EPISODE 43: THROW YOUR BOOK IN THE FIRE
[Instrumental of ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals begins to play.]
Dylan [VOICEOVER INTRODUCTION]: Hey, I'm Dylan Marron and welcome back to Conversations With People Who Hate Me, the show that takes conflict and turns it into conversation.
Now, as you listen to this, my book is out in the world. You can go into a bookstore and buy it. You can borrow it from your local library. And I am so, so excited that you can finally read it. I've worked on this for so long. I have been spending years trying to figure out how to best distill the things I've learned from making this show and weaving it into a book that you can consume ideally in an afternoon, or if you're a slow reader like me, in bits and pieces throughout a week. It is conveniently also called Conversations With People Who Hate Me. And all I can say is that I hope you read it.
Now, since this is the week that my book comes out, it feels only appropriate to speak to someone who criticized my book and actually has been critical of this whole project since its inception.
Amir is a friend of mine. We've known each other digitally for many years. And a few months ago, when I sent out a big email telling all of my friends about the book, he responded and he said, among other things, "I really wish you the best with your book. I do hope it does well for you. Please forgive me if I buy it, read 30 pages, and then throw it in the fire."
Now, of course, this statement will be contextualized and explained in our conversation. But when I read that line that he was going to throw my book in the fire, it hit me. It really hurt. But it didn't surprise me because, as I said, he has been critical of Conversations With People Who Hate me since it began. After the show's first season, he wrote me this long email where he called this project "fascinating and well made", but, and then in all caps, "FUCKING INFURIATING." And then later in the email he asked, "What is the point of this?"
This email, and specifically his question, what is the point of this, has embedded itself in my head for the last five years. Now, you'll hear me say this in our conversation, but getting a negative comment on your work, the thing you've dedicated years of your life to, from a friend and a friend you admire, hurts more than random vitriol from an internet stranger. So while this is by no means the most negative comment that I've tackled on this show, and I also will just say that I conveniently skipped over a lot of very kind things he also said in his emails, his sentiments are some of the more hurtful ones I've received because he's a friend.
Just to let you know, our conversation is minimally edited and I'm releasing it this way because there's a lot of it I want you to hear. And that includes some valid and constructive criticism of this work.
So with that being said, here is Amir.
[Music fades. Conversation begins.]
Amir: Hello.
Dylan: Oh my gosh! (laughs)
Amir: (laughing) How are you?
Dylan: I'm good. Look at you! We're here together.
Amir: I know. It's crazy.
Dylan: Let's start small. How are you doing today?
Amir: (giggling) I'm hanging in there.
Dylan: Okay. So how are you feeling about this? Radical honesty.
Amir: (deep inhale, exhale) Nervous, excited, honored, (Dylan laughs) and nervous.
Dylan: Okay. (Amir laughs) Well we welcome all of those feelings here. And I just want to say I'm actually nervous too. And I really don't get nervous before these calls. I have a calm set in on me. But I feel nervous for this one and I just want to come out to you about that so that we can embrace this nervousness together. So rather than saying don't be nervous, I say I join you in that. So let's just be nervous together. But I'm also really excited.
Amir: I think that what makes me less nervous is that from what I have seen of you thus far, you are incredibly skilled at taking care of people. And I value that about myself as well. And I think that knowing that we're both nervous, but knowing that we want to take care of each other, I'm less nervous.
Dylan: I love that. I love it. Done. We're taking care of each other. (Amir giggles) So before we get to what we're officially here to discuss, we've actually known each other for many years digitally.
Amir: Yeah! Yes.
Dylan: But this is our first time ever face to face, however digital it may be. But I think we were first in touch with each other seven years ago. It was around the Every Single Word project, right?
Amir: God, was that seven years ago?
Dylan: I know. Isn't that nuts?
Amir: That's wild.
Dylan [VOICEOVER]: To quickly explain, Every Single Word is a video series that I made in 2015 where I took popular movies and I edited them down to only the words spoken by people of color.
Amir: That project was incredibly meaningful to me and beautiful and funny. And yeah, so I think I probably talked about it incessantly on Twitter. And from that we started following each other.
Dylan: Yeah. I think we moved it to email of a mutual respect society so that's really fun.
Amir: (laughing) Yeah.
Dylan: So, yeah. So we've been in touch for a while and before we move on, I would love to start just by hearing about you. And really this is just an excuse so that people listening to this can know about you as a human being.
Amir: I'm an actor. I identify as a Californian.
Dylan: (laughing) Okay. Congratulations. (Amir laughs)
Amir: I'm a husband. I love playing poker.
Dylan: Ooh.
Amir: I'm extremely political.
Dylan: Okay!
Amir: I'm obsessed with voting rights.
Dylan: Yes.
Amir: And I do my best to be kind at all times, but I often fail. (laughs)
Dylan: Okay, great. Listen, as a recipient of your kindness, I will say you very much succeed at that.
Amir: Oh, good.
Dylan: And it's also very appropriate that we started by talking about Every Single Word, which was a project of mine that you unequivocally supported (laughing) and into this project that you are now part of that you have ... I'm not going to say you don't support. I'm going to say you have different feelings about it than something—
Amir: I have reservations.
Dylan: You have reservations. And that's what we're here to discuss. So listeners might be hearing us now and saying, "Look at these friends, just talking to each other lovingly. What could they possibly be on this podcast to talk about?"
Amir: This episode should not be called Conversations With People Who Hate Me by the way.
Dylan: Okay.
Amir: To be clear. It should be Conversations with People Who Think I'm a Beautiful Human Being, (Dylan laughs) Adore My Older Work, But Are Set By My Current Project and Have Reservations.
Dylan: Okay. Well, the funny thing is, and I feel like this is the drum I beat on this show over and over, is that because we as a species have not yet evolved to filter negativity online, even constructive criticism gets read as like, "Oh my God, Amir hates me." You know what I mean? (Amir laughs)
Amir: Sure.
Dylan: And not to get philosophical, but that's what I've explored so much with this show is that so many people are like, "I shouldn't be on a show of conversations with people who hate you, because I don't hate you at all." So people don't perceive the hate and I fully know that you don't hate me at all. I'm not confused about that. But I will say, and we can get to this, but the structure of the digital distance between us is when I receive an email like this, you feel hated. And I'm saying I hope that we can step outside of that as I say that. Because it's not like you need to answer for the fact that you hate me, it's that the distance makes it be like, "oh, I feel like shit." You know?
Amir: Yeah. It sounds like you're saying that it's difficult digitally to not see things in a binary.
Dylan: Totally.
Amir: And when you get an email from someone like me criticizing the work, it's either Amir loves it or Amir hates it and it's clear that in that moment, Amir hates it.
Dylan: That's that's a ding, ding, ding. And then by proxy, and maybe this is my own stuff to work out, which I will take to my therapist, (Amir giggles) but then I think Amir hates me.
Amir: Right.
Dylan: And again, I fully trust two humans like us, we are going to navigate this with aplomb and grace. But anyway, my love. So just to bring us up to speed, (laughs) are you comfortable if I read the email? Or do you want to read the email?
Amir: Oh gosh. Okay.
Dylan: What do you prefer?
Amir: I'll read it. I'll read it.
Dylan: Okay. Great.
Amir: Well, okay, so if I read it, you'll hear it how I intended.
Dylan: Okay.
Amir: If you read it, your audience will hear it how you heard it.
Dylan: Oh my god. Wow!
Amir: Which is two different things.
Dylan: Okay. Wow.
Amir: Right.
Dylan: You know what? I accept the challenge and I'm going to say you should read it.
Amir: Okay. Let's find it. Okay.
Dylan: And can I set this up though?
Amir: Yeah, please.
Dylan: Okay. So recently I had sent out an email to many people I know announcing that I had a book coming out soon. And in it I said what it's about, how I've worked on it, nice things people have said. And I sent this email to you. You are part of this list. And then you sent me the following email back.
Amir: "Hi Dylan. I might have to read your book because the idea of it makes me so uncomfortable and because I listened to a few of your pod before turning it off because it made me furious. I find you so thoughtful, funny, and brave. On your pod, you are so kind to people who I genuinely don't think deserve your level of kindness. I have this fear that the message many will take from your book, whether you intend it or not, will be "Nazis are just sad people who have bad lives so punching Nazis is in some ways as bad as being Nazi yourself." I'm not asking you to convince me to read your book, but I'm just wondering, do you really think opening our hearts to Nazis is productive? Does it actually do good or does it just make you feel like a more enlightened being? I'd rather open my heart and my wallet up to a trans woman of color who's been beat down by the system than to someone who is doing the literal or figurative beating down. I don't know, man. I'm sorry. I'm ranting a little. Maybe there's not a great response here. Not that you owe me anything. Anyway, I really wish you the best with your book. I do hope it does well for you. Please forgive me if I buy it, read 30 pages and then throw it in the fire. Love Amir."
Dylan: (laughing) Okay. Okay. So I have to say you have such a beautiful, warm spirit (Amir giggles) that when you read it, I'm like, okay, maybe we're on Sesame Street (Amir chuckles) and I am being shown what love is. But at the same time, it reads to me ... I mean, "throw your book in the fire" is- (laughs)
Amir: Okay. But the undergirding of that is that you and I have at least somewhat of a relationship over the past, wow, seven years and you know me to be a funny person online.
Dylan: Totally.
Amir: And so part of that is me going, he's going to know this is a joke. He's going to know that this joke is coming from a place of frustration, as opposed to a place of hatred.
Dylan: Obviously now with distance I can say that. Like "Oh yeah, this is a joke." And especially ... I mean, I'm not trying to proselytize here or get on a soapbox, but this is quite literally the point of this show. It's the value of talking to someone voice to voice versus just having their text speak for themselves. And so when you read it and when you explain that, I of course see it and the "throw it in the fire" feels like a joke. But yeah, when I first received it, I felt so hurt by it. And the "throw it in the fire," "throw your book in the fire" idea, didn't read to me as a joke. It read to me as serious, not as in like, "oh my God, he's about to burn my book" but like ... I don't know. It kind of felt like this thing that I've-
Amir: Worked so hard on.
Dylan: Worked so hard on, but also ... But even beyond the book, this whole project that I've dedicated so much of my life to and have shifted course for was something that someone I respect so much respects so little.
Amir: Mmm-hmm. Yeah.
Dylan: And I think it hurt, but not in a way ... It's not one of those super were clean cut emails that's like, "You were so nasty and you got to tell me why." You know?
Amir: Yeah.
Dylan: I think there's a lot of nuance in this and you're bringing up so many things to talk about. And we obviously don't have to get to the bottom of every single one of them. We will have to focus this. But it hurt. And here's the interesting thing. Or you can decide if it's interesting or not (laughs). That's not up to me to label if it's interesting. But something to share with you is that a message like this coming from you hurts more than a homophobic stranger calling me a faggot. Because I care so much about what you think of me. And you are also an avatar. This happens every day on Twitter, where if someone who is aligned with you politically tells you the kind of activism, the kind of project you're dedicating yourself to, "I don't get it. It's a waste of time."
Amir: Yeah.
Dylan: There's no question there. I just wanted to share that with you, but I want to hear whatever you've got to say.
Amir: Well, I appreciate you sharing that. And it genuinely makes me sad that that hurt you. I didn't think of it in that way. I have a tendency to just be snarky digitally and-
Dylan: Totally. We all do.
Amir: Well, yeah. I feel like I'm worse than average though. (laughs)
Dylan: No. No, no!
Amir: Your project, it upsets me. I listened to your podcast as soon as it dropped. I was listening to it every week. Because I was like, this is fascinating. And what I loved about Every Word Spoken and Trans People in Bathrooms-
Dylan [VOICEOVER]: Amir is referring to Sitting in Bathrooms with Trans People, a series that I made in 2016 as a response to the transphobic bathroom bills that were gaining media attention around the country. And basically I did exactly what the title suggested. I sat in bathrooms with my trans friends and I interviewed them. And that was the series.
Amir: You were, in a really cheeky way, elevating and giving space to people who weren't seen enough. In Every Word Spoken it was you look at a movie that has 10 lines spoken by actors of color of which I am one. And that made me feel so seen. And then trans people in bathrooms. It was such a beautiful way to disarm the nonsense about trans people in bathrooms and give a platform to these people who are just people. And then this project initially at least struck me as here's a guy who called me a slur, let me have him on my show. And I was like, why does that person deserve more space and time? I feel assaulted by that regularly. I feel assaulted by that person having a platform. That person has a platform sort of everywhere. And so it upset me to see you give them a platform. Even though that's not exactly what you were doing, that's how it felt. And when they went on there and said things like, "Look, you seem like a nice guy, Dylan. I just think that there's a criminality problem in the black community," that made me go (Amir makes a dramatic exhale) ... It was really, really upsetting. I used to canvas for various campaigns and we did something called deep canvassing, which is where you would talk to ... Do you know what deep canvassing is?
Dylan: Yeah.
Amir: Great. Okay. For anyone who doesn't, it's a form of canvassing. Normally when someone knocks on your door, they're like, "Hey, do you support Trump or Biden?" And then once they tell you, they're like, "Okay, great. Thanks." And you mark it down and you leave. For deep canvassing, the point is to have a 20, 30 minute conversation with people. And one of the assignments that we had was go talk to people in a purple district, as opposed to a red or a blue district. Find some people who might support Trump, but might be sort of in the middle. Might be open. And I remember I talked to this woman and she seemed so lovely. About 50 year old white woman. Friendly, welcoming. And we were told to ask, if you could talk to Trump right now, what would you say? And I was surprised by the number of Trumpsters who are like, "I'd say he is doing a good job, but man, you got to blah, blah, blah." They would equivocate. And this woman said, I would say, "Mr. Trump, you're the best president we've ever had in the history of America." And she went off on this rant that included at one point telling me, "Look, you don't know what real racism is." And I stood there and I withstood this very affable, kind ... The conversation went nice, but in the content of the conversation, she was just gaslighting and abusing. And I remember thinking, as I withstood it, I was like, "I signed up for this. I'm doing this for the greater good." And when I experienced the first few episodes of your podcast, it was like that feeling. It was, "Oh, I'm going to hear Dylan who I love and respect so much." And then I was faced with "black people or criminals" and it felt like an attack. And so I think that all of that is to say, when I think of your project, it comes from such a beautiful place of connection, of empathy. But part of what I said in another email to you is "I'm not sure I understand the point of this." "What are you trying to accomplish?" For me, talking to that Trumpster, it was, I'm trying to get data and maybe understand people a little better. But I would never broadcast that conversation with that woman. Because as much as I learned from it, and as much as it became useful for the campaign, I wouldn't want any other people of color to experience hearing a white woman in her 50s saying "you don't know what real racism is." Because I'll tell you, after that Trump's racism got worse. And to me, that echoed in my ears. "You don't know what real racism is." It started to sound more and more like a threat or a prediction. Now look, clearly I didn't bring this up in the email with you. (laughs) Right?
Dylan: Yeah.
Amir: And so the context for my frustration and my anger within your project is super informed by my experiences hearing that "we have to build bridges," "we have to listen to the other side." And I'm just like ... I saw this great tweet that was like, "There is no racial divide in this country. A racial divide implies that both sides have equal animus for each other." No. The racial divide is that there are white supremacists and patriarchal systems that are holding down people of color and women. We don't take an abusive husband who's beating his wife and say, "We need to build a bridge between you two." We say, "Dude, you need to stop beating your fucking wife, you asshole." And so ... (Amir laughs) I feel like I'm in therapy.
Dylan: No, no, no. It's great. I'm here for all of it.
Amir: I think that as much as I really respect and adore you, I'm also very angered by the last five years. Which has nothing to do with you. But when I see that you, someone I respect so much, is saying "we should empathize and build a bridge," part of me goes "hell no." And I don't know, is that productive? It's real.
Dylan: Listen, all I came here for, all we are in this space together for is real. Yeah. I feel like there's a few things to say. One is, I totally understand how if you listened to the first handful of episodes, while there was one or two exceptions, I think it could easily be mistaken for a show in which I, a queer, brown person who is on the left speaks to people who are very much on the right. But while there were exceptions in that first season, I think I've really tried to dance in the gray area since. I'm very fascinated by apolitical friction that has nothing to do with the political divide, but is people using the internet to spar with each other. And then I'm also interested in people where it seems kind of political, but it's actually not motivated by politics, but instead it's people motivated by a meme that they wanted to be part of and inadvertently are joining a mob that they don't realize that they're joining. And I've done a ton of episodes with lefties talking to lefties. People on the left who got into it with each other. There's a beautiful episode between a Bernie Sanders supporter and an Elizabeth Warren supporter (Amir giggles) who really got into it on Twitter with each other. And it shows how social media can create fault lines where there is not a fault line. And that in the lack of speaking to each other, there's that. So I'm about to say something that you're probably going to disagree with but I think to even equate my guests with Nazis is something that I can't stand for it and that's just not true. They're not. And I think that when you speak to individual people, no matter who they voted for or who they actively support, they're not Nazis and I think we can talk about how fervently I disagree with who they voted for and what they believe without calling them this incredibly charged word that is now this almost weirdly bipartisan term (Amir laughs) that people just throw across the aisle to whoever they don't like. So they're not Nazis at all. And then I also think your experience with deep canvasing not working for you is really good information for you. This project is not necessarily for you. And I think that has to be okay and the person I'm probably saying that to is me and not you. You know what I mean? (laughing)
Amir: (laughs) Right.
Dylan: It's not like you need to understand that this project is not necessarily for you. It's like, I need to understand (laughing) that you don't need to love this project.
Amir: Well, one of the things I was so curious about at the beginning is who is this for? And after the first few episodes, I was like, this isn't for me. Clearly, because it's upsetting me. But that's okay! There are important conversations that need to be had that not everyone needs to be a part of. So clearly, and especially it sounds like from the first few episodes to where you are now, you've learned an incredible amount. You've impacted a lot of people in a positive way. So clearly that's a good thing. Just because I didn't partake in it that doesn't make it a bad thing at all.
Dylan: Yeah. Well, I think what's hard is I really respect you and I respect your opinion so to have you not like it. I'm realizing what I'm saying here and I should absolutely be roasted for it, but it feels like an attack (both laugh) because I'm an only child who's just used to praise. But I think I ... Listen, you weren't attacking me. You weren't attacking this project. And I say it all the time, this project isn't for everyone. And then now is the time where I have to actually contend with that and be like, okay, put your money where your mouth is. Do you really think it's not for everyone? Because if so, you need to release Amir to have whatever feeling he's having about this and anyone else listening to this. And yeah, that's obviously something that is my own work to get over or my own thing to get over. Were you about to say something?
Amir: No.
Dylan: Well then I guess few directions I could go with this. Well, let's address it. Because, as you alluded to, you had sent me a very similar email in 2017, right after the first season premiered.
Amir: Yeah.
Dylan: And you were asking, what is the point of this? Who is this for? That kind of question. And my best attempt to tell you the point of this show is that, well, one, this show is for whoever needs it. And it's kind of not my business who this show is for. And I know people listening are like, "You must make art and you must know who your audience is." But this began as a coping mechanism for me. I needed to know that the people behind the hate messages I was getting were full three dimensional people. And I don't speak for everyone with that. It's just, that made me feel better that I could reach them. But it began as a coping mechanism. And then by following that breadcrumb, I feel like I stumbled on something much bigger, which is what I talked about earlier, how social media creates a distance between us that is creating fault lines between us. Some of those fault lines are very obvious, right versus left, and then some of those fault lines are less obvious and more insidious. And I think all of those are really interesting to explore. What I can share with you anecdotally ... And I promise I'm not like pitching this show to you (Amir giggles), I'm just trying to give you-
Amir: I think it ... What it sounds to me ... And forgive me for interrupting, but what it sounds to me is that the show started, as you say, as a coping mechanism, as an experiment and over the course of the show, you discovered a lot about yourself, about the people, and you impacted a lot of people. Yeah?
Dylan: Totally. Well, what I was going to share is who I discovered this is for is that I think what the show does, based on emails I get from listeners, is it gives people avatars for themselves to see how they would fare in a conversation like this. And I think some listeners identify more with me and I would probably say many listeners identify more with me politically. But then I think there is a perhaps growing audience of people who identify with my guests. Now, like I said, that does not necessarily mean conservative, although it can. And I think ... I'll get a lot, a lot, a lot of emails from young queer kids who face conversations like these at home. And they think about this podcast as they're having these conversations with their resistant parents or family members. I'm also— no group is a monolith. So it's not like all of the queer youth is taking this podcast (laughs). Because I totally understand why some young queer people or not-young queer people would listen and be like, "These sound just like conversations I have with my family members. I am going to run as far away from this show as possible." (both laugh) And I also understand, or I can tell you factually from emails I get, that some people hear the conversations, recognize their dialogue, that they have with their own family, and go towards it. And I celebrate both. You got to do whatever's right for you. And yeah, now I'm rambling. So I don't know if you were going to say something.
Amir: Well, I wanted to circle back to something. You took issue with me calling your guests Nazis.
[BREAK]
Amir: You took issue with me calling your guests Nazis.
Dylan: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Amir: And I think that what's strange is that I used that as a shorthand. Which isn't that weird that Nazi has become a shorthand at this point in 2022?
Dylan: Yeah. Yeah, totally.
Amir: Super weird! But I think that what I meant was that it was people who hold and advance regressive and cruel opinions that harm people. So I don't mean to paint your guests with as broad and as harsh a brush as to call them all Nazis. But to explain, I just mean people who wish me and you harm. And it's almost taken as a truism that ... One of your guests was like, "We have to have these conversations with the other side, otherwise we're not going to get anywhere." And people accept that as fact. If someone wants to kill you, you have to talk to them. And for me, I'm like, no, I've had that conversation. And it's painful and I don't know how productive it's going to be for everyone. And I think there's an element of it that when you, someone I respect so much, tells me via your podcast though not directly, "Amir, you should have conversations like this." It gets my hackles up. And so part of me is so, I hate to use the word, but just triggered by that, that I want to go, "No! No, I don't want to have that! I'm going to throw it in the fire." (laughs) You know what I mean?
Dylan: And there it goes.
Amir: And it's like I said, I'm obsessed with voting rights. And all I want is for the people who've been disenfranchised to be able to have their voice heard. Right?
Dylan: Yeah.
Amir: And the other side just wants them not to. And so how do we have that conversation with them? Meet in the middle? Only half the black people are allowed to vote? Only half the college students are allowed to ... It's crazy to me.
Dylan: Yeah. You bring up such an interesting thing, which is this idea of perceiving me doing this show as a suggestion for you. And that's something-
Amir: And of course it's not.
Dylan: It's not at all! And I've even had to distill it into a bite-sized talking point that I carry with me everywhere I go, which is that this project is not a prescription for activism. And I've said that. I have to say it so many times. I don't mean to say as in I I must repeat it to you.
Amir: No, no, no. I get it.
Dylan: But I have to say it so many times because so many people mistake anyone doing something publicly for a mandate. And I want us all to disabuse ourselves of that notion.
Amir: But the problem is, like I said, it's such a truism in our society, right? It's you are part, inadvertently maybe, but you are part of the notion that we have to do this. That the only way we're going to get rights for gay people and black people is we have to talk to the people who don't want rights for gay people and black people. We have to.
Dylan: But I don't think that's actually what I'm saying. Because-
Amir: It's not!
Dylan: Yeah. No, no, no. But-
Amir: It's not. But the thing is you're then used by that.
Dylan: So, on the one hand I get what you're saying. Because I know that people uphold me and this project as a paragon of civility. As a "More People Need To Be Doing This These Days." And I hope you know that I am still alive and I can still challenge that lovingly. And what I often say is I'm really appreciative of the people who like what I'm doing. I really appreciate the people who are into what I'm doing, who think that I am doing the "productive" version of activism, heaviest scare quotes around productive. But what I always say back is ... And I've said this before and I really don't want to sound like a hack who's just quoting himself but I believe it. Which is that activism is to me ... I believe that activism is a mosaic. And that I think that there are so many tiles that create this huge, bigger picture of change, of progress. And this is just one tile. This is just one way to do it. Do I think that conversation is the only way? Of course not! So many rights that I am the beneficiary of to this day are not because of polite conversation but, but, heaviest but, is that polite, meaningful, deep conversation has been a very helpful ingredient in that on the individual level. And I think we have to distinguish between macro change we're looking for in micro change. And totally, people should be focused on macro change. People should be focused on rights. People should be earning those rights by protesting, by enacting change through policymakers. List all of the ways that we all know that change is enacted. And that's really helpful on a macro level. I'm reporting to you from the front lines of the micro level that you actually don't connect with someone by calling them a Nazi or thinking that they're a Nazi. And I mean to say that we might be learning that we actually are responsible for not only two different tiles, but tiles on opposite sides of this big picture of change I'm talking about. And I think that if we mistake everything as a mandate for all, and then if we use the reasoning of like, "well, you're complimented by people I disagree with for what you're doing," it's like, "well, that's great!" If I'm bringing certain people to the table that you're not, and you're bringing certain people to the table that I'm not with this, people who run from this show, people who are like, "Fuck the idea of that show. I'm not going to be listening to it. I do not believe in it." But we're all marching towards the right direction. It's just, I feel best suited to ... I don't know what it is. I can't explain it, but I love having these conversations and yes, I'm talking about loving having these conversations with these people who profoundly disagree with us. Yes, I also love having the conversations between very politically aligned people, but I also really love reaching someone who thinks very differently from me and forming a relationship where there was not one before.
Amir: Yeah. Yeah, no. I think one of the reasons I'm looking forward to reading your book is that what I suspect is unlike listening to the first several episodes of season one, (Dylan laughs) I think that the book is going to have a sense of context and of sort of "this is what I learned over my years of doing this." And I am very interested in everything you learned. I'm very interested in your process. I really admire just your way of being with people. And so I'm looking forward to the book for that reason. And then by the same exact token, that's why I couldn't listen to the podcast. Because it felt too raw. It didn't feel like there was context. It felt like we're going to jump into this experiment-slash-coping mechanism (Dylan laughs). Hope it goes well (Amir laughs). And in the beginning, I think just by design, you didn't exactly know what you were doing. You were like, I'm forging ahead in a space that I don't totally understand, but I think I need this and I think it'll be interesting.
Dylan: That's absolutely fair.
Amir: Yeah. So those are two such different things, right? The first handful of your podcast episodes and the book, even though they have the exact same title, are going to be very, very different and differently created and differently received and ultimately all worthwhile, I think.
Dylan: Yeah. I hope so.
Amir: I think any experiment that doesn't harm people is worthwhile. Right?
Dylan: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Amir: And that's what this was at first. Kind of an experiment. I think that what I took exception to in the early days was do I have to hear this experiment? Does anyone have to hear this experiment? What's interesting is by the time I wrote you that email after listening to the first handful of episodes, you had finished, I think, two seasons. Right? So you-
Dylan: Oh, you're talking about the first email?
Amir: Yeah.
Dylan: No. You wrote me, I think in September 2017 so I think the first season was just ending.
Amir: Okay.
Dylan: So it was just the first season.
Amir: But clearly you had learned a lot and been through a lot. Right?
Dylan: Yeah.
Amir: And so part of me wants to say "did I have to be there for your learning experience?" (Dylan laughs) "For your learning experience to have taught you anything?" You know?
Dylan: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Amir: And I think that the answer is for me, no, for others, clearly yes. And that's totally okay. And I think that the reason I wrote you at all is that you, as far as I can tell, are someone who is curious, who is empathetic, who is open. And I thought, "Well, he's doing something where he listens to people who disagree with him. He's going to get a lot of positive feedback for this. And I think he'd be interested to know that this makes other people uncomfortable." (Dylan laughs). And so I don't think it's right for it to just be "great plan, civility, rah, rah, rah." I think it's important for at least one person to say, "Hey, this makes me uncomfortable and I don't know if this is for me." I thought you would appreciate that because I didn't have to, but I just thought, "He's curious. Dylan wants to know what people think. He has opened his heart and his inbox up to people." And so I thought, "Let me do this." And I had always hoped that it wouldn't be taken as me being cruel or shitty, but just in the interest of the ongoing conversation.
Dylan: You're actually making ... and I'm sorry to jump in here, but it's because you've just made me realize something very, very big, which is that I actually believe that your email is what birthed that talking point of this is not a prescription for activism. I think you planted a seed within me to start thinking about how to address people like you who aren't "civility, rah, rah." (both laugh) But I don't mean "address people like you" in the absolutely snide way I just said that.
Amir: No, no, no. I get what you're saying.
Dylan: You get what I mean.
Amir: To engage people like me.
Dylan: Yeah.
Amir: And let people like me know that, "look, we're on the same side, but I, Dylan, want to let you know, this is where I'm coming from on this, not where you think I may be coming from on this."
Dylan: Yeah.
Amir: "And if someone uses me, Dylan, in a way that upsets you, I don't want that."
Dylan: Yeah. No, I hear that. And I think you planted a seed in me and there was also another event or a series of events that helped water that seed for me, which was that when I started doing moderated conversations for the podcast, which is mostly what I do now, I made a list of so many of my friends. I reached out to all of them. I'm like, "They are going to want to do this! (Amir giggles) This was so good for me. Everyone is going to say yes." And I noticed a very unsettling demographic of people who absolutely did not want to do this, which is that it was mostly women, it was mostly people of color, and it was mostly queer people who, I think, were on the front lines of doing battle against the hate they receive online so much that they were not—completely understandably—not interested. You know? We also—no group is a monolith, right?
Amir: Yeah. Of course.
Dylan: So this is not to say "this race does not want to speak to people." That's absolutely not true. But I think it was literally just in this moment that I realized that your email planted that seed for me, which ... And I'm not trying to be cute about this and turned this into a beautiful ribbon, but that is literally the point of difficult conversations. It's that by confronting me with something that felt uncomfortable for me, this idea that this project offended you, you actually helped shape how I think about this project and what I understand it to be for. And who I understand it to be for. And I also, by the same token ... And this is where I want to be clear. I'm not intentionally trying to be cutesy here. But by the same token, this why I also believe in this project.
Amir: Yeah.
Dylan: Because these difficult conversations I'm having with people one on one or moderating between people, it's like, yeah, it sucks at the beginning. And then it plants a seed for someone. And the biggest thing I'm trying to do with this project that I can now say confidently, that I couldn't necessarily answer back in 2017 is that, like, change takes time. And I think we have to move past this idea that with a devastating and hilarious clap back, someone will change. And I think change is so unsexy and change is so long. And I think if you listen to the conversations I have on this show, and you are like, "Oh my God, this is so frustrating.", then I hope I'm infusing into the public square that, yeah, these conversations are kind of frustrating. And they're also amazing. Both are true at the same time for me. And I love having them. So, you were about to say something.
Amir: I don't know that I was.
Dylan: Okay, great. I mistook that. (Amir giggles)
Amir: Maybe I was just really present with you.
Dylan: Yeah. No, no, no. You were so present. I was like, "oh my god!" Now, if I may circle back to something you brought up.
Amir: Please.
Dylan: You were such a huge fan of Every Single Word and you also brought up Sitting in Bathrooms with Trans People. And I know it might not seem like it, but speaking as the person who has made these three projects, I can tell you that they all emanate from a common source, which is that all three of those projects to me ... And this is also up for interpretation because these projects are meant to be viewed and you the viewer can have your own read on it. But I can tell you my read as the creator of them is that all of them to me are about identifying spaces where there's a lack of empathy and then trying to infuse empathy into it. Every Single Word was about the fact that if we routinely cast people of color aside in movies, i.e. mass storytelling, empathy machines, that dictate how we see other people and how we see ourselves, what are we doing to our greater understanding of empathy? What are we doing to our greater empathy for people of color? If they're continually just glorified set dressing in popular storytelling. Sitting in Bathrooms with Trans People was about the fact that this conversation, these laws had clearly no empathy for the very people they were trying to villainize. And what that project was trying to do is to very simply try and humanize the very people who are at the center of this issue to say, "these laws are propelled by fear." It's propelled by the fear in many people who don't know trans people. So they're told "beware of this type of person in this type of space and vote against it." And that project was trying to identify that lack of empathy there. And I think this project, which I understand is a little more complicated on the political fault lines, is that there is a lack of empathy in digital spaces which has become the new public square. And that lack of empathy is going both ways. Because I think when you read this as civility, rah, rah, rah, it's saying, "Well, the lack of empathy is we don't empathize enough with those other people." But it's also saying you're not empathizing enough with me because you sent me these negative messages. That's what the first season was. And this is not to campaign for you to change your tune on this show or this book or this project, or anything like that. It's just to share with you that these two projects you love that so clearly fall in a very direct line of social justice media, I actually think this other one falls in that same line and I also accept that you might not see it that way.
Amir: I think I do see it that way with the caveat that it's far more nuanced.
Dylan: Yeah.
Amir: And as such, I think it runs the risk of being misunderstood, perverted, used for ends that maybe you and I wouldn't want. But I think you're absolutely right. Like I said a couple times, what I love about you is that you clearly value and live with empathy and that's a fucking beautiful thing. You know what I mean? I can say this unequivocally. If we had more Dylans, we'd be in a good space. (Dylan laughs) Not saying we need to have more Conversations with People Who Hate Me (Dylan laughs again), but we definitely need more Dylans. That's unequivocal. Right?
Dylan: Gotcha. Gotcha. (Amir laughs)
Amir: Yeah. And my deep canvassing experience ran the gamut. There were negative experiences like that one with that woman and then there were unbelievably beautiful experiences. It really depended on the door that I knocked on, the goal of the day. Sometimes it was talk to Trumpsters who might be in the middle and sometimes it was talk to people who never vote and get them to understand that not only their vote matters, but they matter. And those kind of conversations, spending time with people and being like, "Why do you think you don't matter? And god, you're so wrong." And really helping them understand that. It was beautiful. Having empathy is a beautiful thing. No question. But it's also so much more complicated than that or complex than that, you know?
Dylan: Yeah. I think you're right. And I also, I noticed that when you were telling the deep canvasing story at the beginning, that you very quickly talked about all the other amazing experiences you had and you focused on this one woman who said absolutely offensive things. And that is not to negate that she did say offensive things. And you have every right to be offended by that. And not only that, you have every right ... I'm telling you this. (Amir giggles) Honey, you're your own human, you can do whatever you want. But you of course have every right to focus on that. And I think what you just said is such a change of tune, because I think ... I mean, I've talked to people who do deep canvasing and they've talked about the similar ... Or they've talked about how they recognize their work on this show. I'm not calling myself a deep canvasser because I think that's a really amazing practice that people train for and I don't want to flatter myself. But I think the joys of deep canvasing that you just described are the same joys I feel doing this show. And that, no, it's not always that you're knocking on the door and it's the quintessential American flag-flying Trump voter, who you're like, "Wow, we do get along." And sometimes that is wonderful. Right?
Amir: Yeah.
Dylan: And it can be wonderful. But then it's also in that gray territory where it's like, "oh, I cannot fit you neatly in a box, but yet we are having some really wild connection that we might never duplicate with each other again." "But here I am at your doorstep" and maybe I'm flattering myself, but I think I'm doing the same digitally. You know?
Amir: Yeah. No. I think you absolutely are. And I think that that's ... Deep canvasing is a good and useful thing. Your show is a good and useful thing. Deep canvasing for me is something I had to take a break from because of some negative experiences. Your show is something that doesn't always work for me because of my own negative experiences. That doesn't negate the fact that your show is great and useful. And I think that ... I hope that's one of the things you take away from it is that ... Or from this conversation is that even if I can't listen to your show (Dylan laughs) because it upsets me, that doesn't mean I respect you any less. That doesn't mean your show is any less valuable. Right?
Dylan: Yeah.
Amir: And certainly doesn't mean you are any less of a beautiful fucking badass.
Dylan: Yeah. Yeah. What you're totally right to call out is, as we touched on briefly at the beginning of this call, it's like, it is so easy to take online disagreement with something that you've done as disagreement with who you are as a person. And maybe a lot of people are really good at not taking it that way, you know? And honestly, go them. (Amir giggles, Dylan laughs) But I didn't create the show because I'm good at it!
Amir: Yeah. I'll tell you this. Wherever this goes out, I'm not reading the comments on this. (laughs) Because I'm because I'm bad at that. I will look at the comments and someone who disagrees with what I say on here 10%, will totally internalize that into, oh my gosh. Hundreds of people hate me. Right?
Dylan: Yes!
Amir: So yeah, don't get me wrong! I'm not saying this is something I'm great at.
Dylan: Well, one of the blessed things about podcasts is there's no real singular comment section. (Amir giggles) People can comment under a post I make about it, but the comment section is in our brains and we can have these conversations with ourselves. And I just want to say, if someone does say something like that, we can produce an episode between- (laughs)
Amir: Oh God, I want that so badly! (Dylan laughs) A conversation with someone who thinks Amir is a Nazi. (laughs)
Dylan: What if this was all a long con to just produce another episode?
Amir: Why stop at one episode, Dylan?
Dylan: Why stop at one episode? Honey, let's go-
Amir: Full season.
Dylan: For two baby. A whole season. No. I mean-
Amir: Conversations with People Who Hate Amir. Let's do it!
Dylan: Yeah. It's happening. (Amir laughs) It's like you hand it off to a new host each year. Honestly, great idea.
Amir: Oh, perfect.
Dylan: Yeah. It's going to happen. I mean, I just want to say, this conversation has been incredible for me and you're amazing and I think you're so great. But not only because of who you are, but I think this conversation has been so helpful for me because the email you wrote me in 2017 and the very similar email that you wrote recently that we read, we had a dramatic reading of at the top of this call, it has been both a knot in my side and a seed that has been planted that has helped me be more aware. And I mean those two together. Sometimes a seed can feel like a knot when you're like, "What the fuck is this thing doing here? Why isn't it sprouting?" You just want to change immediately. And I just want to tell you how much I appreciate this because talking to you about this today has alleviated for me this intense ... Because when you get an email like yours, you feel like you're doing something wrong. When one person who you think is smart, who is smart, but you also think is smart, tells you something, gives you criticism, you take it hard. And maybe I'll speak just for myself. I take it hard. And so talking to you about this has been amazing. So thank you.
Amir: I mean that's incredibly beautiful and also very ... What a lesson, right?
Dylan: Yeah.
Amir: That the conversation that we had digitally did something to us both. But the conversation that we're having here is so much more valuable and deep and filled with empathy. I'm incredibly honored that I could have even the slightest impact on your work because I really aspire to your work and admire what you do. So yeah, I was nervous having this conversation because I've always wanted to be your friend. Do you know what I mean? (both laugh) So I'm so glad that-
Dylan: Well, mission accomplished.
Amir: This has gone well. Because like I said in my very last email, I want the best for you. I want your book to be successful. I want your pod to be successful. I want you to be successful. I want your message to ring out everywhere because I think you're dope. Even if I'm not going to listen to your pod. You know what I mean? Although I think I maybe should listen to some of the later ones because the idea of you moderating conversations between other people is very interesting to me because, like I said, I think you're so skilled at managing a conversation. And why I think you'd be a fucking great deep canvasser by the way.
Dylan: Maybe that's the next project is going to be not a public one at all (both laugh).I think there's justice to that. Well, I also have to say, I mean, yeah, like I said, I was also nervous when I got on this call in a way that I'm not typically nervous for other calls. And so thank you for saying yes to talking to me.
Amir: Well, thank you for the invitation. When I got it, I was like, oh, that's crazy so yes. (Dylan laughs) I have no idea what's going to happen. And it's funny, my wife was like, "What are you hoping to achieve by being on this podcast with this guy who you clearly disagree with and are all of his fans going to be like, 'How dare you disagree with him?', and come and attack you and stuff?" And I was like, "Look, I just feel like whatever Dylan's doing, I want to support it because I think it's good. And so even if this conversation doesn't go well, well, at the end of that we can delete stuff that identifies me or we can delete the whole conversation if we want. But if Dylan wants me to participate with him in something, I want to be there because I think he's cool."
Dylan: Well, I just also want to say that was a beautiful microcosm of your wife to you was you to me of "why would you want to do this?" (laughs) "I can't imagine..." It's like a beautiful little parallel. Well with that, I ... Well, we are officially friends now. No longer just digital friends.
Amir: Yay!
Dylan: We are digital face to digital face, but then we're going to make this happen in person very soon.
Amir: Someday soon. Yes.
Dylan: I trust this. Well, truly, at the risk of repeating myself, I think you're wonderful. And as wild as it is to say, I thank you for the emails that you wrote me (Amir laughs) because they connected us together. And I also totally accept that this project does not have to be for you and that's great. That's great.
Amir: Totally. Well, I mean, yeah, at the risk of repeating myself, thank you. And I just think you're awesome and good luck with the show and the book.
Dylan: It's so mutual. It's so mutual. Okay. I'm going to end this beautiful Zoom call, but you're wonderful.
Amir: Thanks again, Dylan. This was really fun.
Dylan: This was so good. This was so good.
Amir: I'm glad we did it.
Dylan: Me too. Bye Amir.
Amir: Bye.
[Conversation ends. The drumbeat from ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals kicks in.]
Dylan [VOICEOVER CLOSING CREDITS]: If you have an idea for a conversation for this show, head on over to www dot conversationswithpeoplewhohateme dot com and fill out the brief submission form.
Conversations with People Who Hate Me is part of the TED Audio Collective.
This episode was mixed by Vincent Cacchione, the theme song is “These Dark Times” by Caged Animals, the logo was designed by Philip Blackowl with a photo by Mindy Tucker, and this show is made by me, Dylan Marron.
You can preorder Conversations with People Who Hate Me the book by following the link in the description of this episode, or you can buy it wherever you buy books.
Thanks so much for listening. And guess what? We are weekly now! So stay tuned next week for a brand new conversation and until then, remember: there’s a human on the other side of the screen.
[Chorus of ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals plays.]