EPISODE 8: (DON’T) KILL YOURSELF
Dylan: According to you, I "should be put on an island to die."
E: Looking back at it, it wasn't the most informed or appropriate comment to make.
Dylan: Got it.
[Instrumental of ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals begins to play.]
Dylan [VOICEOVER INTRODUCTION]: Hey, I'm Dylan Marron, and this is Conversations with People Who Hate Me, the show where I call up some of the folks who have said hateful or negative things about me on the Internet.
Before we begin an important content warning: Today's show talks about suicide, both in my guest's initial comment and in our conversation for this podcast. If you're not comfortable with hearing about this topic, feel free to turn this episode off whenever you want. I won't be offended. Also, if you or someone you know is having suicidal thoughts, there is no shame, but there is help. For listeners in the United States, you can call the National Suicide Prevention Hotline 24 hours a day, seven days a week at 1-(800-273-8255. That's 1-(800)-273-8255. There's also the Crisis Text Line. Just text "Talk," T-A-L-K, to 741741 from anywhere in the USA anytime about any type of crisis. For international listeners, go to IASP.info to help find a crisis center near you.
All right. I promise, we will get to the episode very soon, but before we do, I have some people to thank. I wanted to make sure that I dealt with this topic with as much sensitivity as possible, and the following suicide prevention experts gave me invaluable guidance on how to do that. So, thank you to Brett Wean at the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention, Allyson Chung at The Jed Foundation, Elissa Gross and Rachel Burgreen.
Okay. Let's do this. For any of us who have spent any time in comment sections, we know all too well that people often hurl the barb, "Kill yourself," to something or someone they don't agree with. I've seen everything in the book, and yes, I've seen it directed at me. Commenters have also told me to drink bleach and others have straight up just told me to kill myself. Apologies to those commenters because I have no plans to do either.
Now, even though I've developed a thick skin to these comments, when I read them, I am so thankful I never received them as a kid. And I say that because suicide is something I actually contemplated as a kid. Now, to be very clear, I never attempted suicide and I don't want to co-opt the experience of those who have, but I did think about it. In the isolation of my teen and preteen years, and even a few dark moments of adulthood, I sometimes felt so alone, so worthless, that my mind would go to the darkest places. Fortunately, I was helped out of those places by people who loved me--thanks, mom and dad--and just the good old-fashioned passage of time.
But however far out of that dark place I may be, I remember it well and I often think about the people still inside. So, when I read public comments that tell me to kill myself, I think about a few people. I think about who is reading them and inadvertently pushed further into that dark place because of it. I also think about a younger me and how I would have dealt with it. But there's a third group I think about, too. I always wonder who is writing these comments.
So, today, I'm speaking to someone who, yes, told me to kill myself, and he has chosen to only be referred to as "E". A little while ago, E posted this comment under a video of mine, "Kill yourself, you victim complex-having bitch boy. I love gay people, but people like this, no matter their gender, race, or sexuality, should be put on an island to die." So, I'm going to call E right now.
[Phone rings. Music fades. Guest picks up.]
E: Heyoo.
Dylan: Hey, is this E?
E: Yep.
Dylan: Hey, E, how are you? This is Dylan Marron.
E: Hey, man, not too bad. What's going on with you?
Dylan: Oh, just making a podcast, but talking to you, so this feels great. How are you doing?
E: I was going to go for, you know, apply for some jobs later.
Dylan: Oh, nice. What jobs are you looking for?
E: I don't know. I'm going back for my second year at university, so I'd like to have a part-time waiting job.
Dylan: I actually worked in the service industry for a while. I really liked it. So, you said you wait tables?
E: No. I'd like to find a job doing that.
Dylan: Yeah. I liked it a lot. It was like ... I liked being around people. I liked that I was on my feet a lot. I feel like my work now is entirely computer-based. You know what I mean?
E: Yeah, man. I'm really good at dealing with people. I've had customer service jobs before. Yeah.
Dylan: I guess, before we begin, just tell me a little about you, as much as you feel comfortable sharing.
E: Okay. Are we rolling now?
Dylan: Mm-hmm. We're rolling.
E: Cool. I mean, my name is E. I'm a 20-year-old dude living in Canada. I'm in computer science right now at university, joined that. Working on a game in my spare time.
Dylan: Oh, that's amazing. What game?
E: You know Brick Breaker, the old school little paddle-
Dylan: Yeah, exactly.
E: ... and you hit the bricks and stuff? So, it's an app that's going to have guns that shoot back at you, lasers and stuff. It's pretty cool.
Dylan: When did you get into game development?
E: I mean, this is my first time. I'm just working my spare time on it, but it's something that's small scale that I think I can do a really polished, nice version of it.
Dylan: Yeah. Are you a gamer or is this more just a technical interest?
E: Yeah. I mean, I play games, yeah, mostly on my computer.
Dylan: Yeah. Okay. So, E, you wrote in a public comment ... [E recoils and says "ugh"] You said, "Kill yourself, you victim complex-having, [E laughs] bitch boy. I love gay people, but people like this, no matter their gender, race, or sexuality, should be put on an island to die." So, E-
E: Yeah, after you sent me the message requesting to do this whole thing, I went back, and I didn't even remember the comment. I like so many political pages, and there's this one page in particular, and I think it's where I saw your video probably.
Dylan [VOICEOVER]: For context, E is talking about my satirical video, “Happy Heterosexual Pride Day.” Here's a clip:
Dylan [CLIP FROM ‘HAPPY HETEROSEXUAL PRIDE DAY’]: Hi, I'm Dylan Marron, and as an ally, I wanted to celebrate the brave commitment of straight folks to love out loud in a world that encourages them to do so.
E: Looking back at it, it wasn't the most informed or appropriate comment to make, but on the topic of pride days in general, like gay pride, I think it's so sad the way they are. This is an opinion that I think has been expressed a decent amount. For me, what I ... what my ideal is is that gay people are just seen as, "Yeah, they just ... they're different than straight people. They prefer different things. That's no big deal. They're normal people just like anyone else." Well, what pride parades show is that ... It's just this weird, perverted ... I'm not like a super, straight-edge kind of a guy, like, "Ew, that's so sexual," or ... It should just be a nothing thing. Like someone's gay? Okay.
Dylan: Yeah.
E: It's the same way someone has brown hair or blonde hair or whatever. It's just a thing about them. We shouldn't grant them any special privileges and we shouldn't do the opposite in terms of they should have less rights or anything like that.
Dylan: Yeah. Well, I ... Just to give you my perspective ... Again, not to change your mind, but I have you on the phone, so why not share how I see this with you?
E: Yeah I mean you can even try to change my mind. I don't mind that.
Dylan: Okay. Well, here we are. Let's do it.
E: All right.
Dylan: I don't see a pride parade as kind of saying, "We're different." I think what you just said is a really beautiful sentiment about the idea of wishing that we were all just equal. Why can't we just not have a pride parade? What I only want to bring up is that a pride parade is a reaction, right, in a world that is largely not affirming queer identities, the LGBTQ+ experience. A pride parade is kind of a way to gather together as a community and say, "We are proud of who we are in a world that tells us we shouldn't be."
E: I think that in the West, that's generally not true. In terms of worldwide, I do believe ... For sure, there's so many places where gay people don't have the right that they should, so many places in the East in general.
Dylan: Yeah.
E: So, I think that having a parade in terms of ... in support of LGBTQ people worldwide is something that ... Fine. I totally support that. But the thing with the pride parade these days is they're not respected ... they don't have that kind of goal. There's not that focus on gay people that are actually suffering. What they have all turned into is just a focus on being really, really eccentrically gay in the middle of the street.
Dylan: Yeah. That also is its own kind of political act, right? Being gay in the middle of the street in-
E: But it's actually ... But the sad thing about it is it's hurting those people in the East because then people anti-LGBTQ in the East can look at the West and say, "Do you want to become that? That's fucking weird and dumb." When I look at pride parades, they're doing no good. There's nothing necessarily good coming from them. It could be good coming from them, but right now they're just weird shows of just eccentric homosexuality, which ... I mean, it's not like a bad thing to be eccentrically gay or really flamboyant or whatever you want to call it, but it's kind of pointless as I ... the way I see it right now.
Dylan: Yeah. I don't see it as pointless. First of all, I don't know if you've been to a pride parade, but I can tell you from the New York City pride parade, it is so long. It is four hours of people marching, and you would be shocked at how many straight-up normal-looking people are just marching, right? I think the cameras focus on the really showy and entertaining things. I think that is great. I think the showy, entertaining things are a great and amazing part of the queer community, but also just to be real, I wear high-waisted jeans and a long sleeve button down shirt and a sweater on hot days, [E laughs] right, and that's how I go to the parade, and I go with my husband and we're queer and we kiss there and it feels safe to kiss there, but it's like we watch the parade and then we promptly go back to bed so that we're safely in bed by 10:00 PM, right?
E: Okay.
Dylan: I would say we're an, unfortunately, uncool couple [laughs] to be ... to put it plainly. So,-
E: I mean, do you ... Sorry.
Dylan: Yeah.
E: Do you really feel like ... Let's say you're just ... it's just an ordinary day. Do you really feel that afraid to kiss your husband or-
Dylan: 100%. 100%.
E: Has anything bad ever actually happened to you-
Dylan: Yes.
E: ... or anything-
Dylan: Yes.
E: If you don't mind ... Actually, I'm not sure if it's just sad or traumatic for you both, but-
Dylan: No. No, that's okay.
E: What is the worst ... Has anyone ever really been an asshole to you just for a normal, little peck in public or whatever or-
Dylan: Well, you were just saying that the West is accepting and we don't have those kinds of problems here, and I'm just telling you we absolutely feel that way. What I always tell people is we don't hold hands anymore because of all the threats we get. It's lunging and it's-
E: You said, "Lunging?"
Dylan: Lunging, yeah.
E: What does that mean? Doing, like, exercise lunges?
Dylan: (Laughs] Oh, yeah. People just start exercising. It's this nuts thing. People just start exercising around us. I don't get it. (E laughs) No, it's ... I don't know what a different word for it is. It's kind of like puffing your chest out and like stepping forward is what I mean.
E: Oh, okay.
Dylan: Yeah.
E: Like, "Oh, what are these ... These gays here doing what I think they're doing?"
Dylan: Well, but the voice you just gave them sounds kind and they sound completely harmless. These are very strong men who look like they're excited to beat us up.
E: Oh, damn.
Dylan: Also, when I was in your country in Montreal, this is the first trip that my husband and I ever took together, and we're talking Montreal, like gay as fuck Montreal,-
E: Oh, yeah.
Dylan: ... and we were there for two nights. Twice two different cars accelerated towards us as we were holding hands.
E: Really?
Dylan: Yes.
E: Now, I feel like I've learned something now because I really didn't know that.
Dylan: Yeah.
E: I mean, I have a couple of gay friends and I guess I've never asked them that question, like, "Do you experience anything?" They certainly haven't told me anything of that sort.
Dylan: So, I suppose that even with everything I just shared with you, that I am quote/unquote lucky. Other people aren't as lucky, right? If we want to uphold the West as this paradigm of acceptance, I think there's so much that is hidden under the veil of acceptance that people don't see. So, I love going to pride parades and, again, I'm telling you, I wish I were confident enough in my body to be out there in a speedo just dancing around, but I'm there in my mom jeans [E laughs] and my proper sweater just holding my husband's hand. But holding his hand in daylight in a crowd of people itself feels like a radical act because-
E: Really?
Dylan: ...I'm like, "Fuck, this feels safe to do around thousands of people." It's a rare feeling.
E: I just hear ... When you see videos like yours, like the one I commented on, without the context of what you're actually going through, it's just, like ... feels very, like, "Fuck off," you know?
Dylan: E, you closed your comment by saying that people like me should be put on an island to die. Why do you feel that?
E: That was a little extreme. Especially now seeing the whole video and especially now talking to you, I wouldn't say I feel that. A lot of times, I make these more extreme comments as sort of... I'm not sure if "Satire," is the right word, maybe it is. Obviously, I don't think ... Even when I wrote that, I didn't think that it would be just if you were taken and put onto an island to die.
Dylan: Right.
E: I didn't literally believe that to be a thing that should happen.
Dylan: You weren't like, "Let's enact this into law," right?
E: Yeah. (Laughs.)
Dylan: Right.
E: Yeah, exactly. It was more just kind of like a... I probably thought it would be kind of funny or something.
Dylan: Yeah. I guess... Here's my question. Is funny to whom? Who would it be funny to, people reading the comment?
E: I guess. I mean, I'm not going to ... One thing I'm definitely not going to do is try and rationalize it in terms of a serious way because I do not in any way believe that that is ... should be seriously considered as something to do--
Dylan: No, I--
E: ... island.
Dylan: I promise, I'm not taking this literally and I'm not packing my bags to go to that island that you want me to go to. [E laughs] I'm only asking because this is the kind of speak ...these are the kinds of words that we see on the internet all the time, and it's kind of rare to get the person who wrote it and the person who it was directed to talking to each other, right?
E: Yeah, yeah.
Dylan: Did you think that I was going to see this comment?
E: No. Probably ... Your video probably had a bunch of comments on it.
Dylan: Yeah.
E: I was ... I don't know. I was probably just waiting for something on my phone on Facebook and I was like ... Again, I saw your video and it seemed like, "Oh, another one of these condescending things or whatever," and I was just ... "Oh, I'll put a little comment here that's sort of amusing in terms of how ... What's the word? Extreme, maybe, but there's another word I'm looking for.
Dylan: Yeah. Yeah.
E: Outrageous it is. How outrageous it is.
Dylan: E, with all due respect, I would call it outrageous. [Laughs.]
E: Yeah. Yeah, that's what I was saying. Yeah. It was purposely outrageous.
Dylan: Yeah. Again, I am not bringing this up to scold you or anything. You're an adult. You're in control of who you are and what you type on the internet-
E: Oh, yeah.
Dylan: ... but if I had seen this comment directed at me when I was really going through it as a teenager, this comment would have ruined me, right? Now, this is, unfortunately, something that I've grown a thick skin to, so I just scroll past it, you know?
E: Yeah.
Dylan: I don't know. So, I know that we probably see this very differently, that words aren't violence, and I think you even said that earlier in the conversation.
E: I don't remember saying that, but that's definitely a thing that I generally would agree with. Yeah.
Dylan: Okay. So, that's great. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but yes, you believe that words are not violence, right?
E: Yeah.
Dylan: Yet, at the same time ... Let me put it this way. Words can suck-
E: For sure, words can cause distress.
Dylan: Yeah, words can cause distress. I think ... Yeah. I'm bringing this up ... This is not just a hypothetical, but high school kids do get this online, and also, high school kids probably, and younger even, probably scroll past comments like these all the time. Just to open up with you, when I was younger, I never attempted it, but I always entertained that idea. That's how low I felt as a kid.
E: I'd rather not go into the specifics, but I ... There was a time in my life, I was 14 or whatever, and I would almost kind of try to kill myself.
[BREAK]
Dylan [VOICEOVER]: All right. Before we get back to the conversation, a quick content reminder that this is the part of the conversation where we talk about suicide. Also, if you or someone you know is suffering from suicidal thoughts, there's no shame, but there is help. In the USA, you can call 1-(800)-273-8255 or text "TALK," T-A-L-K to 741741. International listeners, visit IASP.info for a list of crisis centers near you. Okay. Let's do it. Let's get back to the conversation.
E: I'd rather not go into the specifics, but I ... There was a time in my life, I was 14 or whatever, and I would almost kind of try to kill myself. I mean, I was a pussy ass kid. I was never taught to be strong. Like it was... which was, I think, just ... I think it's a huge problem in society these days is kids are not taught to be strong-willed.
Dylan: I mean, we're getting into something very complicated, but I just have to say I fully disagree that considering that suggests any kind of weakness, you know?
E: Yeah. At that point, I think I would ... I think we just disagree there. I mean, I know that it was because I was weak-willed. So, that's been a big focus of my life is sort of becoming not that way, becoming somebody who's mentally stronger and just more of a go-getter,-
Dylan: Yeah.
E: ... more aggressive in pursuing life goals, not a lazy, sad, piece of shit, because at the end of the day, if you’re a lazy, sad, piece of shit, which I was for a lot of my life, it's mostly because probably ... I mean, obviously, it's so many different, complicated things, but most likely, for most people, it's because you're weak.
Dylan: I'm about to say I disagree, and I want to be super clear that I have no right or ability to disagree with how you see your life. When I say I disagree with you, it's not like, "I disagree with how you see yourself." I don't mean that. What I mean is-
E: I'm aware that, by what I just said, I may have offended you, and I'm sorry if I did that.
Dylan: No, I don't feel offended at all, actually. I think, if anything, I just feel like I don't ... Strength comes in so many different forms, right?
E: Sure.
Dylan: It is not just like ... Comments and words affect me. I still think I'm strong. There are ways to persevere that don't just look like the traditional notions of strength that we think. I think it can be strong to even face your emotions and figure out what's going on, even if that means sitting with your emotions. Now, that's a super liberal thing of me to say super snowflakey, but hey, here I am.
E: I agree with that. I agree with that. I don't ignore my emotions.
Dylan: Yeah, right.
E: I mean, to a sense I say this is how I feel about that. If it's upsetting me, I need to just push on, not be so bothered by it.
Dylan: Yeah. You know, once this is edited down and this is put into an episode, if this section stays, I'm going to put a trigger warning in front of this episode. I, want... I'm curious to hear what you think about trigger warnings.
E: I mean, in terms of you putting one, [inaudible] maybe your audience is really ... wants that. I think that they're mostly ... I think that's part of what's conditioning people to be so weak these days or even going forward through it is the fact that we're going to protect you from ideas that might make you upset. I just don't think ... I mean, obviously, in some special cases, cases where if you've been into real trauma and maybe the word ... Maybe you've been horribly raped and the word "Rape," just ... you start thinking about it, and it's insane. Then, I understand that kind of thing where you don't want to ... You've been so horribly hurt, you just want to stay away from ... You don't want to have to deal with that in your day.
Dylan: Right.
E: So, in a sense, I get it for those purposes, but in terms of "These ideas might offend you," I think that is ... I think it's ludicrous, to be honest.
Dylan: No, it's ... But I wouldn't be putting a trigger warning ... I won't put a trigger warning on this episode because it offends people. It's only because, just like you said, with rape, it can be very harmful for someone who is going through this right now. We're two people who are on the other side of it, right, and have found our own coping mechanisms of how to safely live in the world, do you know what I mean, but if 14-year-old E heard this, this could be a dangerous thing for someone to hear if they're going through these feelings right now, and that's why I would put a trigger warning, not about offending people. It's just to be like, "Hey, I just want to let you know that this is a topic that's coming up, and you might be affected by this topic."
E: So, a specific trigger warning, not just "Trigger Warning: Something's In Here."
Dylan: "Trigger Warning: We Disagree. Please Don't Listen If You Want To ..." [Dylan laughs] I wouldn't put that at all. [E laughs] It would just be like, "Hey, trigger warning. We talk about suicide, and I just want to be upfront about that so that if that's something that affects you, you should probably not listen to this episode."
E: Oh, no. No. I mean, that's sort of a hard thing to pin down, I guess--
Dylan: Well, I think if we just kind of take a step back and just look at what we're both saying, we have both found ways to move out of the pain that we had in our teenage years. The way you define it is you wanted to get stronger-willed and less affected by things and less--
E: More capable of dealing with things.
Dylan: More capable of dealing with things. The funny thing is I would say the same for me. I feel more capable of dealing with things, but it's also ... I would think it's unfair to our younger selves to say that that's who we should have been because being who we were then is what makes us what we are now, and I think we would both say that we are prouder of who we are now than who we were then, right?
E: Yeah. I would say that's true. I don't think it's most people's fault this day and age. I think most people just have been done the injustice of not being prepared by the people who are supposed to prepare them in the environments that we're supposed to prepare them for life to not be easy. So, I think it's not people's ... their own fault directly, at least 100%.
Dylan: Do you regret writing that comment?
E: It does sort of embarrass me that that's going to be ... After everything I've said, that's going to be a sort of ... in real life, not meant to be ... Right now, obviously, I'm saying things knowing that people are going to hear what I'm saying, but that comment now stands as something that raw me, not trying to put on, necessarily, filters or something to be seen as good. Just the fact that that's going to sort of stand as that representation of "This is what I'm actually like." It sort of embarrasses me. That doesn't mean I don't want you to do this thing or show that. I still want this all to be shown and put up, full transparency kind of a way.
Dylan: Right.
E: So, when in the ... Yeah. In that sense, I definitely do ... I would say I definitely regret making that comment. After watching the whole video and definitely hearing some of the things that you've told me in terms of your experience as a gay man, I definitely regret most of the meaning behind it. Obviously, in terms of the "Kill yourself," and the on an island to die were never meant to be serious in the first place. It was certainly more passing, like, "Fuck off," kind of a thing.
Dylan: Yeah. So, I'll cancel my trip to that island where I was just planning to spend-
E: Yeah, it's not very nice anyways. The beaches there are gross.
Dylan: I'm so glad you told me because I was about to go there for the rest of eternity, but I want to just be clear. I wasn't asking that question about regret to shame you because the other thing is that you're saying that everyone is going to remember just this comment about you, but I disagree because, remember, this comment is only going to be connected to this discussion where you and I talked to each other, and this is radically different from the comment, you know?
E: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But just in terms of talking about that comment, I do regret it in the sense that it will sort of stand as representing me when I'm not knowing that I'm going to be listened to by a bunch of people.
Dylan: Yeah.
E: In that sense, I regret it because I would not want that to be ... I don't think it's an accurate representation of what I'm like, what my beliefs are, but at the same time, that is something that I decided to post and say, and that was me, and I'm not going to shy away from that.
Dylan: Right. But everything you said on this podcast is also you. It's like all of you.
E: Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Just talking about the comment, I sort of regret it that way.
Dylan: Yeah. Okay. Well,-
E: Yeah.
Dylan: I'm not hurt. For what it's worth, I'm glad that we got to have this conversation, even though it started from an unideal place. [E laughs] I'm still glad that I got to talk to you. So, last question. E, as you know, this podcast is called “Conversations with People Who Hate Me.” Do you hate me?
E: No. No, not at all. You're a very reasonable guy, and it's been a pleasure talking to you.
Dylan: Well, E, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me. I hope you have a great day, and I'll see you on the Internet, okay?
E: Thank you. You, too. It's been great. Thanks a lot for having me.
Dylan: Okay. Thanks. I'll talk to you soon.
E: Bye. Have a great day.
Dylan: Bye. You, too.
E: Bye.
[Phone call ends with a hang up sound. The drumbeat from ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals kicks in.]
Dylan [VOICEOVER]: To learn more about suicide prevention, you can visit the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention at AFSP.org or The Jed Foundation at jedfoundation.org. Thank you so much for listening.
Dylan [VOICEOVER CLOSING CREDITS]: Conversations with People Who Hate Me is a production of Night Vale Presents. Christie Gressman is the executive producer, Vincent Cacchione is the sound engineer and mixer, Alen Rahimic is the production manager, he theme song is These Dark Times by Caged Animals, the logo was designed by Rob Wilson, and this podcast was created, produced, and hosted by me, Dylan Marron.
Special thanks to Night Vale Presents' director of marketing, Adam Cecil, our publicist, Christine Ragasa, and also, Dustin Flannery McCoy, Rob Silcox, Mark Maloney, and production assistants, Alison Goldberger and Emily Moler.
Thank you to all of those who gave encouragement throughout this process. Also, a thank you to those who warned me against doing this project. I did it anyway. Yes, thank you to those who wrote the hateful messages, comments, and posts that inspired me to turn one-way negativity into productive, two-way conversations.
Thank you so much for listening, and we will be back with another conversation next week. If you love this show, tell all of your friends about it. If you hated this show, maybe write to me and tell me why you hated it, and who knows, maybe you'll be a guest on the show. Just remember, there is a human on the other side of the screen.
[Chorus of ‘These Darks Times’ by Caged Animals plays.]