Dylan Marron

EPISODE 39: YOU’RE A MEME

Milana: There's no part of me that has been able to detach content from being. And so I think that's why it was so hard for me to get on board with, "You're a meme." I'm like, "No, I'm not a meme! I have a mom! (laughs) I adopted a dog! I have bills!" Like, "I am three-dimensional!"

[Instrumental of ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals begins to play.]

Dylan [VOICEOVER INTRODUCTION]: Hey, I’m Dylan Marron and welcome to Conversations with People Who Hate Me, the show where we take a negative online interaction—or otherwise conflict-heavy relationship—and turn it into an offline phone call.

So, brief side note: This podcast can now also be consumed in book form… sort of. Conversations with People Who Hate Me, the book, takes a behind-the-scenes look at this podcast, and it is also a guide on how to navigate difficult conversations of your own. You can buy it now, so check out the link in the description of this episode. And with that: book promo over. Let’s get on to the podcast.

Chances are you know today’s guest even if you don’t know you know today’s guest. Milana Vayntrub is a writer, director and actor who you might recognize as the fictional AT&T employee Lily in AT&T ads everywhere. Her face can be seen in commercial breaks, digital ads, and billboards everywhere.

And her face is, as many faces are, attached to her body. And her body is something that a number of internet users feel entitled to comment on. In fact, commenting on her body became a meme—repeated over and over again like a cruel digital refrain wielded by a swarm of online commenters.

One of these commenters is a teenager who, over a year ago, wrote a private message to Milana on Instagram Stories invoking this misogynistic meme. Almost immediately, Milana wrote back and engaged him in a text-based chat. But they’ve never spoken to each other on the phone. Until today.

Now, due to his age, we’ve obscured this commenter’s identity. His voice, as you’ll soon hear, is distorted. And he has chosen to go by the alias “Onyx.”

First I’m going to chat with Milana, then Onyx, and then in the second half of this episode, I’ll finally connect them to each other. 

So, to kick things off, here, is Milana:

[Music fades. Conversation begins.]

Milana: Okay, recording.

Dylan: And then you know what? I'm also going to record on this Zoom experience. Did you hear the-

Milana: Yes.

Dylan: Okay, so my queen! (Milana laughs) Before we get in, it's a bright, early morning. (laughs) How are you? How are you feeling?

Milana: Good, I think.

Dylan: Okay, so early morning. Are you a morning person?

Milana: I have a deep love for the morning. (Dylan laughs)

Dylan: An admiration for, yeah.

Milana: I respect morning time. (Dylan laughs) I think sometimes, I can channel morning creativity, which feels really good. You know, like when it's just a little chilly, and you've got to put on a sweater and write something down.

Dylan: Yes. Yes. Yes.

Milana: Like, that's a nice little vibe.

Dylan: (giggling) Yeah.

Milana: Um, what I also have is a baby.

Dylan: Oh my god. (laughs)

Milana: And that makes sleep hit or miss, thus morning—my relationship to the morning—has definitely changed.

Dylan: And it's like "what is a morning anymore?"

Milana: What is time? (Dylan laughs)

Dylan: I honestly don't know. (Milana laughs) I don't know!

Milana: No, can anyone answer that?

Dylan: But you definitely don't know what time is right now. You're like-

Milana: I live in shifts.

Dylan: Yeah. (laughs) You live to serve this new human being that you've created, yeah.

Milana: Truly, yeah.

Dylan: Okay, we love that. Um so, just before we get in, tell me about you. What would you like us to know? How do you identify? How do you identify professionally, creatively? What gets you excited? You can answer this question however you want.

Milana: I'm mostly just a person that likes to talk to people at grocery stores.

Dylan: (laughing) Okay.

Milana: And professionally, I act, and I write, and I direct. I work with a refugee aid nonprofit. That's like not something I could say professionally, but takes up a good amount of my time, so might as well. And also, I really love art, and painting, and architecture, and poetry books that are just tiny, you know? (Dylan laughs) I like having a poetry book by the toilet. I like having a little poetry book by the coffee machine. I like reading them out loud to my partner, even if he's busy doing something else and doesn't care. (Dylan laughs some more) I have had the same friends forever, so that's who I am.

Dylan: I love that. Kind of getting back on track, I could talk to you forever, but we are here to record an interview.

Milana: Let's do it.

Dylan: So, you're an actor/writer/director. This work has led to some really big opportunities, including that you act in and direct the new slate of AT&T commercials that are out. In fact, I would suspect that many people listening have seen your face before, whether they knew it or not, watching an AT&T commercial.

Milana: And for that, I am sorry.

Dylan: (laughing) Yes.

Milana: The amount of times that people have had to see my face against their will, for that I apologize.

Dylan: Okay, so the official apology. You heard it here first. (Milana giggles) And that's really what this is about, (Milana laughs) apologizing for you showing your face to us. And thank you, that's it. That is the end of this episode.

Milana: Goodnight.

Dylan: Yeah, this is goodnight.

Milana: And I hope you accept.

Dylan: There's actually no other guest. (Milana laughs) It's just... um, back on track: so this opportunity, I assume, has many amazing consequences.

Milana: Totally.

Dylan: But, this is the modern digital age, and-

Milana: ... and this is your podcast!

Dylan: ... and this is my podcast! So, we have to contend with the fact that exposure is a double-edged sword, and it comes with some very negative consequences too. When did you start feeling those negative consequences?

Milana: You know, just because I am a face on TV a lot—for commercials—I started getting a lot of unwanted attention around my looks and body, and I started to feel objectified against my will. Like, as an actor, I am in some ways saying like, (adopting a funny voice) "I am a puppet here for you to objectify," you know? (Dylan laughs) "I am this object. Here I am. Look at my wobbly arm." And then in other ways, I'm like... Well, two things. One is, it becomes not just comments on my body, but it becomes actions that people want to take towards my body. So, around August of last year, 2020, some promotional images were released where it was my full body, and I think that once I became somebody with a body, (laughs) I don't know, people's brains broke. I'm not sure what... I don't know what would make so many people feel like it was okay to comment the gross, icky, objectifying things that they did to me, but particularly the term that was used, that I think is really gross, is "Mommy milker." As someone who understands the sacred beauty of feeding a baby, I'm even more offended by it. Like, as a woman who wants to support women who need to feed their babies in public, or whatever else they decide to do, and the "Mommy milker, give me give me." Ugh. As I say it, I'm like "ugh" about it, is that it's a kind of like grubby, hands-on way to talk about my only body, and that it feels like people are like reaching out to touch me, or trying to. It's not like, "Wow, you look beautiful here," or even like, "Fuck, you look so fucking hot here." It's like, "Your mommy milkers. Give. Me. This. Give it to me!" That is... It feels like I have to keep saying "no."

Dylan: Yeah. So, we are here to talk about a specific message you received. If I'm understanding correctly, this is a DM you received on Instagram?

Milana: Mmm-hmm (affirmative).

Milana: Are you comfortable with me reading the message aloud?

Milana: Yeah.

Dylan: Okay, great. So, you received the following message, in a DM on Instagram.

Dylan [VOICEOVER]: Hey, this is Voiceover Dylan coming in with a quick clarifying detail that I didn’t mention in the interview: this message was in response to a tweet Milana had shared on instagram stories about systemic injustice. I realize that is a lot of words I’m throwing at you, so to put it more simply: Milana had made a political, awareness-raising post and this DM was in response to that post… just wanted to give you that context. Okay, let’s get back to it where Interview Dylan is about to read the message aloud: 

Dylan: "Yo, people follow you because they found out you have big tits. No one cares about your political..." Sorry, there's a typo. "No one cares about you political standpoint. It's not that I feel like this stuff it's important. Stuff like this is extremely important for building a better tomorrow. I just don't want to hear it from you. Stay if you fucking lane." I think that's supposed to be, "Stay in your fucking lane, milk woman." How did it feel to receive this message?

Milana: (deep inhale) It was hurtful for two reasons. One is this... Just the term "milk woman" is... I just am so over it, and hurt by... At the time, I was really hurt by it. Now, I think I've healed a little bit of that. But then the other thing is, I feel really strongly about the issues in the world, and kind of the only reason I've ever wanted a social media following is so that I can affect change. And for him to say, "It's not your place to affect change, because you have big tits," doesn't make a lot of sense, but because it was about like, "Your activism, the change that you want to make in the world doesn't matter." That's what really hurt me.

Dylan: Right. And then you did something interesting, which is that you decided to respond to this person. Did you respond right away?

Milana: Yeah. I think I did.

Dylan: So, in talking to this person who wrote this, what are you hoping to get out of this experience?

Milana: I just want to understand him more, and not just him, but people who write these kinds of things.

Dylan: Well, you have come to the right spot. (Milana laughs) That is what the intention is here.

Milana: Yeah.

Dylan: All right, so I will go talk to him, and then I will connect the two of you to each other. Does that sound good?

Milana: Sounds great. Can't wait.

Dylan [VOICEOVER]: After speaking to Milana, I start coordinating with this person. Exchanging messages back and forth, and then, finally, we set up a time to talk.

Dylan: Just so I can get a sound level, can you tell me something inconsequential, like, uh, you've chosen the name Onyx as your alias here today. What made you choose that name?

Onyx: I just really like the name Onyx. One of my favorite games, it's called Brawlhalla, it's a fighter game, where you can choose these different champions that you want to be, and one of my favorite is Onyx, because I'm terrible (Dylan laughs) at the game, so he's really the only one that I can play.

Dylan: You know, I love owning up to these things. I love it. Okay, so that's perfect. So, "Onyx." So, again, we're not using details, so we're not using exact locations, and we're not using names of anywhere, but I would love to know a little more about you. What's your daily life like? What is a normal week like in your world?

Onyx: Uh, I mean, I don't know exactly how many high school students you usually have on this interview, but my average week usually consists of waking up 15 minutes before my school bus comes, (Dylan laughs), uh, going to school, doing classes, and then I usually go home. On the weekends, I usually hang out with people, but during the week, it's pretty strictly you go to school, you come home, you do your homework, you go work out, and then you go to bed, repeat.

Dylan: What's your relationship to social media, when did you get on it, and how do you use it?

Onyx: I don't use social media a lot, other than the portion of it which you use to communicate. I have, you know, Snapchat, Instagram, all that stuff, Discord. I mean, I'll use Instagram DMs, but I don't really post anything, ever. I mean, when you're my age, really, the biggest way to communicate is through social media, which kind of sucks. I'm a very in-person kind of person, but really any kind of platform where you don't have to be in person to say certain things will, in some way, be just a terrible, terrible place.

Dylan: Yeah, well you've come to the right show—

Onyx: I have.

Dylan: —this is, in fact, all that we explore.

Onyx: I have.

Dylan: So this is wonderful. So, I'll start here: When did you become aware of Milana?

Onyx: Well, a little story time for you.

Dylan: I'm ready.

Onyx: About maybe a year ago, Milana was going through a little bit of a hard time, because she had been in a lot of AT&T commercials, and people started finding her Instagram, started finding her outside of her in a work suit, and saw that she had large boobs. At that time, there was a really big meme... I don't know how to explain it. It was an ironic kind of meme, where if someone had big boobs, like they had "milkers." I believe it all originated from this one video, and it was like... It was a video that went something onto the lines of, (adopting a deep, animated voice) "Okay, I have this anime idea, right? So, first, there's this anime girl, and she has really big milkers, and I mean some real hababaloos" or something, I can't remember the actual thing, but it sparked this whole meme, this whole mommy milker whatever the fuck. I thought it was stupid, but-

Dylan: But the whole point of a meme is that, like you just repeat it, and I understand.

Onyx: Yeah. Memes, in many ways, are almost like inside jokes that you're able to tell with the entire world.

Dylan: Yeah. That's a good way to put it.

Onyx: And Milana kind of got caught in the crossfire of that in many ways, and people found out she had big tits, and just spammed her with shit about her boobs.

Dylan: Just so I understand, was this meme directly related to her, or rather, because this was already a meme, and you were aware of her, then-

Onyx: It was already a meme before her. She progressed it, definitely.

Dylan: How so?

Onyx: Because she became the target of the meme in many ways.

Dylan: It's interesting that you say that she progressed the meme just by-

Onyx: Existing.

Dylan: Yeah.

Onyx: Yeah.

Dylan: I feel like that kind of puts an unfair agency on her for progressing this thing that she had no say in, and in fact, kind of became the victim of at the bottom of a pile-on.

Onyx: Yeah, 100%. I mean, that really is the price of having any amount of fame or influence online. Like, it many ways, that is the price that you have to pay.

Dylan: Um. So, yeah, so I—okay, so, here, here we go. Here's the message. You wrote the following message, as an Instagram DM to Milana, in response to, if I understand correctly, a story in which she shared an infographic.

Onyx: Something onto that line, yeah.

Dylan: So you said, quote, "Yo, people follow you because they found out you have big tits. No one cares about you," I think that's supposed to be "your political standpoint. It's not that I feel like this stuff it's important. Stuff like this is extremely important for building a better tomorrow. I just don't want to hear it from you." (Onyx begins to laugh) And then you said, "Stay if you fucking lane." I think that's, "Stay in your fucking lane, milk woman." (Onyx lets out a huge laugh). Wow.

Onyx: That's a lot to unpack there.

Dylan: There is a lot to unpack, because you're like, "This stuff is politically important."

Onyx: Yeah. Like, I completely supported the things she was saying. I just thought it was stupid that it was coming from her.

Dylan: Why?

Onyx: I think the idea of infographics, I think the idea of... What's the word? I feel like I've had a stroke.

Dylan: No. No, no. You're-

Onyx: What's it called?

Dylan: Activism?

Onyx: Yeah, activism. Activism. Social activism. I think that is the stupidest thing ever.

Dylan: Interesting.

Onyx: And it does absolutely nothing.

Dylan: Social media activism specifically?

Onyx: Yeah, it's not action. It's not activism. It's just people sharing things.

Dylan: Hmm.

Onyx: And that's just for anyone. That's not just an attack on Milana. That's just anyone.

Dylan: Do you remember at all what was going through your head? Like, what were the circumstances of your time when you sent this message? You were just scrolling. Paint the picture for what that was like.

Onyx: I don't exactly remember what I had been doing at the time. It was definitely a school night. I remember that, because I had a ton of homework to do. But, so, I have ADHD, and at that time, I was on Ritalin. Still am, but you get very angry during the come-off.

Dylan: Interesting.

Onyx: You cannot eat. You cannot sleep. Kind of sucks. You get work done, but it kind of sucks. At that time, I was in a mood. I had things to say. I wanted to say them, and I didn't care who heard them. And I wanted people to know my opinion, and the filter that you usually walk around with, the filter that you usually carry with you in your day-to-day life, it was off, for whatever reason that night. So I'm just saying whatever. So yeah, that's how it happened.

Dylan: And if I'm reading it correctly, tell me if I'm making the wrong assumption, but it sounds like you thought you were kind of just sending this message out into the ether, it was never going to be read, and it was just being launched into cyberspace.

Onyx: Yeah, and if it wasn't, I didn't think she was going to give me the time of day, because I wouldn't.

Dylan: Interesting.

Onyx: I would not care what a, at that time, 15-year-old child had to say about the things I was posting, so it was a little strange for me. Even now, I still don't really see why anyone would really care what I have to say. I'm not really that important. I'm actually quite the opposite.

Dylan: Why do you say that?

Onyx: Compared to the vast majority of individuals in this world, I have a substantial, substantial lack of worldly information, maturity, wisdom, you may say. And at that time, it was even worse.

Dylan: You just hit into exactly what I think all humans are kind of dealing with, because I think we're all asking like, "What do I matter?" And then I think, especially the internet brings that into focus, because you're like, "There are so many of us," you know? Like, "I'm just a speck." I think that what's really hard is that we don't realize the impact we have on the internet, so you assume, like, "I wouldn't care about me, so why does she care about me?" Whereas I think we don't even realize the power that we have when we message someone anything, and the fact that no matter how many followers they have, or no matter what blue checks or verified version follows their name, many people care about what other people say about them. And you know, as a fan of you, I'm going to say you do matter, not to make this too cheesy or anything, but-

Onyx: Well, thank you Mr. Dylan. There are no words within the English language (Dylan laughs) which I could describe how flattered I am that you care about me.

Dylan: I genuinely think you matter, and I'm saying this very sincerely. I feel like when you have a conversation with someone, you're like, "Well, you're a human being to me now, and that means that I care about your existence," so just know that. I think that it's easy to forget that online, when we can slip in and out of DMs, and we can just message people, and stuff like that. But I'm curious, do you see that this message could have hurt her, could have offended her? Do you see how it could have hurt her or offended her?

Onyx: I mean, words are words. Words can hurt people. Like, clearly there was something there that kind of struck a chord, so to speak, but I wouldn't be able to put myself in that kind of situation, partly because I don't care what people tell me on the internet. You know, I say this now, (Dylan laughs) and the other part is, I've never been in a position where I had large amounts of people telling me that I sucked every single day, so you know, there's a bit of a wall there.

Dylan: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Onyx: Have you thought about what you're going to name this episode?

Dylan: No. It'll come out of our conversation.

Onyx: Oh, man.

Dylan: I know.

Onyx: Have you spoken to Milana yet?

Dylan: I have.

Onyx: You have? The suspense is killing me.

Dylan [VOICEOVER]: Alright. Now that I’ve spoken to both of them separately, it is time to connect them with each other. 

Onyx: Hello?

Dylan: Hey. How are ya?

Onyx: Doing pretty good.

Dylan: All right. Milana is here, so you're recording?

Onyx: I am currently recording.

Dylan: Oh my god, I am recording too. I'm going to admit Milana to the room. All right, you feel good?

Onyx: I'm a little nervous. (Dylan laughs)

Dylan: It's okay! It's all good! I feel the same way. I feel always excited and jittery, and then at the end, we're all going to be best of friends, so this is great.

Onyx: How wholesome.

Dylan: All right, I'm admitting her. Here we go.

Milana: Hi.

Dylan [VOICEOVER]: Their conversation is coming right up, but first let’s take a quick break.

[BREAK] 

Dylan [VOICEOVER]: Okay, we’re back. Now Milana and Onyx have just exchanged spoken words with each other for the first time. Let’s continue.

Dylan: We're all here!

Milana: Hey, we're all here!

Dylan: So, Milana, Onyx. You know, I've gotten the opportunity to know each of you separately, on our solo calls and our unrecorded calls before that, but separate from this comment, separate from what we're here to discuss or this DM, I would love for you guys to just get to know each other. So, Milana, do you want to go first? Tell Onyx a little about you?

Milana: Yeah, um...

Onyx: Lay it on me, girly. (Dylan laughs)

Milana: (Milana laughs) I'm just an improviser. I'm just like a... (Milana's audio fades down).

Dylan [VOICEOVER]: You just heard this stuff so, in the name of not repeating information and respecting your valuable time, I’m going to speed ahead to a question Onyx had for Milana.

Onyx: As a bit of an icebreaker, when you came onto this podcast, I obviously knew what you would look like, but in regards to me, I was just a faceless entity on the internet, so what were you expecting?

Milana: I actually did know what you looked like, because when you first wrote me, your profile wasn't private, and one of the reasons I reached out to you, and not the many other people that messaged me, was because I could see your humanity in your photos. I could see that you're a kid, and that you were hanging out with girls, so part of that, for me, meant that you knew how to respect women, or that you could see them as people.

Onyx: Always nice. Always nice to have.

Milana: Yeah, so you seemed like someone I could reach. You seemed like someone that isn't just, I don't know, just like two-dimensionally mean. I felt like I could see some of your depth through your photos, and through the relationships that you were projecting online, so I did know what you look like. You look different now, because I haven't... I mean, cause it's been a while, but-

Onyx: Cool.

Dylan: Milana, just so Onyx can hear, was there another reason that you wanted to reach out? Was there a way to maybe kind of squash the feeling of fear that sometimes happens with random internet messages?

Milana: Well, so Onyx's messages, and all of the other messages I receive from people I don't follow, go into a separate folder, that I don't see, and I'm so grateful that that's even a feature, that I do not have to see so many of those messages. But, around this time, I was getting death threats, and people were like showing up to old addresses that they could find online, and I was really scared, like really, really, really scared. And I started reading the messages in that other folder as a way of seeing if there were other threats, as a way of just informing myself if there was anyone else out there that I needed to know about, or report, or something. Yeah, and I was just hoping to get to the root of it to make it stop.

Onyx: So, before you said any of this, to myself, to really anyone who was just watching from the outside, you wouldn't have seen the death threats. You wouldn't have seen the people coming to old addresses, et cetera. And so up to this point, I thought it was a meme. I came into this podcast thinking it was going to be a conversation about letting the internet get to you, but with this information, it's very hard to try and say anything that would present the idea that I would know what to say, and I obviously have never experienced what you went through. I hope I never will, and if I had known that it was like, "Oh, this girl is getting death threats, because people are stalking her, showing up at her house, saying they're going to rape her," it would have changed the way that I presented myself, or at all. So, from me to you, I apologize.

Dylan: Milana, how does that feel to hear?

Milana: Um. There's so much. One is thank you for the apology. I totally accept it. The second is even you, just hearing it come out of your mouth, of using the word like "stalkers" and "rape," I am immediately on the verge of tears, (laughs) because it's like... It's not a so-distant past event, and it was just so hard. And I was pregnant. (laughs) Like, it was all really, really, really intense. So yeah, I understand that you didn't know. I did do some lives where I talked about how much I wanted it to stop.

Dylan [VOICEOVER]: Thes “lives” that Milana is referring to here are referring to a series of Instagram Live sessions where she would go on and talk about the abuse that she was receiving. And if you’re unfamiliar with what a “live” is, it's basically a live broadcast from your phone that other instagram users can comment on in a constantly-updating scroll that viewers can see at the bottom part of the screen. Okay, now you know the architecture of that and what they’re referring to when they say “lives,” let us continue…

Milana: I did respond to some comments here and there, but I... Yeah, I don't expect everybody to know everything I say on the internet, so I think it's fine that you didn't know.

Onyx: In general, when I watched these... Because I watched quite a few of these lives, and from someone watching that, you would see that and think, "Oh, this is just someone that can't take a joke. This is just someone that is letting the meme get to them," and it's-

Milana: Sorry, can I interrupt?

Dylan: Yeah.

Milana: I just want to understand what the joke is.

Onyx: The-

Milana: Because I work in jokes. I literally work in jokes.

Onyx: Yeah.

Milana: And I want to understand what the joke is.

Onyx: So, I believe it started from this anime Vine, where someone said, "Okay, I got this idea for this new anime, and this cute girl walks in, and she's got just enormous boobs, I mean, real milkers, absolute baba-la-voes," or whatever, and just continuously getting more and more elaborate with the way of saying "boob." I believe that's where it started, and then you were kind of caught in the crossfire, because people were just figuring out, "Oh, the AT&T girl exists, is a real person, and oh, she has large tits," and-

Milana: Still do.

Onyx: ... people took-

Milana: Still do. (Dylan laughs)

Dylan: They're still there.

Onyx: Yeah.

Milana: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Onyx: And you were a significant part of the meme, and to us, it was just a joke, like we think boob is funny, (Milana laughs) and this liberal, libtard girl just can't take a joke, and is getting angry, so we're going to continue, because we think it's funny to get a reaction. It was a troll scheme. Like, kids, really mainly my age, just wanted rewards, and it was just like, "I'm going to go troll this girl on her live, because I think it's funny, because I want to be part of this inside joke of oh, let's make fun of this girl with huge tits." But it's devastating to kind of see how a meme has devastating and lasting effects for the person for years. And it's strange, because I didn't even know. Like, it's always just been like a meme to me. It's been a meme to the whole of the internet, so just hearing about what it actually meant for you, it's hard to hear, and it's created a much deeper sense of respect, and a much deeper sense of empathy. Not exactly sure what to say. Don't exactly know what words to say to help, or make things better. I don't know, but it's opened my eyes a lot, and it's certainly going to change the way that I think about the way that people are treated on the internet.

Dylan: Yeah. Well, I think Onyx, what you're getting at, which you encapsulated so well, is like, I think this is the harm of memes and pile-ons, because memes, and pile-ons, and jokes, they're really so fun for the people who take part in them, and they're so fleeting. You take part, you forget that you took part, you forget that you sent a message at all. It costs so little of yourself, of your time, of your energy to send this, and if anything, it gives you something. It gives you a sense of belonging to this joke, you know? Onyx, when I spoke to you one-on-one, you referred to memes as like a huge inside joke that a lot of people get to be part of, and that's totally what they feel like, and then you forget about the inside joke, and then the joke is overplayed. I think what we're all contending with, as like a species now, is that there are very real victims of these jokes, and that even something that comes from a funny Vine, the people who then become targets of that funny Vine, or targets of a repetition of that funny Vine, have to live with the consequences, and I think we're all contending with this. We're all figuring out how to live in this new reality, and Milana, you very much became... Well, I think you were a victim of the natural and horrible misogyny that just permeates most internet spaces, but then you also... You had to feel this so acutely, and you had to deal with it yourself essentially, because there is very little support system for this. How does that feel, to know that it was part of this meme that was born on Vine?

Milana: (laughing) I didn't even know Vine was-

Onyx: I don't think it was a Vine.

Milana: ... a thing anymore!

Dylan: Wait, sorry, say that again? You don't think it was a Vine, Onyx?

Onyx: I don't think it was a Vine. I think it was just a video.

Dylan: Okay, so a video, but Milana, how do you even process that?

Milana: The way that I see and experience the internet is so different, and it's probably because I'm a good 10, 15 years older than you, and I started making YouTube videos kind of at the beginning of YouTube, so for me, I always felt like there was a person behind the camera. So, I don't have this detachment, of like, "This person becomes a meme." It's like, no, this person has a family, or this person has a job they have to show up to. This person is figuring out how to pay their bills. This person is figuring out how to break up with their partner. Like, there's so many... This person has a mom. Like, t here's no part of me that has been able to detach content from being. And so I think that's why it was so hard for me to get on board with, "You're a meme. Just forget about it. You're a meme. Just be a part of the joke. You're a meme. It'll pass." I'm like, "No, I'm not a meme! I have a mom! I adopted a dog! I have bills!" Like, "I am three-dimensional!" So yeah, I think that when we talk about some of the pain of the internet, it's the distance that it creates between people, to make them not see each other as people.

Onyx: To us, us as in the internet, we cannot perceive you as a human being, in a sense.

Milana: (laughs) Yeah.

Onyx: You're an entity, you know? You are the content creator, we are the content watcher. We experience, you create. You're something that we fill our day with whenever we're not doing something that we find necessarily meaningful. The people that were on your lives and people that were posting milk emojis, they're doing that because they're bored, because they don't have anything better to do with their lives. If they did, they would be doing that. And when I sent you the message, I couldn't even see us having a conversation, because we are on totally different levels, but the thing that I think would help you understand, and help you heal, is the fact that to us, none of it really mattered.

Milana: You know, it's kind of like saying, "You know, the time that that guy assaulted you in the subway, I know it had an effect on you, but if it makes you feel better, just know that it didn't really matter to him."

Onyx: It sucks. It is truly terrible. I would not wish what you went through on my greatest enemy. I have a mother. I have a girlfriend. I have many female friends. Knowing just even a fraction of what they've went through, with people sending unsolicited dick pics, people sending this, people sending that, creepy people on the internet, and hearing the things that you experienced, having to experience that on a large scale, I couldn't even fathom it.

Milana: So can you help me understand? Why did you decide to write me a private message?

Onyx: Well, it's a little hard to send you something in a live with 10,000 people, and whenever you send someone a direct message, it's like you're sending that to the person. Whenever you're part of a live or whatever, you're just part of the mob. I didn't expect for any sort of response. To me, I can't even comprehend why you would care, truly.

Milana: I'm happy to tell you why I care, but before that, I just want to understand why did you want me to receive that message?

Onyx: Because it's the way that I felt. What I sent you was in regards to some infographic, about some sort of issue that was going on in the United States, or international, I don't really know. I can't remember. And I was trying to say that you're shouting into a bubble in many ways. And this is not you. This is everyone. It had nothing to do with the meme. It had nothing to do with your boobs. It had nothing to do with anything. It was like, to me, the idea of sending an infographic to raise awareness, it's stupid to me. I've never understood it, and that's what I was trying to say.

Milana: So you were trying to save me from wasting my time?

Onyx: In a way, yeah. I mean, it's a bit of a crude way to put it. I didn't think you were going to respond. I didn't think you were going to see it. I was just shouting into a void. It wasn't something that I actively thought, "I would like to hurt this person." I hope that the words that I've said, whether if they've hurt, I am truly sorry, but I feel like you knowing the truth is what, and you hearing the terrible truth of the internet is really what you deserve.

Dylan: Milana, what... Let's start very specific. Have you been hurt by anything that... or multiple things that Onyx has said on this call?

Milana: You know, I've been hurt by just reliving it. (laughs) Not "I have been hurt," but "it does hurt to just talk about rape threats." It's not a fun thing to revisit, and (a baby cries faintly in the background) I... I'm sorry, I can hear my baby crying, and I just need to-

Dylan: Yeah, go-

Milana: I'm just so sorry.

Dylan: Go check.

[Milana gets up from her seat and quickly leaves the conversation.]

Dylan: While she's checking on that, what can I do... How are you feeling? Just checking in on you.

Onyx: Feeling a little weird.

Dylan: Yeah?

[A door clicks open in the background of Milana’s mic.]

Onyx: I feel guilty for something I didn't do.

Dylan: You're feeling guilty for the big mob stuff, you mean?

Onyx: Yeah.

[Milana resumes her seat.]

Onyx: Is the child okay?

Milana: Yes, the child is fine. Here, just-

Dylan: I-

Milana: Oh, go ahead.

Dylan: You first.

Milana: Well, I don't hold you responsible for the mob. If you feel bad about the behavior of what, to me, felt like millions of people, but was probably... maybe thousands? I don't know. I relinquish you of that guilt. You do not need to carry it. It is not yours. But I really appreciate your caring. I really appreciate you caring. And you know, I'm going to hold myself accountable too, for I think what was an illogical expectation, maybe, of this call. Maybe it was just too damn optimistic. I was really hoping to just make the world a little better (laughs). And I was really hoping to talk to you and... Kind of like how you can't understand why I care, I have a hard time understanding why you would take the time to write a message to somebody that is hurtful, that's using demeaning words, that's telling them that their opinions don't matter, and then saying, "Why do you care that I wrote that?" Or, "I didn't expect you to ever read it, but I took the time to send it," you know? There are things that I just... You won't understand me, and I know that I'm going to have a hard time understanding you. And also, in terms of like the bigger conversation, I do really appreciate you explaining a lot of that to me. I didn't know about the meme, the mommy milkers video, but it was just directed at my body. (Milana takes a deep breath) And that's why it feels like assault, is that it was thousands of boys, talking about things that they wanted to do to me, that I did not invite them to talk about, and I am a survivor of sexual assault, as most women are, unfortunately, and to have people say, "You got big tits, so we're going to talk about it!" There is this idea that there is something I did that made me... or something that I have, that made me deserving of this kind of conversation, you know? Me being in the public eye, me having this body, that made it so that this was kind of inevitable for me. But it's kind of, in essence, victim blaming. It's kind of, in essence, saying that there is something somebody did that made them deserving of assault, and I think that that is always a broken statement. I think it's not true. I don't think there's anything anyone could ever do that would make them deserving of assault.

Dylan: Can I pause us here?

Onyx: Yes.

Milana: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dylan: I feel like the theme of what we're talking about is not knowing our impact, so Onyx, for example, you keep saying like, "I don't know why you'd ever want to talk to me. I don't know why my opinions, ideas matter." And I think that might be at the crux of what we're dealing with, which is to say like, you do matter. I mean, I think in the messages we send online, in the comments we write online, we don't realize our impact. I think we can feel like a tiny little cell in the vast ocean of the internet, but there is in fact a lot... We have an impact, and I think that, correct me if I'm wrong, but it feels like there has been friction on this call, that I totally didn't expect from our solo calls, and I think it's because we're almost kind of having two different conversations, right? One is someone was hurt, and someone, this other person, can't comprehend how their "insignificance," and heavy quotes on that, could even hurt that person. But just to focus it in these final moments, I want to know specifically what we want the other person to know about us, just that. One thing you want the other person to know about you. Milana, do you want to go first?

Milana: I just want you to know that I am a person, and that the communications that I experience online are personal, feel personal to me, and I try not to treat people differently online than I would treat them in person, because the consequences feel the same to me.

Dylan: And then Onyx, one thing you'd like Milana to know about you, that you maybe feel hasn't been fully expressed or understood on this call?

Onyx: Something I'd like you to understand about me, walking away from this conversation, is first and foremost, I was never really a part of the meme. Two, I did not know how it was affecting you. Three, I would like you to know that this conversation has opened my eyes to a lot more, and in general, will make me think more in the future of how I treat others, the way that I think of others. Having to speak with you face-to-face has changed my perception of the internet in a way, and that three, that was... This is four, in general, I think you're pretty cool. I think you're a really good person, and I hope that you're able to heal, because at the end of the day, that's what we all want.

Milana: You know, that last one, I will ditto back to you. I think you're pretty cool, and I hope you can heal.

Dylan: So, I think with that being said, we'll say bye, just for now, and I will say personally, thank you both so much for taking the time and energy that it takes to come onto this. I know how much energy it takes from both of you. Milana, this is a tremendous lift, and Onyx, this is a huge step into a territory that you've never done before, and so I think you both showed up in really incredible ways. So from my perspective, I feel so grateful for the time that you have both given to me, and now that you've given to each other, so I just want to say thank you, and we will all see each other on the internet.

Milana: Okay.

Onyx: Farewell-

Milana: See you guys online.

Onyx: ... internet.

Dylan: Bye, guys.

Milana: Goodbye.

[Conversation ends. The drumbeat from ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals kicks in.]

Dylan [VOICEOVER CLOSING CREDITS]: If you have an idea for a conversation for this show, head on over to www dot conversationswithpeoplewhohateme dot com and fill out the brief submission form.

Conversations with People Who Hate Me is part of the TED Audio Collective.

This episode was mixed by Vincent Cacchione, the theme song is “These Dark Times” by Caged Animals, the logo was designed by Philip Blackowl with a photo by Mindy Tucker, and this show is made by me, Dylan Marron.

You can preorder Conversations with People Who Hate Me the book by following the link in the description of this episode, or you can buy it wherever you buy books.

Thanks so much for listening. And guess what? We are weekly now! So stay tuned next week for a brand new conversation and until then, remember: there’s a human on the other side of the screen.

[Chorus of ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals plays.]