EPISODE 36: DANGEROUSLY DEAD WRONG
Peter: When she said, "but the reality is much more chill than what they're telling you," I was like, (singing/screaming) “fuuuuuuuck.”
(Dylan & Lauren laugh)
[Instrumental of “These Dark Times” by Caged Animals begins to play]
Dylan [VOICEOVER INTRODUCTION]: Hey, and welcome back to Conversations with People Who Hate Me, the show where I take a negative online interaction and I turn it into an offline phone call. I'm your host, Dylan Marron and oh my God, it has only been two weeks since the previous episode. And wow, it just feels like everything has changed.
I don't even know if it is appropriate to have music right now in the background of this introduction. (music stops) That's how much things have changed. Um, we can have music. (music starts back up again)
So we're in the middle of a global pandemic, and two weeks ago I truly didn't feel scared at all. And now I wash my hands after touching any object in my house, haven't seen any friends for weeks, and I own way more toilet paper than I know what to do with. And what you should have been listening to right now was the season finale. But I'm going to save that for another time.
As we've all hunkered down into our little shelters, socially distancing from each other, we have been and we're going to be spending a lot of time online and there's so much amazing stuff that comes from that like super fast information, the ability to FaceTime your isolated friends and funny memes. But our increasingly online lives also mean misinformation. And yes, you know this show, online fights.
Now episodes for this show usually take weeks to produce. I have to earn my guests' trust, maintain that trust, assure them that this is in fact a loving show, and that I will honor their stories and their requests for anonymity, and then we have to set up a time to record, and I edit their recordings and all that beautiful behind the scenes stuff that you don't have to see. But this week I felt that it would just be weird if we didn't talk about the terrifying global pandemic of coronavirus that is happening right now. So, you are about to hear the fastest produced episode in the history of this show. Because today I'm hosting a call between two friends, Lauren and Peter, who got into a heated exchange on Facebook about the severity of the coronavirus.
Lauren implored her Facebook friends to realize the situation was "much chiller than the media would have you believe" and that launched a whole bunch of people commenting in opposition to her, and her longtime friend Peter wrote back that she was "dangerously dead wrong".
Now, as you listen to this, please, please keep in mind: Lauren's post was written on March 12th, 2020. This conversation between Lauren and Peter, the one you're about to hear was recorded on March 19th, 2020. I am recording this introduction, me right now, on March 22nd, 2020. And new information is coming out every moment.
So maybe you'll hear this and be furious that Lauren's post is too relaxed, or maybe that the tone of our conversation isn't panicked enough, or maybe that I, right now in this voiceover recording, am not as panicked as you think I should be, or maybe that I'm too panicked. Please keep in mind that all of us are taking this day by day. That means Lauren and Peter and me and you, and I would say just about every other human on this planet, we are all taking this day by day. We are all adjusting to new information and just making the best choices we can from the only vantage point we know, our own. What we said two weeks ago will not match up to what we are saying today and that will seem outdated two weeks from now.
To put it simply, we are all going through it.
Please stay safe. Please keep up to date with verified information. Please take care of the people around you. And, okay, now after the most somber intro in this show's history, here is my call with Lauren and Peter.
[Music fades. Phone rings. Caller picks up. All guests are now connected.]
Lauren: Hello?
Dylan: Hey, Lauren.
Lauren: Hello!
Dylan: Hi! You are on the phone with me and you are also on the phone with your friend, Peter. (laughs)
Peter: Hi, Lauren.
Lauren: Hey, Peter.
Peter: Hull-ooo! (all laugh)
Dylan: Okay, I love this. I love everything that's happening right now. This is communication in the New Age of COVID-19. We are surviving, we are thriving. (Lauren laughs) Maybe this is how we're going to speak to our loved ones for the rest of our lives. (Peter and Lauren laugh) Actually, we're a family, the three of us are a family right now and I just wanted to let you know that. Listen, we're in really, truly unprecedented times right now. Everything is kind of weird. Everything is scary. We're all coping in different ways. Separate from COVID-19, separate from the coronavirus, separate from even this altercation or exchange you had on Facebook, I would love to just hear about you guys, just you as you and I'll ask you each this question. So, Lauren, well, I think Peter knows you a little better than I do. But just so we, I, listeners can get to know you in only as many details as you're comfortable sharing in a podcast, tell us about you.
Lauren: Oh, God. (laughs) I can never do that!
Dylan: Too much?
Lauren: Like even in interviews or like dating, it's like, what do I even ...
Dylan: No. Well, we can start light. Let's say, what did you do today?
Lauren: Yeah. I submitted all my ten pounds of paperwork for my application for licensure with the state of Minnesota.
Peter: Nice!
Dylan: Okay. Well, congratulations.
Peter: Oh, yeah!
Lauren: Thank you. Yeah, it finally happened.
Dylan: And so you're a therapist.
Lauren: Yes.
Dylan: Amazing. What are your hobbies, likes, dislikes, anything of the sort not- that's not a bullet point list you need to fulfill.
Lauren: Yeah, I live in Minnesota. I have a wolf dog that I love. I run a foodie page, so I love cooking and getting people involved with that.
Dylan: Okay, we love that.
Lauren: I don't know. I was kind of socially isolating before all this, so I already just hang out with my dog and read a book and drink a glass of wine.
Dylan: Listen, that's good. (Peter laughs) We celebrate a prepared queen. We stan a prepared queen, as they say on the internet.
Lauren: (laughing) Yas.
Dylan: And what are you doing for work right now?
Lauren: See, that's where I think Peter is also in a similar space. I'm not 100% sure. I haven't got the most recent update, but I think both of our lives were already in a little bit of upheaval. Like, I was between jobs and unemployed, and then I started Lyft driving and was kind of surviving off of that. But then now in Minnesota, all the bars and restaurants are shut down. So no one's really requesting Lyft rides except for commuters in the very early morning or late evening.
Dylan: So are you getting any business now at all?
Lauren: Not really.
Dylan: Oh, God.
Lauren: It's pretty tenuous. It's a little scary.
Dylan: Yeah, it's hard. How long will it take for the licensing paperwork to go through?
Lauren: I mean, this is where it's just so much Vogonity dealing with government bureaucracy. It could be anywhere from a month to three months. I don't know.
Dylan: Yeah. Okay, well, this is ... There's a siren passing right now, but you know what, it's the age of COVID-19. We're going to keep a siren in. Usually I'd be like, "hold for recording" and it's like, no, honey, we got to move on with our lives. It's a different time now.
Lauren: Absolutely.
Dylan: Lauren, so a pleasure to get to know you just in the little slice you're giving us. And I just want to confirm you're comfortable with the personal detail of the state of Minnesota staying in.
Lauren: I'm fine with that.
Dylan: Okay, great. All right, Peter, my friend onto you. Tell us about you. Tell us about Peter, anything you want to share on a recorded podcast, anything you're comfortable sharing, I would love to hear it.
Peter: All right. I am also in the mental health field as a direct support provider for adults with disabilities and mental illness. So that's been interesting work for a little over five years now. And we'll see. I'm interested in being involved in doing more community engagement. And I was also not getting enough hours, but with this outbreak challenge, suddenly hours are not a problem. I think I'm over 50 hours this week.
Lauren: Oh, shit.
Dylan: Oh my God.
Peter: Yeah. So it'll be good for the pocket book, and hopefully I can send at least a few bucks or maybe some kind of care package or beer or chocolates to some of my entertainer friends who are super going to be hurt in the next few months.
Lauren: I'm happy to deliver as a driver for you.
Dylan: Oh, this is great. Oh my God, look we're sharing an economy.
Peter: Okay, we're networking.
Dylan: Just so you know, if you hear a faucet going on in the background, that's my husband who now works from home washing his hands and I'm leaving it in because we're in the hyper realistic mode of the New Age right now.
Peter: Good.
Lauren: We're in pandemic reality now. Absolutely, it's a new simulation.
Dylan: Yeah, this is pandemic reality. Yeah, I feel like usually I'd make great pains to edit that out. And now I'm just like, you know what, no, we wash our hands now.
Peter: Right.
Dylan: And the great thing is that listeners can listen really closely to see if he was washing for 20 seconds or not (Peter and Lauren laugh), so here we are. This is a fun game we can play.
Peter: (singing) "Happy birthday to you..."
Dylan: Exactly, yeah. Let's actually go back and remix it to that song. So wait, I just want to say, Lauren, the idea you had that you can deliver those gift boxes for Peter, I'm just saying we're creating a new economy here on this phone call. I love it.
Lauren: We're having to. I did a delivery for another friend randomly today. Like it's- we're playing it by ear.
Dylan: I mean, we have to. Okay, so Peter, that's largely your work. What are you comfortable sharing about your life beyond work? Tell us about that.
Peter: I am an artist. I have gone bursts of many months at a time doing just my art for a living.
Dylan: Oh, wow. Congratulations.
Peter: Yeah, and that's been hard. I've also crashed really hard repeatedly from trying to make it just on my art. I've done performing arts and illustrative arts and muralling, logos, things like that, primarily illustrative work, and two cats. I've got two cats, Joxer and Gabrielle.
Dylan: Jaxer?
Peter: Joxer.
Dylan: Joxer. Joxer and Gabrielle. Okay, we love that and we love them.
Peter: Yes. (laughs)
Dylan: They are now also I'll get releases from them for this podcast just to be ...
Peter: Okay, thank you.
Dylan: Just so I'm clear, how do you two know each other offline?
Lauren: Man, so at least 20 years, maybe.
Dylan: Oh, wow.
Lauren: Or so.
Peter: Is that a lot?
Lauren: Yeah!
Peter: Holy cats.
Dylan: Okay, congratulations.
Peter: Yeah, yeah, of course.
Lauren: I was a younger kiddo that was going to this awesome cafe called the Hard Times in Minneapolis and it's a crazy ass place that's open from 6:00 a.m. to 4:00 a.m. every day, and they close down for two hours to like clean. So there's a lot of like homeless philosophers and like chess champions of the world and just like crazy meeting of the minds that happened there. So it was a really fun thing for farm girl, me, and my bestie Chuck to come out there and hang at Hard Times. And that's where I met Peter and a bunch of people.
Peter: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dylan: That's amazing. How recently have you guys seen each other in person?
Lauren: Did I see you at that last art show, Peter? The Valentine's one that Danielle...?
Peter: Yeah.
Lauren: Yeah. So within the last month or two.
Peter: Month!
Dylan: Great. So even still, people who know each other in the physical world, we get into some online moments with each other (Lauren and Peter laugh) on Facebook. Again, I want to be super clear. This is not a shaming podcast. This is not to drag anyone through the mud. This is only to kind of be like weird philosophers that get to step away from our online disagreements and be like, "huh, this is what I was going through." It's a kind of opportunity to step outside of ourselves, if you will. So, Lauren, you posted I think was last Thursday, right?
Lauren: Yeah.
Dylan: You posted a Facebook post, and you were essentially ... Well, I'll set it up but you tell me if I'm wrong and you correct anything that's incorrect. But essentially you were saying, "hey guys, there is stuff to worry about, but we don't have to worry too much," right?
Lauren: Yeah, it was a kind of trying to stop people panicking in reaction to hoarding and people being shitty to clerks and cashiers and things, which is the direction that I was coming with it. And it's funny how much has changed within a week, like that feels two weeks ago already with pandemic reality.
Dylan: Well, it feels like a year ago based on who we were then and what we said then. Yeah, I was like, "guys, I'm not worried." And then now here I am hunkered down in my home with like, supplies forever.
Lauren: And then the post seemed to kind of explode.
Dylan: Yes.
Lauren: People didn't like being told to calm down.
Dylan: Yes. So you were anti-hoarding and you were like, guys, let's just chill. It's going to be okay. Was that the tone of it, it's going to be okay?
Lauren: Not in dismissing that this is serious. I think a bunch of people took it that way. And then a bunch of people took it in a bunch of different ways. And I had to keep clarifying. But no, that's not what I was saying. I'm not saying the old people should just die. No.
Dylan: Right, right, right.
Lauren: Again, calm down (laughs). But yeah, it was an interesting explosion of many, many comments.
Dylan: Yeah. So again, this is last Thursday. We're talking Thursday. What day was it? It was Thursday, March 12th, a totally different time in our lives. We didn't know the people we would become in a week. It's just different. So getting into the head space of where you were then, what made you want to write that? What made you want to say, "Guys, calm down. It's going to be okay." Was there a thing you witnessed that you were like, I want to say something on Facebook?
Lauren: Yeah, the hoarding is definitely one that I found was really kind of ablest, selfish compulsion that was happening with people with means that I think is depriving folks that even are immunocompromised or disabled from getting what they need at stores when they need it. We're seeing a bunch of explosions of like racist behavior towards Chinese people, Asian folks, Asian restaurants.
Dylan: Yeah.
Lauren: I was personally doing a lot of free counseling to a lot of friends around their panic around this. I knew a lot of people that were just spending their entire day already sequestering like now we kind of are, right? The year later, that is a week later. At that point, we weren't but other people were already freaking out and spending their entire day reading a deluge of articles, every mountain of information that they could consume around the coronavirus. From a psychological perspective, I understand that it makes us feel better to kind of panic because it tricks our brain into thinking we're doing something constructive.
Dylan: Totally.
Lauren: But I personally see that as causing undue suffering, which I always try to interrupt as a practice, as a career practice. But then beyond that, I have a different life perspective where I'm always kind of the person that is, people come up with, "oh, my God, this thing is happening!" And I go, "okay, easy. Let's calm down." And I'm usually the one to not dismiss, but a lot of people can take it that way, right? But to say, "let's breathe." "What can you actually do about any of this in this moment?"
Dylan: Yeah.
Lauren: I could ramble on.
Dylan: No, no, no. It's also always nice to hear what was going on behind the scenes of someone writing that. So, Peter, what was your just like gut response when you saw this post?
Peter: What I read, or what I thought I read was that you were saying this is no big deal. This is something that people are blowing way out of proportion, something that is really no worse than a lot of the other things going around. I'm in full agreement that the panicking does no one any good, that it's not constructive and that people who can afford to buy three shopping carts of toilet paper should curb themselves and not fucking do that. (Lauren laughs). I had been really focused on reading about Italy, like I understood from hearing the description of the overwhelm of the Italian medical system, what we're staring down the barrel of, and especially with the person that we have at the top and their regard for science. I was like, "holy fucking shit," you know? "We're in for trouble."
Lauren: Yeah.
Peter: And this is going to be a ride and my mom is 90, so also I've got that kind of buzz, little subtle buzz maybe back beyond my conscious mind even of "wow, this can really take my mom out easily."
Dylan: Yeah.
Peter: With how it's looking and how much it targets or is just expressed more often in a fatal way with older adults, late life adults. So anyway, I kind of came in and was pretty intense with Lauren because it really sounded like "people are just being ridiculous," and "this is hardly worse than any flu going around." And "you people should just stand down from being concerned." That was how I read it. And then Lauren came back with, "well, I wasn't saying that people shouldn't care at all. And I wasn't saying that this wasn't something significant."
Dylan: But like, I just want to say I get where you both are coming from, because I always think it's helpful to return to like what was actually said.
[AD BREAK]
Dylan: I always think it's helpful to return to like what was actually said. So Lauren, you had shared a like statistic.
Lauren: And that was actually from the CDC website that day, but that's how much things are also changing. So then we had a bunch of people arguing, "well, the CDC says this now. Well, the WHO says this now. Well, this website says this. This website says this." There was a link storm happening with everyone coming from their own personal areas of trigger of what happened. Some people were taking it every which way.
Dylan: Totally. Lauren, you just summed it up best is that everyone is just coming from their own areas of trigger, and then we're all meeting on the internet, right? And then it's like, we don't know what areas of trigger each of us are coming from. We just see a post and we feel a certain way about it. I've been on both sides of this. I've been on the poster side. I have been on your side too, Peter. Just a burp came up.
Lauren: I could totally see how anyone would be taking it in the way they did. I tried to clarify it with most people. Some people wanted to continue to go back and forth. Most people I think I resolved it. With Peter, I don't think I even responded to yours because it was so rough. (laughs) But I let the post kind of stay and I made my own posts of like, "I am not saying that this is not of grave concern." But in general I would still stand behind my thoughts at the end about the media drumming everyone up into a frenzy. I still think that is happening in an unhealthy way. And I would also still urge people to try to maintain calm and routine as best they can and whatever amount of collapse (squeaking sounds begin in the background) or crying or freak out they need to do to- my dog is playing with a squeaky toy because I'm talking to people. Sorry.
Dylan: No, this is good! This is going to be great for audio for the real, the raw audio that we're looking for in this time. So that's good.
Lauren: Sorry. (laughs and sighs)
Dylan: Yeah, no, that's good! Truly. I think it's just part of our reality now and I mean that in a genuinely positive way.
Lauren: (laughing) Okay.
Dylan: Well, just to read it, the headline Lauren, you wrote, "While I'm seeing events and schools canceled all around me and less Lyfters," that's Lyft the company, "Less Lyfters, aka, less money for me, the reality of the situation is fucking, FKN, much chiller than the media would have you believe. They're drumming up everyone into a mass hysteria," and then you copy pasted, "80% of the people that contract COVID-19 will either be asymptomatic, show no symptoms at all, or have very mild cold and flu symptoms..." I'm even hesitant to continue reading it, because while I'm sure you got it from the CDC website, it could be outdated information. Certainly as of this recording, and almost definitely upon release of this episode, you know.
Lauren: Exactly. Yeah.
Dylan: We just don't know what's going to happen.
Lauren: Yeah, it did mention that the elders are more affected (squeaking noise intensifies) and that the symptoms are like to the flu, but not that it is the same as the flu.
Dylan: Yeah, totally. I'm hearing the squeaky toy a lot. I don't want to deprive her.
Lauren: I'm taking it away from her now.
Dylan: No, no, no. I don't want to deprive your dog of joy. Is there a way that we can include the dog. (Lauren laughs) And what is her name?
Lauren: Siri.
Dylan: Siri?
Lauren: Yeah, it's S-I-R-I. It's a Norwegian name before it was an Apple but I had to like clarify that to everyone.
Dylan: Okay, so you had it first. No, I'm glad you did. So I just want I ... Siri is probably also experiencing stress. So I just want to make sure that we're not robbing Siri of the joy of a squeaky toy, but you know also podcasts go against that. So let's just all work together, Siri.
Lauren: I've taken it away from her now. She got close enough.
Dylan: Yeah, but you threw in this parenthetical in your post that said, "Aka, less money for me."
Lauren: Yeah.
Dylan: Just to be clear, I am not calling either of you selfish at all. It's just that in these times, we can only really ever be thinking about our own circumstances and how we play into this. So you're bringing up a really legit thing Lauren, which is that like this hysteria is really costing you the crucial money you need, right?
Lauren: Yeah. And that continues now again in the whole year later, that is a week later pandemic reality thing, in that now all the bars and restaurants are shut down in Minnesota. And that's not happening in other areas of the country yet, but I'm glad that our governor did. It is the right thing to have happened. But I'm absolutely scared financially right now.
Peter: Sure.
Dylan: This is a thing we all have to be dealing with, right? It's like, oh, the right decision was made, and you can still feel a feeling about that decision and how it affects you, right?
Lauren: Absolutely.
Dylan: We can hold both of those things as true, I don't know, in the same way. And so Peter and then when you commented on that, you said, let me pull it up right here, you said, "Lauren, you are dangerously dead wrong on this, and someone looking to you as a health professional could..." I mean, Peter, you've given us the title of the episode, (Peter and Lauren laugh) "dangerously dead wrong" is a good title. So that's good. "And someone looking to you as a health professional could be less careful and cause harm because of it." And Peter, I assume you were fired up in response because of what you said, because you're thinking about your mom, right?
Peter: No, what I said about thinking about my mom was that that was a buzz probably at the back of my mind, not even in a conscious place, and only like a smidgen of my thought and my feelings on this.
Dylan: Okay, well, that's good to clarify.
Peter: I'm thinking about everyone who's vulnerable, and about how much dynamite it takes to get the fucking American public to move toward anything reasonable.
Dylan: Yeah.
Peter: And so then when she said, "But the reality is much more chill than what they're telling you," I was like, "NO!" I was like, (singing/screamng) "fuuuuuuuck!" (Dylan and Lauren laugh hard). Now because ... And this was what? This was a week ago, right?
Lauren: Yeah. And again, it feels two weeks ago.
Dylan: Yeah.
Lauren: Yeah, I would not be saying things are chill now.
Peter: This is where we have a fucking sliver of a chance to keep this from being a tsunami or a multi nuclear strike, you know? That was my feeling.
Dylan: No okay, so that's good clarification. So the trigger was not you thinking about your mom, the trigger was this line in Lauren's post where she says, "The reality of it is fckn much chiller than the media would have you believe," and that is what made you be like, absolutely not.
Peter: *explosion sound with mouth*
Dylan: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Peter: Yes.
Dylan: I see. But I mean, Lauren, so you stood by this on Thursday. That lifetime ago that was a week ago. Just to be clear, I know you've said this before on this call, but just want to get a clean take of it. You do not think that the situation is fucking much chillier than the media would have you believe, right?
Lauren: Well, I mean I reviewed the post since we'd be talking about it. It definitely feels like a year ago. You know what I mean? Like I can feel the distance of where I am now from when I posted that. I definitely think it's a serious situation and I was saying that throughout that post even when I was responding to people directly, but it's definitely I had no idea that we would be now into nearing lockdown. My friends are now all preparing for lockdown in major cities. This is moving a lot faster. So I would not say that it is chiller. I would not say that it is chill in any way. No.
Dylan: Yeah. Right. No, I get that and I hear that. But it's also like we're so frustrated and we're so scared and we're facing this totally new reality right now, that the only people that we have to take out our anger on or take out our frustration on are the people we see on social media. And if they post something that you disagree with, or they post something that you think is dangerous, it's of course not as dangerous as governmental inaction. It is not as dangerous as people who are like truly throwing caution to the wind and just like actively harming us by ignoring all rules for quarantine. But we're the only punching bags we have. (Lauren and Peter laugh) So in these times of pandemic, is that fair to say?
Lauren: Sure.
Peter: That's a fan-fucking-tastic phrase.
Dylan: Oh, great.
Peter: It's like the American working class, we're the only punching bags we have.
Lauren: Dude, and that's what I'm talking about too, like when I'm driving around right now, all I'm getting are people that are coming off of work at Target, and Walmart in grocery stores and they're haggard. They are being abused by these people.
Peter: Right.
Lauren: Sorry to take it away from the social media part.
Dylan: No, no, no. No, no, no, this is-
Peter: It is the subject I think.
Dylan: It is so. In fact, we're right on the money.
Lauren: I mean, this is where like the American public, its true colors are kind of showing. And not all of them are good. But something that I wish the news would do would also be to show all the amazing community, like resourcing and support efforts that are happening all over. That would be helpful instead of nonstop panic and graphs.
Dylan: Yeah. Well, I guess on that note, I would love to kind of close out this call with maybe not false hope. But I would love to hear how you guys are coping through this kind of strange period of humanity that we're all alive for right now to witness. How are you coping, Peter? Would love to hear from you first.
Peter: I'm just trying to double down on finding some home routine and really trying to enjoy my home life, like with the cats and doing some cooking and trying to do some horrifically neglected cleaning. I have hoarding disorder. And so getting a little bit of work done on those things. And so just trying to stay calm and actually feeling well enough to want to look around for ways that I can help, like getting somebody's groceries or whatever, and wanting to check in with friends to see if anybody's in lockdown, can I get them anything, that kind of thing. So I think that will help me feel good, help my immune system, and to just feel better doing something that I know is worthwhile.
Dylan: No, I hear that.
Peter: And yeah, just doing laundry, trying to do a little cleaning, hugging the cats, and I'm just about to close out Star Trek Voyager on Netflix.
Dylan: Oh, okay.
Lauren: Oh, Janeway, nice.
Dylan: That is exciting. Moving on to a new show after that, I assume?
Peter: Yes, probably. I'm going to try to take it a little slower again.
Dylan: I mean, who can blame us for binging at this time (Peter laughs), to be totally honest? This is the time to binge.
Lauren: That's absolutely medicine. Yeah.
Dylan: They say this was like the age of like unending content, and maybe it was just to prepare us for this time right now. So it's like maybe at the end of this, we'll have seen every single piece of content and will we be better for it? Who's to say.
Peter: It's probably evolutionary!
Dylan: Yeah! We knew! We were hoarding content, we were creating content for this time. We knew. They're going to study us, the like, aliens who come down to earth and discover that humanity once existed here, they're going to find these content pieces and be like, "Oh, they were smart."
Lauren: I hope that's the result! (laughs)
Dylan: Yeah, that's the result. Lauren, what about you? What are you doing to cope?
Lauren: Well, to go from shows, I just finished The Good Place and kind of don't know what to do with myself. Good God, that was such a good show. But having been, again, in a period of unemployment just before this and was just starting to kind of (laughing) make money for myself again but just barely scraping by still, I am still really financially tenuous. So I'm kind of at a loss right now about exactly what will be happening for that, like the artist community that Peter mentioned at the beginning of this, that he and I both care very much about. All of our friends are gig-based, and they just all lost their income. So I am loving, at least, spreading and supporting and sharing those people trying to do their things. My friend Norm, he's a bartender, so he's teaching people on video how to make certain cocktails right now for some coins.
Dylan: Listen, do it.
Lauren: Right. People are doing music and performances or whatever. I'm loving the way that we are connecting online, in a fun way like that. I'm seeing a lot of watch parties or whatever. I was already Skyping with my parents for the whole time that I was gone. So we're still Skyping.
Dylan: Yeah.
Lauren: My father is an elder as well. He's 82 this year.
Dylan: Oh, wow.
Lauren: So they're not on full lockdown, but they're in New Mexico now. So I think it's kind of a safer place. But I have a scheduled happy hour with friends over video tomorrow, but I am still going out a bit and I don't know if I'm going to be thrown against the coals for saying that, like, I am going to be Lyfting until I am told that I am not allowed to anymore and we're on full lockdown because I need money.
Dylan: Yeah.
Lauren: And I'm helping those people that are still being forced to go to work to get there. There's a lot of the working poor that use Lyft and Uber to get to and from work, which was, I didn't even know that until I started doing this. And then whenever I get licensed, I'll start doing teletherapy for people, if that happens during this time.
Dylan: But this is the complication, right? It's like we're being told, or the people who have to go out to work are being told to not go, but you're like, "but I need money." You're caught in a really, really tough place right now.
Lauren: I mean, I don't feel that as much as the people that work for the big abusive, like warehouses and factories and companies that you're completely screwed. I can at least kind of nuance a little self-making, but I mean, I'm seeing so much shaming online, like just people screaming in all caps about "don't fucking leave your house!" And "how dare you?!" I've seen people leave and go outside and do things and it's still not an option for many people to not do that.
Dylan: Yeah.
Lauren: Yeah, it's tricky times.
Dylan: Yeah. It is tricky times. But listen, we have the phone, which we can use to not just text at each other, we can call each other. Not that this is at all sponsored by any phone company. (Lauren laughs) This is something I've learned through this podcast, a nice little side effect is that I've been like re ... What's the word? I've been re-radicalized to the phone. (Lauren and Peter laugh) So here we are. Well, I have to say this conversation has been truly lovely. Are there any final things you want to say to each other?
Lauren: I love you, Peter.
Peter: I love you too, Lauren! I think we have almost a little bit of a sibling dynamic sometimes.
Lauren: Yeah.
Peter: And when we butt heads, we tend to butt heads a little hard.
Dylan: But wait, this is beautiful. This is the first time that someone on this show has said "I love you" and then someone else said "I love you, too." This is amazing!
Lauren: Aww, yay.
Dylan: We're changing the scope of this show. Yes.
Peter: Nice!!
Dylan: Wow.
Lauren: No, I never have hard feelings. I've liked the times that Peter and I disagree. It usually comes out with one or both of us learning something.
Peter: True story.
Dylan: Okay, well, I love that. I do. I mean, not that we need to put a disgusting ribbon on this, (Peter and Lauren laugh) but what do you feel like ... And if the answer is "no," throw it in my face! Say "I learned nothing!" (Lauren laughs) But what do you feel you might be taking away from this phone call?
Peter: My takeaway, just that... Try to be at least a little reasonably careful in how we're talking with each other. And we share a life, we're all in this together, like it or not. And if our focus has been to taking each other out of the equation, then things get really messy and not better. So Dylan, I love what you're doing with this project, this idea.
Dylan: Thanks.
Peter: And I really feel like we furthered that, even though we were already coming to closer understanding as it was, we still really furthered that agenda of talking through in a respectful way, which is exciting.
Lauren: Yeah.
Dylan: Yeah, well, listen, I love that. Yeah. I would say so too. Lauren, what about you? Again, just want to be clear, the answer could be "I'm taking nothing away from this." (all laugh) "Peter, I still love you."
Lauren: This was a complete waste of my time!! (laughs)
Dylan: God bless. Yeah. And you know what? If it's true, say it and I'll keep it in.
Lauren: No, I mean, what Peter said too, it makes me think more on like a globally discussing way that as much as I don't have faith in this current administration, or much faith in our government or our society, I'm quite cynical. But I have a little dwarf star of optimism in my core and I do hope that this period is going to be teaching us how much we all do actually need to rely on each other, how important not only our general herd immunity, but how much we all actually support each other, that we need each other in the society and that we can. Like, our government in our society has been unnecessarily toxic and acerbic and cruel, not even just online but how we don't have anyone on healthcare (laughs and then sighs)... I mean, I'm really, really hoping that if not a revolution where we eat the rich, that we at least come together in some way better after this. I hope we all learn something from it.
Dylan: Yeah.
Lauren: That's my medium level. I went back to pessimism. (laughs)
Dylan: No, listen, I think we're naturally going to be toggling between the two. I think like to just be pretending that we're just optimistic and if someone listening is just optimistic, bless you. Hold on to that, nurture that. But not all of us are there. So I think it's natural. You're going to toggle, but yeah, maybe you might have to lean on that star, that little star of optimism that you were talking about. Okay, well, selfishly, I just feel like this was such a pleasure that I got to know you guys a little, I got to know about your friendship a little, which is just I feel like I've been granted a lovely little window into you guys and the community you have over there. So thank you for allowing me into that.
Peter: Nice.
Dylan: Thank you for doing this podcast. This episode was thrown together so quickly. And you are all such champs. Lauren, credit to you for just being, you know, you let me know about the story. You reached out to Peter. It's just we produced this in record time all together, you guys.
Lauren: I appreciate it.
Peter: Sweet.
Dylan: Yeah. So stay safe, stay socially distanced. Lauren, I get that you're going to have to keep going to work. I guess you're both going to have to keep working.
Lauren: Yeah.
Peter: Yes.
Dylan: Because money is a reality, and I guess we'll all ... So it's funny, the way I end every call is I say, well, "we'll see each other on the internet." And that's just like kind of this cute folksy way of doing it. But like literally that is how we're going to be seeing each other for the next untold period of time. (all laugh) So we will very much see each other on the internet. And again, thank you so much for doing this.
Lauren: Thank you.
Peter: Absolutely.
Dylan: Well, have a great evening, both of you, and we'll talk soon.
Peter: Thanks, Dylan. See you, Lauren.
Lauren: See you, Peter. Thank you, Dylan.
Peter: Ciao for now.
Dylan: Bye.
[Phone call ends with a hangup sound. Instrumental of "These Dark Times" by Caged Animals begins to play.]
Dylan [VOICEOVER OUTRO]: Conversations with People Who Hate Me has been a production of Night Vale Presents.
Christy Gressman is the Executive Producer. Vincent Cacchione is the Sound Engineer and Mixer, Mark Stoll and Emily Newman are the Associate Producers. The theme song is "These Dark Times" by Caged Animals. The logo was designed by Phillip Blackowl, with a photo by Mindy Tucker. And this podcast was created, hosted and produced by me, Dylan Marron.
Special thanks to Adam Cecil, Christine Ragasa, and Megan Larson.
Please stay safe. Take care of yourself.
And as always, but perhaps especially now, remember, there is a human on the other side of the screen.
[Chorus of ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals plays.]