EPISODE 9: CONCLUSION (FOR NOW)
Dylan [VOICEOVER INTRODUCTION]: Hey. I'm Dylan Marron and this is Conversations with People Who Hate Me, the show where I usually call up some of the folks who have sent me negative or hateful messages on the internet. Don't worry. This is just the conclusion for now.
I'll be cooking up some new stuff for you very soon. Think of this as the end of a chapter and not the end of a whole book. So to close this chapter, I won't be calling up people who hate me at all, but actually the people who love the show and wrote to tell me about it.
Okay, before you barf on yourself about how self-indulgent that sounds, it isn't. I promise it's less about compliments and more about how a bunch of people around the world are using this podcast in their own life. We'll meet a man in Argentina who was motivated to have a difficult conversation with his girlfriend after listening to the show. The schoolteacher who's using this podcast as a lesson plan and even a local politician in coal country Pennsylvania. And at the end of the episode, you'll hear from a conservative listener who says he agrees more with my guests than he does with me and yet he is still a fan.
Before we get into those calls, I wanted to start by thanking my guests. Yeah. The eight people who sent me the negative or hateful messages that allowed this podcast to happen in the first place.
We started with Chris, the Trump supporter who called me a "piece of shit" in a Facebook message.
Chris [CLIP FROM ‘EPISODE 1: YOU’RE A PIECE OF SHIT’]: Let me take that back. Let me take that back. I didn't mean to call you a piece of shit. I apologize for calling you a piece of shit.
Dylan [VOICEOVER INTRODUCTION]: You met Josh, a soon-to-be graduating high school who online said I was a moron, but in our call revealed to me that he got bullied all throughout high school.
Dylan [CLIP FROM ‘EPISODE 2: HURT PEOPLE HURT PEOPLE’]: Josh, you said that you're about to graduate high school. Right?
Josh [CLIP FROM ‘EPISODE 2: HURT PEOPLE HURT PEOPLE’]: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dylan [CLIP FROM ‘EPISODE 2: HURT PEOPLE HURT PEOPLE’]: How is high school for you?
Josh [CLIP FROM ‘EPISODE 2: HURT PEOPLE HURT PEOPLE’]: Am I allowed to use the H-E-double-hockey-stick word?
Dylan [CLIP FROM ‘EPISODE 2: HURT PEOPLE HURT PEOPLE’]: Oh, yeah. You're allowed to.
Josh [CLIP FROM ‘EPISODE 2: HURT PEOPLE HURT PEOPLE’]: It was hell.
Dylan [CLIP FROM ‘EPISODE 2: HURT PEOPLE HURT PEOPLE’]: Really?
Josh [CLIP FROM ‘EPISODE 2: HURT PEOPLE HURT PEOPLE’]: And it's still hell right now, even though it's only two weeks left.
Dylan [VOICEOVER INTRODUCTION]: And to keep it balanced, that was followed up by Matthew, a fellow gay liberal who publicly dragged me by claiming that I represented the worst aspects of liberalism. He later admitted that he had been publicly dragged himself.
Dylan [CLIP FROM ‘EPISODE 3: THE CALL IS COMING FROM INSIDE THE HOUSE’]: Matthew, you posted this pretty publicly and you also tagged me in it, so I saw it right when you posted it. Have you ever been publicly dragged?
Matthew [CLIP FROM ‘EPISODE 3: THE CALL IS COMING FROM INSIDE THE HOUSE’]: I have been and I just said, "No. I don't care."
Dylan [CLIP FROM ‘EPISODE 3: THE CALL IS COMING FROM INSIDE THE HOUSE’]: And did you not care?
Matthew [CLIP FROM ‘EPISODE 3: THE CALL IS COMING FROM INSIDE THE HOUSE’]: Oh, well, I cared. Yes.
Dylan [VOICEOVER INTRODUCTION]: There was Anna, a woman who told me that facts didn't care about my feelings and we found some surprising common ground.
Anna [CLIP FROM ‘EPISODE 4: FACTS & FEELINGS’]: Even last night I was engaging in intellectual discussion, hopefully, on Facebook and I was called a racist. I have a picture of me and my cat on Facebook and I was told to go have sex with my cat. That's so not necessary.
Dylan [CLIP FROM ‘EPISODE 4: FACTS & FEELINGS’]: No. Also a cat cannot consent, so I would appreciate that you did not have sex with your cat. Please don't do that.
Anna [CLIP FROM ‘EPISODE 4: FACTS & FEELINGS’]: I wouldn't consent to that either.
Dylan [CLIP FROM ‘EPISODE 4: FACTS & FEELINGS’]: Okay, great. Look, we found our common ground. We don't think you should have sex with your cat.
Anna [CLIP FROM ‘EPISODE 4: FACTS & FEELINGS’]: Yay!
Dylan [VOICEOVER INTRODUCTION]: And then there was Bradley, a kind, devout Christian who said he didn't hate me at all, but only hated the sin of homosexuality, which he tried to explain was an addiction that I could cure.
Bradley [CLIP FROM ‘EPISODE 5: THE SEEDS OF HATE’]: It sounds like I'm an asshole, but it's just what I believe. And it's not fair. It's not. But if you look at the Bible and you go with the different parts, like, yes, it is not acceptable. But there's also things that I do that are unacceptable.
Dylan [VOICEOVER INTRODUCTION]: James, a stand-up comedian from Australia, told me I was condescending as fuck in a comment, but then opened up about the state he was in when he wrote the comment.
James [CLIP FROM ‘EPISODE 6: THE GOOD TROLL’]: I was fully drunk and on drugs. Like, alcohol is the hardest thing to give up, but I haven't had a drink for a long time now.
Dylan [VOICEOVER INTRODUCTION]: After saying online that I was an idiot and the reason people think all gay men are fairies and flaming queens, Lee, a gay man himself, shared some surprising details about his life.
Lee [CLIP FROM ‘EPISODE 7: SISSIES & FLAMING QUEENS’]: My father was shot and killed when I was 21 months old. It was actually, from what I'm told, was he was actually shot mainly because of me.
Dylan [VOICEOVER INTRODUCTION]: And finally, there was E, who told me to kill myself in a public comment. Turns out that sentiment hit closer to home for him than I would've ever thought.
E [CLIP FROM ‘EPISODE 8: (DON’T) KILL YOURSELF’]: I'd rather not go into the specifics, but there was a time, I think I was 14 or whatever and I would almost try to kill myself.
Dylan [VOICEOVER INTRODUCTION]: So these were the eight people who made up my guests. I'm grateful to know them beyond the digital negativity they sent my way. And I respect them too. I mean, it takes guts to publicly own up to something you wrote on the internet and they did. There were so many people I invited to be on the show who rejected the invitation immediately. Some never responded, even though I saw they read it. And some people even agreed to be on the show, but then blocked me when they feared it was a set-up. Before we get on with this episode, there is one frequent question that I want to publicly answer. A bunch of people have asked why the show is called Conversations with People Who Hate Me, when every one of my guests have said they don't hate me. Well, that's technically true, because at the end of our calls all of my guests have all said that no, they don't hate me. But to be real, getting negative comments online can feel like hate. I've been on my way to a meeting when a notification informs me that someone thinks I'm a moron and I'll quickly have to rebuild my confidence I temporarily lost so that the comment doesn't follow me into the meeting. I've woken up after a great night of sleep and rolled over to my nightstand only to see that someone somewhere in the world thinks that I'm a piece of shit and wrote to me to share that thought. I don't recommend starting your day like that. And after sharing a piece of work I feel particularly proud of, I might scroll down to the comments to see what people are saying, when I see that someone thinks that I'm an idiot and three people have liked that comment, I've got to tell you, the first thing that comes to my head isn't, "Well, I should keep making creative work." So without the benefit of an extended conversation, these comments do feel like hate. So there's that answer. And for those of you thinking, "Dylan, just get off the internet. It's an awful place." Well, I disagree and here is why.
[Phone rings. Music fades. Guest picks up.]
Chris: Hello?
Dylan: Hi, is this Chris?
Chris: Yes, this is.
Dylan: Oh, do you go by Christopher or Chris? Which do you prefer?
Chris: Chris. It's shorter.
Dylan [VOICEOVER]: Chris reached out to me after the eighth episode of the podcast when I told my guests that I thought that being in touch with your emotions wasn't a weakness but a strength.
Chris: I'm currently working with a life coach to try and improve myself and, at least preliminarily, they believe myself to be on the autistic spectrum. I often find that I have trouble in a lot of social situations and dealing with feedback from people. I respond really negative and think, "Oh, I just need to be stronger." And then you were saying that being in touch with your emotions isn't a weakness, that that actually is something positive and that really connected with me. You've been helping me by proxy, because one of the things that's been happening is that there's been trying to develop a coping mechanism for me when I've had bad days. To just be able to talk through stuff with someone, but sometimes you just can't talk through things. So what I've actually been imagining being doing is just imagine being on your show and just having you listen to me.
Dylan: Oh my god.
Chris: And just that's just really helped, because when I get up above a certain anxiety level, I tend to get into a bit of a cycle. So all I'm just left alone is with my own bad thoughts. I don't necessarily have anywhere to go. So then what I sometimes do is I will just imagine that all I'm doing is just talking through everything that's been going on and why I'm feeling this way. It's able to use you almost as a friendly voice, so then just being able to imagine someone just sitting there and listening to it.
Dylan [VOICEOVER]: I definitely relate to Chris about the anxiety. Producing the show has made me more anxious than I ever anticipated. My cooldown method was home renovation shows. Oof. A tight turnaround on a 'Fixer Upper,' a blanket and a snack, that's my ideal Saturday night. So, I also heard from a man named James, an elected official in central Pennsylvania.
James: Well, I come from right outside of Pittsburgh. I went to college about an hour and a half northwest of there and while I was there, I switched to political science.
Dylan: Oh, wow.
James: And decided to run for borough council. I was able to actually win.
Dylan: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
James: Beating a two-term incumbent and that's where I sit now.
Dylan: Oh, my god. Whoa! James, congratulations.
James: Thank you. Yeah, I was the first student in the state system of higher education to be elected. We are a college town that also has deep roots in the coal industry. What really hit home for me when listening to your podcast was the conversations that you were having were the same ones that I was witnessing in my everyday life.
Dylan [VOICEOVER]: I also got an email from a man named Dave. The subject line was, "I'm a straight, white man ... Thank you." So I set up a call with him.
Dave: Hello, this is Dave.
Dylan: Oh, hey, Dave. How are you? It's Dylan Marron.
Dave: Hey, Dylan. How are you?
Dylan: I'm good. Look, we finally made it on the phone!
Dave: We did. You got off the subway.
Dylan [VOICEOVER]: To quickly explain. I had to cancel my initial call with Dave because I was stuck on the subway. He graciously understood.
Dylan: So Dave, hi. You wrote me a very sweet email and the subject line of that email was, "I'm a straight, white male ... Thank you!" [both laugh] So Dave, what inspired you to write that sweet message?
Dave: Well, if I'm being brutally honest, I come from upper middle-class white community and with everything that's going on, it's good to actually hear people having these conversations.
Dylan: Are there any difficult conversations in your community or with people you know that you've either been putting off or you feel that you need to have?
Dave: Umm... I mean, yeah. I guess, immediately for me would be my family. My dad is pretty ultra-conservative.
Dylan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). How do you and your dad talk about politics, or where do you talk about politics?
Dave: [laughs] Usually it basically only comes up when we're drinking and that's like the worst time to bring it up.
Dylan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Right. Right. You're well-lubricated and you're like, "Fuck it. I'll say it."
Dave: Yeah.
Dylan [VOICEOVER]: Dave unknowingly hit on a huge theme of the listener emails I've received. So many people told me about how this show related to their relationship with their fathers. Here's Brantley.
Brantley: After every episode, it's like I was about to explode with thoughts and feeling. It was triggering for me because I came out nine years ago but I'm still, I have to come out to my dad at least once a year. It's a yearly ritual and it's one of those things where he chooses to not accept it, I guess, so therefore, things are never really discussed or talked about. I've always had to be silent about my sexuality with my younger siblings and my dad's argument has always been, "You know, they're too young. They don't know yet. I don't know how they're going to respond to it." Which is ridiculous. But I think at the time, I was just in this whole, "Well, it's my dad. I want to respect him and I don't understand it, but whatever." So I kind of lived in that for a while. Then finally it's like, "No, this isn't right. This isn't okay." The podcast has been a very useful tool for me to talk to my dad in a way that I'm able to stand up for how I feel and what I think. And also, even though at times I definitely want to, not yell and make things worse to where we're just arguing and yelling at each other and screaming [laughs]. It's interesting because I feel like there's a change there in the tone of our conversations. It's usually in the past it's been I'll bring something up, whether it's an example of being ignored when I go home for the holidays or not being acknowledged. It's up to him. He knows where I stand. He knows my door is always open, but I told him, I was like, "Look. You've got to do the reaching out here. You're the dad, you know?"
Dylan [VOICEOVER]: And here's Natasha, who also thought about the podcast in a really tough moment with her dad.
Natasha: Well, I've been listening to the podcast religiously and I thought about it because I was recently back in New York visiting for work and to see friends and family. I had dinner with my father and just a little background. I'm multi-racial. My father is white. My mother is black and Brazilian, but so he's my white parent. At dinner with my father, he just made a very flippant comment that made me uncomfortable, but didn't come off to me as a hateful comment, just ignorant. I sort of very calmly called him out on it. I was just like, "Hey, that's called a racist! Maybe don't say that!" And his response was actually far more upsetting than the actual comment that I was responding to. He sort of jumped into this extremely defensive, "How dare you call me a racist?" Which isn't what I said. I said, "That was a racist thing to say." I waited a day and sent him an email and a week later, he responded with almost like an out of office, automated message that was like, "I'm too busy right now to read your email. It may take me a week or two." Honestly, listening to your podcast has been helpful, especially when thinking about the situation and the way that I've attempted to engage with the situation and not just write my father off as a terrible person. Because hearing similar things come out of the mouths of these strangers that you're engaging with, it's just reminding me that no matter what every ... like, my father's a human, which means that he can make terrible mistakes, just as these people have. And if you're able to have a civil conversation with strangers who just said horrible things to you, that I can hopefully have the patience to continue to try to do that with my father to get things back on track. So in that way, it's been hugely therapeutic and also just like a good reminder to me that how much work we have to do, but also how important that work is in general.
Dylan [VOICEOVER]: So Natasha's bringing something up that hits pretty close to home for me. A lot of the unofficial training I had for this show was through conversations I would have with my mom. And no, my mom had never written a hateful comment about me on the internet. She's an amazing queen and definitely listening to this, so hi, mom. I love you so much. But our early conversations about race were very difficult. I'm bi-racial and my mom is white and as I know from many of my other multi-racial friends, there is this unique discomfort that comes from the early talks between white parents and their non-white children that deal with race. So if I had to think back to where I cut my teeth on practicing these difficult conversations, I'd certainly count those late nights around our dining room table. But just to see if she's cool with me sharing this, I'm going to quickly ask her right now.
Glenn: Sweetie, hold on. I'm putting on my headset.
Dylan: Okay.
Glenn: One sec. [Audio changes to headset audio]. Hey.
Dylan: Hi. How are you?
Glenn: I'm fine! How are you?
Dylan: I'm good. I have a question for you.
Glenn: Okay.
Dylan: In the podcast, I was going to talk about how my training ground for having difficult conversations was the conversations we had about race. Are you comfortable with that?
Glenn: Of course I am, sweetie. Yes. Oh my gosh.
Dylan: That doesn't feel invasive at all?
Glenn: No!
Dylan: Or you feel okay with that being on the airwaves?
Glenn: Oh, my god, yes.
Dylan: Okay. Because we did have difficult conversations about race.
Glenn: Oh, yeah. We did but I wish I had been able to have them earlier. I wish I had been able to-
Dylan: Yeah, but that's okay. We're all human and we're living our best lives, you know?
Glenn: Right. Right, right, right, right. Yeah, I know. Totally.
Dylan: Yeah. I was wondering if you wanted to record the throw to the ad and then the coming back from the ad for the podcast.
Glenn: Sure. Well, you mean the throw to the ad like saying, "And now it's time for our sponsor"?
Dylan: Yeah. Exactly that.
Glenn: Yeah?
Dylan: Uh-huh (affirmative).
Glenn: Oh, my gosh. Sure. Yeah.
Dylan: Okay.
Glenn: I'd love to.
Dylan: Well, I have some news for you. I've been recording this conversation so that you already did it. You don't have to do anything else.
Glenn: [Burst of laughter] That's great!
[BREAK]
Glenn: Cool! What else can I do?
Dylan: You can then throw back to the show after the ads.
Glenn: I would love to!
Dylan: Okay. [Glenn laughs] Can you just practice, "And now let's get back to the show"?
Glenn: And now let's get back to the show.
Dylan: That was great!
Glenn: Yeah?
Dylan: Yeah, [Glenn laughs] you did it!
Glenn: Oh, my gosh. I'm a star.
Dylan [VOICEOVER]: Another cool thing I learned from listener emails was that this podcast was being used in high school classrooms.
WA Teacher: I'm a teacher and I - so I listen to it. And it actually fit to what I was teaching in school. I'm in central Washington. Pretty small town, farm town. I teach freshmen and sophomores. And my sophomores are actually learning right now how to write a podcast.
Dylan: Oh!
WA Teacher: That's pretty cool.
Dylan: Wow! That is the most ... Oh, my god.
WA Teacher: Yeah, I know.
Dylan: When I was a freshman and sophomore a podcast wasn't even a word that existed in the zeitgeist or at all.
WA Teacher: Yeah. It's kind of incredible. And then my freshmen, I teach them what social justice is in the spring. Then actually, your podcast is pretty much what their final is, to learn to have a conversation with a person with the exact opposite belief as them. So I've taught that unit a couple times and it was a little difficult to teach it without offending my students. Because I have a pretty diverse group of students. Everything from extremely conservative to extremely liberal and I have everything from straight, white students to students in the process of a transition.
Dylan: Oh, wow.
WA Teacher: Gender change. Yeah. And so it was-
Dylan: This is all in one classroom.
WA Teacher: Yes.
Dylan: Oh, my god.
WA Teacher: Exactly. Yeah.
Dylan: Wow.
WA Teacher: So that was the whole point of teaching social justice, so they know where they stand. Your podcast is really helpful because it's significantly more relatable to them. [Dylan exclaims] And what's going on in their lives.
Dylan [VOICEOVER]: And it turns out a psychology professor is using it as well.
Dylan: What inspired you to reach out to me about the podcast?
Psych Professor: I'm a professor of clinical psychology, so I teach other psychologists, or psychologists in training. And I thought that what you were doing had a number of things that were skills and characteristics that were applicable to psychologists. So I did bring it into my class as well. And when I'm listening to the podcasts, I feel my heart skip a little bit as the Skype sound is going and you're calling these people after they've said these very difficult or hurtful things. And I kind of noticed that emotional arousal happening. And in psychotherapy, that same internal experience is happening. Essentially, you're having difficult conversations. So I think that that is what I connected with most, the importance of having difficult conversations for the purpose of achieving some goal.
Dylan [VOICEOVER]: This podcast apparently made its way around the world. Here's a listener from Argentina.
Fede: Hi, Dylan.
Dylan: Hi! How are you? Is this Fede?
Fede: Yes!
Dylan: Hi! How are you?
Fede: I'm fine. I'm real excited to do this. Also a little nervous, but mostly excited.
Dylan: Oh, don't be nervous. Like the more you you are, the better.
Fede: Okay. Okay. I wanted to first start by apologizing to you and all your listeners because I'm going to totally murder the English language. I'm going to invent some words.
Dylan: That's okay. It's a colonial language anyway.
Fede: [laughs] Yeah, that's true.
Dylan: Yeah, so you know what? It needed its comeuppance, so I'm happy with however you interpret the English language.
Fede: Thanks. I am real excited because I really like the idea of your show.
Dylan: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Fede: But first, I have to be sincere. At first when I first heard the trailer, I first felt that it was a stupid idea. [Dylan laughs] I said, "Oh, no. This is going to go so bad!" But you really surprised me that-
Dylan: Oh, wow. Well, thank you. So this podcast has traveled all the way down the globe to Argentina. That's pretty amazing.
Fede: Yes, yes. I'm not the only one here who listens to the podcast.
Dylan: Oh! Wow.
Fede: And some of my friends do too.
Dylan: Well, hello Argentina! Maybe that's the title of my next podcast. [Fede laughs] So Fede, you wrote to me, I think like a few weeks ago.
Fede: Yes.
Dylan: What inspired you to write to me?
Fede: So the thing is I have a girlfriend.
Dylan: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Fede: And let's call her "Jackie," to keep her anonymous.
Dylan: Of course. "Jackie."
Fede: We love each other. We really love each other. We share a lot of things, but we have really different worldviews. At first we decided really not to talk about them. But it started to become a problem. I first felt that while there was no way about it, that we had just really different views and there was nothing we could agree on and there was no sense in talking. But when I listened to your podcast, I felt, "Well, if he could talk to all these people who are clearly on opposite sides of thought, the thought line, whatever you can call it, and I said, "Well, okay. This is my chance." So we start talking and I have to admit, it was really awkward. It's still awkward but it's okay. I mean, it has to be. It's okay for it to be awkward. It's okay to, as you said, not have like a happy ending with a ribbon to tie the conversation and ... But having those differences, it's part of what, I don't know, makes human nature beautiful, isn't it?
Dylan [VOICEOVER]: And here's Mina, a listener from Germany.
Dylan: So Mina, here we are!
Mina: Hey! [laughs]
Dylan: Hi! How are ya?
Mina: [laughing] Yeah, I'm fine. Yeah.
Dylan: Yeah? Are you a little nervous?
Mina: Yeah, a bit.
Dylan: Okay. Don't be nervous. Look, I'm just a human on Skype. Here I am.
Mina: Yeah. Yeah, I know. It's just about the language, you know?
Dylan: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Mina: Always a bit different to speak up in another language.
Dylan: I totally get that. You're doing great.
Mina: Thanks.
Dylan: But you don't need my approval. So Mina, where am I speaking to you right now? Where are you?
Mina: Yeah, I'm in Berlin, in Germany. We are in really different times at the moment. It all started to get really, really bad about two years ago. When the Syrian war was on the top point and they were coming, a lot of refugees, to Europe and especially to Germany. And our chancellor, Angela Merkel, decided to open the borders and to let more refugees in and help them. A lot of people didn't like it and they were probably some were just scared. But the most people got very racist. I started to avoid difficult conversations. It started with my family and with my friends and every time when there were political terms, I just stayed quiet and I was so tired, you know? I was so tired of always speaking up against them and standing alone with this. I found out about your podcast in a Facebook ad and there was a video showing up on my timeline and I thought, "This looks interesting." I listened to it and I was really surprised about how you could talk so nicely to those people and so open-minded. Yeah, it really impressed me. I thought we have to talk, you know?
Dylan: Yeah.
Mina: We have to talk to each other and we just can't stand it like it is at the moment. I think maybe just talking, it's not the answer for everything, but I think it's a start.
Dylan [VOICEOVER]: I also got to hear from Jo in Israel.
Jo: Yes, I know. I found your podcast through Welcome to Night Vale. And by the time I listened to the episode that promoted your podcast, there were about three episodes up. And I listened to all of them in a row and I was just really touched by it. I don't know if I can say exactly why. Well, I'm out to all my friends and they're fine with me. Or I wouldn't still be friends with them and I'm not out to my family and that's okay for now. But at work I'm out and I work with a lot of not-so-friendly people.
Dylan: Hmm.
Jo: So I've had a lot of that type of conversation but never quite as calmly as you do. It was just really nice to hear someone having that sort of conversation and, I guess, getting somewhere.
Dylan [VOICEOVER]: You know, it really is cool to hear that this show has been accessible to people all around the world. But when I initially hoped that this podcast would travel far, I wasn't only thinking in the metrics of miles, but also how far it could travel ideologically. Could it reach people with different views? Was this podcast ever going to reverberate past the liberal echo chambers that I occupy? Well, I got that answer from George.
George: Hello.
Dylan: Oh, hey. Is this George?
George: Yes, it is.
Dylan: Oh, we finally got it to work. This is exciting. [George laughs] So George, why after we released the first episode, you sent me a very, very sweet Facebook message. And something you said in the Facebook message really stuck out to me. You said, "I would say I am more similar to the people you call than yourself." And then you said a lot of nice things about the podcast. So, George, what inspired you to reach out?
George: The first thing I really do appreciate about what you're doing is that there is no hostility. There's no attacking. It's just straight listening and trying to have a conversation about things that need to be talked about.
Dylan: You said that you are more like some of the people I talked to than you were like me. So in only as many details as you're comfortable sharing, tell me about you.
George: I guess I was more referring to the social justice warrior aspect.
Dylan: [laughs] Right. Right. Right. Yeah.
George: I definitely wouldn't consider myself that. I served in the Army, although I do live in California. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love my guns. I love all that kind of stuff so ...
Dylan: Proud supporter of the Second Amendment.
George: I am. This type of activism that you're doing now, I feel will reach a lot more people because everything people see on the media and everything else, it's hype, it's for entertainment. It's not actual to reach anybody. I feel what you're doing will benefit the cause way more than anyone is doing currently.
Dylan: So what is your take on what's going on in the NFL right now with people taking a knee during the National Anthem?
George: I personally feel it's an unnecessary disrespect to the country. I just don't understand why that is the way they chose to promote their cause. I have no problem with people protesting bad things that are going on in society. I mean, protesting has changed society for the better in many ways throughout history. So it's not the fact that the protesting that's upsetting. It's just the way they're doing it and who they're protesting. Because it's not the flag, it's not the United States that's, I guess, oppressing them or whatever it is. If it's the local police or if they feel it's just the legislation or whatever they feel is the cause of it is the problem, not the greater thing.
Dylan: Yeah. So not to put words in your mouth, but only to confirm what you're saying. You prefer this podcast as a form of activism to the idea of taking a knee during the National Anthem.
George: I do. I prefer it because I feel like it will change people's minds. It's not going to be an immediate shutdown, "I don't like this, I'm not going to listen to this guy because he's an idiot."
Dylan: Yeah. The kind of the way I see it is kneeling during the National Anthem is only a symbolic way of talking about something. I don't think they're protesting the flag. I don't think they're protesting the anthem. The way I see it is that Colin Kaepernick is protesting the injustice against black people, which is like one and the same as the founding history of this country.
George: I felt when Kaepernick started this whole thing off, I felt if he would've went to the chief of police in San Francisco and said, "I want to get together with you, your department. I'll bring my team and we'll try to get some of the people from the city to come out for a barbeque, just a day of games at a park or whatever," and just kind of keep that thing up and have that come in. I think that relationship that would be built would do worlds more than what they're doing right now.
Dylan: Well, I 100% agree with part of that sentiment, [George laughs] which is that [Dylan laughs] doing that would be very helpful, right? What I do disagree with is that it's the only way. So, for example, while it is incredibly flattering to me that you think that this podcast is a better form of activism than taking a knee, I have to respectfully decline that, almost because I feel like they don't even need to be compared. And here's why I think this. I think symbolic activism, as taking the knee is symbolic activism just like to bring up a very famous one, is like Rosa Parks. Rosa Parks sitting on the front of a bus, that I think both you and I would agree was a good thing to do, was the symbolic act of activism that started a bigger conversation, right? I don't want to ...
George: No, and that example, it's perfect because I believe that was something that was very justified for her. But in doing that, she was not disrespecting anybody else except the feelings of the white people who were upset with her sitting there.
Dylan: I don't know. I don't know. Because I just feel like what I really wish was that the same platforms of media were around now as when Rosa Parks took a seat on the bus, [George chuckles] because I think you would be seeing the same exact stuff. I think the commentators at the time were like, "She's disrespecting order. She's disrespecting tradition." You know what I mean?
George: Yep.
Dylan: And that would've been hard for them to kind of wrap their heads around. Whereas after the distance of time, it feels like everyone is in full agreement except for horrendous people, [George chuckles] that what Rosa Parks did was right. I really do believe that one day there will be a statue to Colin Kaepernick [George laughs] and everyone will be focusing on whether or not ... Like everyone will 100% agree, of course except for the horrendous people, that, "Colin Kaepernick was an American hero and he politely kneeled just to start the dialogue of injustice. But, oh, my god, these kids today, they're just brats and they're just spoiled people." [George laughs] I really believe that, you know?
George: I know. It's not a far fetch though, but I pray that there will never be a statue of Colin Kaepernick. But ...
Dylan: Okay. But maybe you'll change your mind. I want you to be open to that, but I don't want to force it on you, because here we are.
George: That's why I said, I believe you are going to change more minds because obviously the national attention that he's getting, he'll reach more people, but I believe will change less minds.
Dylan: Again, that is truly so flattering to hear, that I would even be compared with a national figure like that. But again, I think you need both types of social activism. Because I definitely see this podcast as a form of social activism but I don't think it's the only one. You know what I mean? I think even you could argue that I shouldn't be just broadcasting my phone conversations that I have with people who send me hate messages. Why don't I get out in the streets and make a change of my own? I've gotten those emails. I got an email from someone that said she really did not like the podcast and she said that if I really cared about social justice, I would go into small town journalism and get paid $10 an hour. And my response to her was like, "You're right. That's an amazing form of activism. But this is what I'm better suited to do." You know what I mean?
George: I disagree with that, because I believe you're at the level now where you can reach a vast majority but still be, I guess, approachable.
Dylan: Mm-hmm.
George: That it's still ... I mean, a small town paper, whatever it is, you're going to meet, what? A thousand, couple thousand people?
Dylan: Yeah.
George: The podcast, I mean that it's limitless.
Dylan: Yeah. But still I think now I'm taking the side of this woman who hates the podcast, [both laugh] but not to just play devil's advocate here, but I do think that is a cool form of activism, meaning bipartisan activism, just to be a small town journalist. I think small town journalism is totally necessary and I do think that's really cool. It's just the same response that I would give to you about the Colin Kaepernick thing of the fact that I think you need both. Right? I think we need to understand that we need all levels. I guess this feels appropriate because you're saying you love the podcast. You love it as a form of activism, and yet still, there's something we disagree on.
George: [laughs] I think one of my biggest things is that that should be okay.
Dylan: George, any questions you have for me? Concerns, critiques, things you want to say?
George: Well, let me ask you this. What is your take on what's going on in Berkeley?
Dylan: In Berkeley, I don't believe in blocking people from speaking places. To be clear of why, is that because that could so easily be turned around against the other group, right?
George: Yes.
Dylan: Then when the other group is trying to speak, then the other side could be like, "Well, we're going to silence you because we think what you're saying is bullshit." I do think that the First Amendment can be very much abused by people, especially in online spaces and through death threats and rape threats and harassment and all of that stuff. So, like... okay. Let me put it this way. I am a firm, firm, firm supporter of the First Amendment, but I think it should come with a little extra clause that's like you have the freedom of speech as long as you're going to match that equally to how much you listen. Like if you legally were bound to whenever you said anything you wanted, you had to hear an opposing viewpoint of that or an alternate perspective. I think the world would be a radically different place.
George: I completely agree with you. [George laughs]
Dylan: Well, great. Look at that! Oh, my god! Look at us agreeing. We're tying up this conversation into a nice little ribbon. [George laughs] Well, George, I guess, thank you so much for the kind words you said about the podcast. Thank you for listening. I am truly humbled at the idea that you think that this podcast is better than Colin Kaepernick's protest. I also humbly disagree. But either way, I just want to say that it's been a pleasure talking to you.
George: It has been a big pleasure. I appreciate the phone call.
Dylan: Well, George, have a great night and I'll talk to you soon. Okay?
George: I appreciate it. You too.
Dylan: All right. Have a good one, George.
George: Bye.
Dylan: Bye.
[Phone call ends with a hang up sound. The drumbeat from ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals kicks in.]
Dylan [VOICEOVER CLOSING CREDITS]: Well, that's it for now. If you liked this show, share it with your friends and tell the world about it. And if you feel you have the energy and can do it safely, have a difficult conversation of your own and let it be awkward. That kind of means it's working. Just keep in mind that one conversation won't immediately fix everything or maybe anything, but it's a start. I'm Dylan Marron and it has been an honor to make this show for you. Thanks so much for listening and stay tuned for more to come. Conversations with People Who Hate Me is a production of Night Vale Presents. Christy Gressman is the executive producer. Vincent Cacchione is the sound engineer and mixer. Alen Rahimic is the production manager. The theme song is These Dark Times by Caged Animals. The logo was designed by Rob Wilson and this podcast was created, produced and hosted by me, Dylan Marron. Special thanks to Night Vale Presents Director of Marketing, Adam Cecil, our publicist, Christine Ragasa and also Dustin Flannery McCoy, Rob Silcox, Mark Maloney and production assistants Alison Goldberger and Emily Moler. Thank you to all of those who gave encouragement throughout this process and also a thank you to those who warned me against doing this project. I did it anyway. And yes, thank you to those who wrote the hateful messages, comments and posts that inspired me to turn one-way negativity into productive two-way conversations. Thank you so much for listening. If you loved this show, tell all of your friends about it and if you hated this show, maybe write to me and tell me why you hated it and who knows, maybe you'll be a guest on the show. Just remember there is a human on the other side of the screen.
[Music fades.]
Fede: Well, I have a question for you.
Dylan: Yeah.
Fede: It's about the song in your intro.
Dylan: Yeah.
Fede: Why did you pick that song?
Dylan: The title is called These Dark Times.
Fede: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dylan: And it's written by Vin, who is my audio producer, who basically makes it sound all good and stuff, even from a Skype recording. I picked it because, one, I loved the tune. I could not get the tune out of my head.
Dylan: Also because the lyrics, I felt got to the crux of why I was doing this podcast, which is the refrain is that we'll make it through these dark times. And it feels like these are very dark times, right? For me, at least.
Dylan: I feel like the fact that it's we'll make it through these dark times, that it's the first person plural, is beautiful. Maybe a bunch of listeners right now are like, "Oh, my god. This is the cheesiest shit I've ever heard." But I feel that and I feel like it is going to have to take all of us to make progress together, even the people who we feel opposed to.
Fede: I don't know. Something makes me uncomfortable with saying these are dark times.
Dylan: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Fede: Because I feel like now more than ever we have available the most candles and lanterns, any different light sources than we have ever had in the whole history of humanity. Maybe we are just pointing them in the wrong direction. I feel like your podcast is kind of like signaling, "Hey, that way. You, the dude with the light, that way."
['These Dark Times' by Caged Animals plays in full]
LYRICS:
All day we sweat but we forget when we go home
We turn the switch off on our fears and let go
But late at night at night there are two evil twins in us
They’re just too curious
Oooh we’re Racing
Racing through These Dark Times
Oooh we’re Fading
Fading In These Dark Times
I wasted so much time
I had so much to hide
I almost lost my mind
Living through These Dark Times
I want to make it out alive from my hometown
I want to take a ride and feel my heart pound
Oooh I’m Racing
Racing From These Dark Times
Oooh I’m Fading
Fading In These Dark Times
There’s no more light
We’re holding tight
We’re bound by blood
Through these dark times
Together
Ooooh We’re Racing
Racing through These Dark Times
And it’s hard to take it
But we’re gunna make it through These Dark Times
Make It Through These Dark Times
Make It Through These Dark Times