EPISODE 6: THE GOOD TROLL
James: Oh, man. I'm such a, I'm such a troll.
Dylan: You identify as a troll?
James: (Laughs) I identify as a troll. I think I just identify as a troll.
[Instrumental of ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals begins to play.]
Dylan [VOICEOVER INTRODUCTION]: Hey, I'm Dylan Marron and this is Conversations With People Who Hate Me, the show where I have extended conversations with some of the people who have sent me the most negative or hateful messages on the Internet.
In this show, and in interviews about this show, I've purposefully chosen to not use the word "troll" out of respect for my guests. The idea of calling them trolls feels like I'd be stripping them of their humanity. They're people, some of whom strongly disagree with my views, others with my sexuality and a select few with my entire existence, but they're still people and bless them for it.
But today, I'm talking to someone who identifies as a troll, and who am I to stand in the way of someone's identity? To use his terminology, he first "trolled" me when I made a video called “Happy Heterosexual Pride Day,” a satirical PSA inspired by the many who demanded that straight people should get a Pride Day if gay people get one. Here's a clip.
Dylan [CLIP FROM ‘HAPPY HETEROSEXUAL PRIDE DAY]: Today's Friday or Saturday or Sunday or Monday or Tuesday or Wednesday or it's Thursday, which means it is Heterosexual Pride Day.
Dylan [VOICEOVER INTRODUCTION]: Now beneath this video, many people left comments and one of those comments came from a man named James. He wrote, "Dude, you generalize people who are straight and you're also condescending as fuck. Like seriously, you want people to feel guilty about the way they were born and you define people by their sexuality. You're a walking contradiction, mate." That was from James and I am going to call James right now.
[Phone rings. Music fades. Guest picks up.]
James: Hello.
Dylan: Hey, is this James?
James: Yes. Hello. This is Dylan?
Dylan: Yeah! This is Dylan Marron. How are you doing?
James: Good, how are you?
Dylan: I'm good. James, thank you for talking to me today. Tell me a little about you.
James: Okay, I'm a stand-up comedian.
Dylan: That's amazing. How did you get into stand-up?
James: Well, I just came up with some material and I just, I met people who were in comedy so I thought, "Maybe I'll give it a shot," so I did. It went really well and yeah, it's been going really well ever since. So far, I've done only collaboration shows but next year, I'm doing a solo show.
Dylan: Oh my God. That's amazing.
James: Yeah, yeah.
Dylan: What are some of the things you talk about in your set?
James: I'm kind of one of those one-liner guys. People say it's like pretty dark, but it's like pointing out the most obvious shit that's like right in front of your face. Like this guy said to me once that the jokes that I write is the jokes that he wishes that he wrote.
Dylan: Because you're just pointing out the stuff that's there in front of everyone, everyone's noses.
James: Yeah, yeah. Like right in front of your face kind of stuff.
Dylan: That's amazing. I don't know if you feel comfortable, but would you mind sharing a few of your jokes now?
James: (Laughs) I would, but it's kind of like-
Dylan: I totally get it.
James: It just wouldn't be funny. It wouldn't be funny if I-
Dylan: I 100% get it. It's like someone introducing you at a party and being like, "They're funny," and then you're like, "What do I say to that?" Right. [James laughs] Now, I became that awful person. It's like, "Oh, dance for me, dance for me," [James laughs] so I formally apologize for doing that.
James: Well, that's all right.
Dylan: I guess in some way that we're similar is I'm also in the comedy community here in New York. I do not, I don't do stand-up, but and we'll get to your comment, but perhaps you disagree that what I do is comedy and that is okay. [James laughs] I totally affirm your position.
James: Yeah.
Dylan: I see it as comedy, but comedy is like one of those mediums that I actually always ... Like so my start in comedy was doing sketch comedy. That's how I started in college, and I got very, very nervous about even calling it comedy because I-
James: Why's that?
Dylan: Because I was just like, you know what? Whether or not it's comedy, it's up to the audience to decide.
James: Oh, yeah. Exactly.
Dylan: Because I equate saying "it's comedy" with saying "it's funny," so if I tell ... It's like if I go up to someone and like, "Hey, I'm funny," then I get so nervous-
James: Sure.
Dylan: ... Because I'm like, "Well, you might not think so."
James: (Laughs) Yeah, yeah.
Dylan: Comedy is like the funniest name of a genre to me because-
James: Yeah. Because it could be anything, really.
Dylan: Exactly. It's also totally subjective. You could tell an audience like, "Get ready for comedy coming your way," and they could hate it. [James laughs] Then you're like, "Oh, I suppose this wasn't comedy, but in fact, like just humiliation on stage."
James: Yeah, yeah.
Dylan: I have a funny relationship with that, so it's, yeah, nice to hear you kind of talk about what you do.
James: Well, actually, to be honest, I watched that video that I commented on and I did kind of laugh a little bit.
Dylan: (Laughs) Okay, okay.
James: I thought it was funny, like the second time watching it.
Dylan: Okay, but the first time, you didn't.
James: Yeah, but I was like really wasted. I can't even remember watching it, really.
Dylan: The first time you were wasted.
James: Yeah.
Dylan: Well, this is a great segue. Let's get to it right now. James, you wrote under that video, and I'm going to read, "Dude, you generalize people who are straight and you're also condescending as fuck."
James: (Laughs) Oh, god.
Dylan: "Like seriously, you want people to feel guilty about the way they were born and you define people by their sexuality. You're a walking contradiction, mate," so James, here we are.
James: Ah, how embarrassing.
Dylan: No, I mean I am not embarrassed. Look, we're having a great time on the phone. Do you feel embarrassed by that?
James: Well, not really, because I don't really get embarrassed, but I mean like slightly, slightly. I can see where I was coming from. I don't know, I think it must have been like, I think it was the whole combining religion with being straight and I don't know, it just wasn't reality for me. Like I mean, because I was never brought up with any religion in my family at all. Then it kind of seemed like you were putting all, this whole massive genre of people ... Genre, I don't if that's the right word, but genre of people in one box.
Dylan: I mean, the joke that it was based on, or the take I suppose, is that this was a few weeks after the Orlando shooting in Florida, and which coincided with Pride Month. A lot of people were saying we should have a Heterosexual Pride Month.
James: Oh, okay, yeah. See, I had no idea.
Dylan: I wasn't equating heterosexuality with religion. It's just that so often, the Bible is used as the shield to, or I guess more aptly, the sword, to convince people that homosexuality is a sin.
James: Yeah, okay. Yeah, I get it.
Dylan: It was kind of twisting that and turning it on its head and saying, "Adam and Eve were the first persecuted straight people and that's when straight culture was born." Again, I am not saying this to change your mind so that you think it was funny. Just, I'm already like breaking out into a sweat (James laughs) thinking that I'm potentially on the phone with someone being like, "No, no, please. What I did was funny!!" (James laughs) That sounds like real, so desperate to me. Or that feels like I'm giving voice to the desperation that truly lives within me. (James laughs) Here we are, I'm being real about it, but here, James, it's coming out with you. I guess, that's where I was coming from.
James: Yeah. I mean, if I knew that there were people who actually wanted a Heterosexual Pride Day, then I think I would have understood the-
Dylan: Yeah.
James: Because I kind of figured that the second time I watched it. I was like, "Ah, well, obviously." Like, "Duh, James. What the fuck?" (laughs) Yeah, the first time, I didn't get that. I didn't know that that was a thing.
Dylan: Yeah.
James: I didn't know there were actually people who would want, even want a Heterosexual Pride Day.
Dylan: Oh, James. There are so many humans on this planet who want a Heterosexual Pride Day. (James laughs) I mean, I think it's very similar to white pride, right? It's people who think that gay pride is suffocating straight existence. When the irony is that gay pride actually exists because it was being suffocated by like the refusal to acknowledge that it existed. So, you're a comedian and I'm curious, what is your approach to comedy? I guess, like what draws you to it?
James: Well, I, when I was about maybe 13, I was diagnosed with Asperger's. I think people just think my way of looking at the world is funny. Like everything's literal.
Dylan: For anyone listening who doesn't know what Asperger's is, could you just give us like a quick definition?
James: It's like, it's kind of like on the spectrum of like autism and like ADD, ADHD. It's on the spectrum. Yeah, and I make fun ... Like people make fun of me all the time.
Dylan: What are the challenges to having Asperger's and being a comedian?
James: Well, the challenges are, like it's hard to socialize because I always think that like, in the comedy scene, it's always given that you're going to drink, because it's right at the bar. Everyone's drinking. For me, that's a coping mechanism.
Dylan: Drinking.
James: Because I'm not very good, socially. Yeah, that is the challenge, that's the challenge, is mainly socially.
Dylan: Is that just to make socializing easier?
James: Yeah, yeah, but I haven't had a drink for a long time now. I think, just before you messaged me, I stopped drinking.
Dylan: Oh, amazing.
James: It's been like ... Yeah, I had a couple of glasses because it's like alcohol is like the hardest thing to give up.
Dylan: Of course, yeah.
James: Before that, I went through like a whole decade of drinking, and like and amphetamine use. In Adelaide, there's a massive crystal meth epidemic.
Dylan: Oh, really?
James: Right now. Yeah, yeah.
Dylan: You were using.
James: Yeah, yeah, but I quit that like about a year ago.
Dylan: Oh.
James: I was still using other amphetamines. Then I stopped that completely, like cold turkey, and then-
Dylan: Oh. Was that hard.
James: Yeah. Alcohol was harder, and also the withdrawals from alcohol are way worse. Because when you-
Dylan: You would say withdrawal from alcohol is worse than crystal meth?
James: Yeah, yeah. Because when you withdraw from crystal meth, you're like, you sleep through most of the withdrawals because you're so tired, and you just want to eat and stuff and lie in bed, so that's kind of easy and it only lasts, it doesn't even last that long, but the withdrawals from alcohol is just so much worse.
Dylan: Huh.
James: It lasts longer and it's, and you like can't sleep for ages.
Dylan: Yeah. Is this the kind of first time that you've decided to go sober?
James: This is the second time. It's kind of one of those things where you really have to choose yourself. Because I think the first time, I just wasn't ready to do it, so I didn't. Now, I'm 28. I feel like the rest of my life will be better if I quit.
Dylan: I just have to say, I really applaud you for ... I don't want to say applaud you for kind of going sober, because maybe there are some folks listening who don't feel that they're ready to do that yet, but I just think, I applaud you for kind of making a change that is like pro you, do you know what I mean?
James: Yeah, yeah. Thanks.
Dylan: You said that when you first wrote this comment, you were drunk. Right?
James: Oh, yeah. I was fully drunk and on drugs.
Dylan: Oh, really? When you enter that head space, do you comment on videos or do you do things that you normally wouldn't do on the Internet? Like engage in conversations with people?
James: Yeah, yeah, but I do that a lot anyway. I love to-
Dylan: Comment.
James: Oh, man. I'm such a, I'm such a troll. I just like-
Dylan: You identify as a troll? (James laughs)
[BREAK]
James: I identify as a troll. I think I just identify as a troll.
Dylan: Wow. Do you feel like you troll more when you're under the influence? Or it's like in all kind of states, you like trolling?
James: I troll in all states.
Dylan: That sounds like a beautiful quote that should be printed somewhere. "I troll in all states," great, great.
James: (Laughs) Yeah.
Dylan: I suppose the formal question to ask is, how do you troll?
James: Well, I usually only troll if I disagree with something.
Dylan: Like me being, "Condescending as fuck."
James: Yeah, exactly. Depending on how wasted I am, the troll will be like ... I mean, I can do a good troll, and then I can do a shit troll. The troll that I did on you was a shit troll.
Dylan: Talk to me about what a "good troll" is.
James: A good troll is one that I easily shut someone down, and make it funny at the same time.
Dylan: Got it.
James: And get likes. You got to get likes. A good troll gets more likes.
Dylan: Huh. Oh, wow. This is fascinating. Okay, so-
James: I got like, I got almost 4,000 likes on a troll once.
Dylan: Wow.
James: Yeah, so it's a comment, yeah.
Dylan: Then, by "on a troll," you mean like on a comment under a video or a post?
James: Yeah.
Dylan: Got it. Your main incentive for making that comment was what? Like what was the payback you were hoping for? The likes?
James: Yeah, and also the way I word it. I think my troll on your video wasn't worded very well.
Dylan: Do you think trolling is inherently connected to comedy?
James: Yes.
Dylan: Huh. Wow, that-
James: Because-
Dylan: ... is so interesting to me.
James: Well, why is it interesting? Is it like, what would you consider a troll?
Dylan: I, see, I would say trolling is completely negative.
James: (Laughs) Okay, okay.
Dylan: What I actually think is that we're getting to something very, very interesting here, which is that it's not how I would judge trolling, but how I would judge comedy.
James: Yeah, okay.
Dylan: To me, the funniest joke is something that makes you think about the world differently, and it involves more people.
James: Yeah.
Dylan: I really don't like comedy...
James: That would be like a good troll?
Dylan: Right, but at the same time, a troll is like ... Okay, well I'm open to this, but from my understanding, trolling something or trolling someone is attacking that person, right?
James: Yeah.
Dylan: Right, so and I don't-
James: Possibly.
Dylan: ... at all like comedy that attacks one single person.
James: Yeah.
Dylan: I think that's where it's really different. While I completely applaud you as a comedian and I think the fact that you're like ... I mean, I'm going to get very SJW right now, (laughs) but I think it's very cool that you're doing comedy. Especially when people think that people with Asperger's can't do comedy. I think that's fucking heroic and awesome, and I don't mean that sarcastically.
James: Oh, thank you.
Dylan: But I think... and it kind of feels like when you're telling me that you're trolling and you're like, I'm going to like use your talents to make a very incisive take-down about someone or something and you're going to troll them, I think that is a misuse of your talent.
James: Yeah.
Dylan: If you're using that energy to make a joke at the expense of a person, I feel like that is almost an abuse of your power. That might sound very intense, but it's almost as if you are ... Go with me here, but you're about to receive a big compliment, so get the fuck ready.
James: Okay.
Dylan: It almost feels like because you have a talent and clear interest in comedy, that you have a power, kind of like a superhero, but as we know from the comics, you can use your power for good or you can use your power for bad, [James laughs] and I'm sure, I'm sure you use your power for good when you're doing a stand-up set. But I think if you're trolling, I feel like you're not, I feel like you're using that power for bad, because that might make you really happy to get a lot of likes, but the person who you are trolling could, like that could ruin their day, it could ruin their week. You know what I mean?
James: (Laughs) Aw, now I feel bad.
Dylan: No, I'm actually not saying this to make you feel bad. I'm saying this to be like, you possess something really cool.
James: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I get it. Yeah.
Dylan: Like you possess the ability to like-
James: Yeah. I feel pretty good, at the same time.
Dylan: You feel very good, okay. Good, good, good, good.
James: Yeah, yeah.
Dylan: It's a mixed feeling. You were saying that the troll comment you left for me was, you said that was a bad troll. Do you think it's a bad troll because you didn't think it was a good joke or incisive?
James: I don't even think I made a joke. Did I? I think, obviously, that comment, just reading it out, sounds so fucking like, "ugh."
Dylan: Yeah.
James: If I was like, say if I was like in the same room as you and I watched that video, it would be so different.
Dylan: Right. Or if I, if instead of a video, that was a set that I did or a bit that I did in my set, you wouldn't necessarily stand up in the comedy club and say-
James: Oh, no.
Dylan: ... "Dude, you generalize people," you know what I mean? (James laughs) You'd be like, "All right. I just won't laugh."
James: People would hate me if I did that.
Dylan: Yeah. They'd be like, "All right ..." Like maybe, whether they loved my set or hated my set, they'd be like, "All right, sir in the back." Like, "You don't need to yell."
James: Yeah, yeah. (Laughs.)
Dylan: Then, this is interesting to me, and go down this rabbit hole with me for a second, but it almost feels like trolling is giving a voice to like why you're not laughing at something in a comedy set. You know what I mean?
James: Yeah.
Dylan: It's like, instead of not laughing you're like, "All right. Let me take down this person with why I'm not laughing." Right?
James: (Laughs) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Dylan: The irony too is like, you were condescending to my video. I'm not saying this because you should feel bad about it, I'm just saying like-
James: I was being condescending there. I became the contradiction.
Dylan: Yeah, right. Maybe, in fact, now you wrote a really brilliant meta joke, because now ...
James: Like an elaborate joke.
Dylan: Yes. It's a very elaborate joke, and the punchline only just came now, months after you writing this comment.
James: (Laughs) It turns out I'm like a fucking genius?
Dylan: Yeah, James. Kudos to you. Look at you. [James laughs] Well, I mean, I still, as entertaining as that is to consider, I mean, I just think, I do kind of stick to what I said before which is I think comedy is a power. Now, it's totally subjective what I call good comedy, what you call good comedy, but I really do feel like it's not entertaining to me when I see someone being attacked by good comedy, because I just see it as a waste of good comedy. Do you know what I mean?
James: Okay. Yeah, yeah. I see that.
Dylan: Like even when I kind of see a comedian making a homophobic joke or a transphobic joke, I'm like, "Wow. That sucks. You're a genius, and this is how you use your genius, is by like attacking a group of people who is already marginalized?" Like it, I'm just like, what if you put all the time that you put into those jokes, which clearly you put time into, because they're like technically well-crafted, and what if you instead, put that into a joke that was like definitively punching up, which is just to say like attacking someone who is, or a group of people who are more powerful than you, or like making some like acute observation of the world?
James: Do you think like, I was kind of thinking about this. What if, is it not offensive to leave someone out? In terms of like, say if I'm going to be joking about people or groups of people, if I'm not going to, say if I didn't joke about, say for example, trans people or whatever, if I didn't make fun of them, then wouldn't that be more offensive because I see them as something you don't make fun of?
Dylan: Oh.
James: Which is like in my mind-
Dylan: No, I mean-
James: ... It's like leaving them out in a way.
Dylan: I totally disagree. I mean, I think, so I think that's kind of where we might see this differently. I think the joke should never be about trans people. The joke can be about, if the topic is trans identity, then there are so many different directions you could go with the joke. You could make fun of like transphobia. You, I think like, one of the best jokes ... I think it was like from the '90s even, and this is when trans identity wasn't really even being talked about, and the big thing was like gay people. Like I see that Chris Rock joke of saying, "I want gay people to be married so that they can be just as miserable as the rest of us," as like the perfect kind of way to make a joke when you're not part of a community but you're kind of joking about a topic. Because it wasn't at the expense of gay people.
Chris Rock [CLIP FROM ‘NEVER SCARED’]: People always say, "We can't have gay marriage because marriage is a sacred institution. It happens in the church. It's sacred." No it's not. Marriage ain't sacred. Not in America. Not in the country that watches Who Wants to Marry a Millionaire? and The Bachelor and The Bachelorette. Shit. Gay people got a right to be as miserable as everybody else.
James: Yeah. Because it's the punchline. The punchline is making fun of married people, not gay people.
Dylan: So, I have a challenge for you, which is like it's so cool to hear how much you think about comedy and how much it means to you, and how much effort and energy you put into a joke, as stand-ups do. I say like, kind of figure out a way to even leave a troll comment that, like, is a great joke but that isn't at the expense of anyone.
James: Okay.
Dylan: Like I've seen many comments that don't make anyone feel bad, but are like really great observations about the world. You know what I mean?
James: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Dylan: Not the-
James: I could do that.
Dylan: Great. Okay, awesome. You can see it as homework, of if you hate homework, then fuck that. You can see it as whatever you want to see it as, or you can not do it.
James: Yeah.
Dylan: I'm just me and you're just you.
James: Yeah, (laughs) that's so philosophical.
Dylan: Yeah, so James, do you regret writing this comment?
James: No. Because if I didn't write it, then we wouldn't have this conversation, would we?
Dylan: No. We would have just been two people on different sides of the planet who would never have spoken to each other, so here we are.
James: Exactly.
Dylan: I know.
James: Yeah.
Dylan: Yeah, so yeah-
James: This is it.
Dylan: James, I'm glad you called me "condescending as fuck." Here we are. Or, "a walking contradiction." Both. I'm proud of both.
James: Yeah, good.
Dylan: James, as you know, this show is called Conversations With People Who Hate Me. Do you hate me?
James: No, I don't hate you at all. I like you now, Dylan.
Dylan: Oh, James. I like you too now. Look at us. From "condescending as fuck" to phone friends. This is cool.
James: It's awesome.
Dylan: Well, James, it was such a pleasure to talk to you.
James: Yeah, you too.
Dylan: If you start working on some new material and you write that joke that kind of doesn't attack a single person, I'd love to hear it, if you want to share it with me.
James: Absolutely.
Dylan: Okay. Well, cool. James, it was a real pleasure to talk to you, and I'll see you on the Internet. Okay?
James: Okay. See you later.
Dylan: All right. Bye, James.
[Phone call ends with a hang up sound. The drumbeat from ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals kicks in.]
Dylan [VOICEOVER CLOSING CREDITS]: Conversations With People Who Hate Me is a production of Night Vale Presents. Christy Gressman is the Executive Producer. Vincent Cacchione is the Sound Engineer and Mixer. Alen Rahimic is the Production Manager. The theme song is These Dark Times by Caged Animals. The logo was designed by Rob Wilson and this podcast was created, produced and hosted by me, Dylan Marron.
Special thanks to Night Vale Presents Director of Marketing, Adam Cecil, our Publicist, Christine Ragasa, and also Dustin Flannery-McCoy, Rob Silcox, Mark Malone and Production Assistants Alison Goldberger and Emily Moler.
Thank you to all of those who gave encouragement throughout this process and also, thank you to those who warned me against doing this project. I did it anyway, and yes, thank you to those who wrote the hateful messages, comments and posts that inspired me to turn one-way negativity into productive two-way conversations.
Thank you so much for listening and we will be back with another conversation next week. If you loved this show, tell all of your friends about it. If you hated this show, maybe write to me and tell me why you hated it and who knows? Maybe you'll be a guest on the show.
Just remember, there is a human on the other side of the screen.
[Chorus of ‘These Darks Times’ by Caged Animals plays.]