EPISODE 31: HIGH SCHOOL REUNION
Dylan [VOICEOVER INTRODUCTION]: Hey, and welcome back to Conversations With People Who Hate Me. I'm your host, Dylan Marron.
As you know, I'm interested in figuring out the story behind negative online comments and more importantly, the full three dimensional humans who wrote them. Some of these comments can be very intense. I've spoken to people who have called me a piece of shit, a moron, a talentless hack, and yes, a faggot. I've moderated calls between pairs of strangers who have sent and received some very charged words too like, "You should be burned at the stake," or, "I hope you're eaten alive by a pack of wild dogs."
But as listeners of this show know, I'm also fascinated by the less intense digital interactions that still managed to stick with us. Comments like, "That person is annoying," tweets like, "You're a hypocrite," or even the silent act of being unfriended. These more tame instances of online negativity aren't overtly hateful, but when we receive or experience them, it can feel like hate, especially when it's coming from a stranger.
But today's comment isn't hateful, and today's guest is not a stranger. In fact, I'd now call him a friend. In the fall of my freshman year of high school, months before Myspace came around, a year and a half before the dawn of Facebook, and four years before Twitter asked us to share what we were thinking in 140 characters or less, I came across the very first negative thing to ever be written about me online. In this sacred time, before digital communication changed us forever, kids in my high school would make online quizzes about themselves as a way to test how well their fellow classmates knew them.
And one day I found a quiz made by one of the most undeniably popular and beloved kids in my grade; a guy named Carl. One question on Carl's quiz asked, "Who's the funniest person in our grade?" And there were four options; one, the correct answer, was Carl himself. And I was shocked to learn that another option was me, but next to my name parenthetically it read, "Because he looked funny." And this felt horrible.
I had no idea, of course, that nearly 17 years later I'd be 31 episodes into a podcast that would explore this exact field; that I'd be connecting the authors of such comments to the recipients of them. This all happened 16 months before the term "podcasting" was even invented, by a guy named Ben Hammersley in the article audible revolution, that the guardian would publish in February of 2004. And yes, I had to look that one up.
On the big sociological scale, it was a different time for us as humans and on the small scale it was different for me as an individual human too. I was an insecure kid grappling with body image issues and figuring out how I was going to come out of the closet. I now know that this isn't unique at all, but experiencing it at the time in isolation was unbearable. So to read that the most beloved, charismatic kid in the grade called me funny- looking; it sucked.
Now, Carl and I became friendlier over the years, but never really got to know each other. We never spoke about the quiz and we didn't keep in touch after graduation. So, a year ago, I invited Carl over to my apartment to reconnect.
We ended up having a really lovely chat about who we are today, and who we were 15 years ago, when the comment was first written.
It felt great. So here is Carl.
[Music fades. Dylan’s doorbell rings. Dylan opens the door and welcomes Carl.]
Dylan: Hi!
Carl: Dylan!
Dylan: Oh my God!
Carl: Hug it out.
Dylan: Look at you. How are you?
Carl: Good to see you man.
Dylan: It's so good to see you off the internet. It's truly been since graduation.
Carl: Yeah. Well, good to see you. It's me, the same guy.
Dylan: You look amazing.
Carl: I lost some weight.
Dylan: Oh my God! Carl.
Dylan [VOICEOVER]: After some nice, friendly, catch-up, we settled into the microphones.
Carl: Is it good?
Dylan: Okay, great.
Carl: All right, thank you.
Dylan: So like I said, super conversational. So, hi Carl.
Carl: Hello Dylan.
Dylan: How are ya?
Carl: What's going on?
Dylan: I haven't seen you since graduation.
Carl: Yeah it's a long time. What? 12 years?
Dylan: Yeah, a lot has happened.
Carl: Yeah. A lot. I'm about to be 30.
Dylan: Oh my God.
Carl: Dirty 30.
Dylan: If I, this is wild, but I feel like I remember your birthday.
Carl: You really remember things.
Dylan: Yeah.
Carl: That's a skill.
Dylan: Okay. This is-
Carl: I forgot my birthday sometimes.
Dylan: But that's so funny, I don't know why. Like we... So, we graduated high school in 2006.
Carl: 2006.
Dylan: Well, you just brought it up; I remember things.
Carl: Yes.
Dylan: And I don't know why, but I have vividly remembered this totally insignificant thing. That when I've since brought it up to people, they're like, "That's not a big deal. That's you. You are holding onto that." But I remember that...
Dylan: So we were in ninth grade and this was way pre-social media. Right?
Carl: Right.
Dylan: This is like... Twitter wasn't even like-
Carl: I think we were on Myspace?
Dylan: Myspace wasn't even around yet. This was 2002 so it was AIM. AIM was like the online forum we were used to.
Carl: Like dial up internet?
Dylan: Yeah, exactly. So AIM was our big thing, and I also remember people were posting friend quizzes like, "How well do you know me?" like, "What is my favorite color? Option A, option B, option C, option D."
Dylan: So, I'm going to share my memory of you in high school, which is that you came in just burning with charisma. You were just the coolest person, and everyone thought you were great, but we weren't friends at the beginning of freshman year.
Carl: Right.
Dylan: Because I was not cool. You were the cool, charismatic kid in a time when it is rare to have fully formed charisma, and you had that; and I was super insecure, and so I just thought you were cool, but we didn't speak. And so, I saw on your quiz... And again, this is my obsessive memory coming in, but on your quiz I remember there was a question of, "Who's the funniest person in the grade?" And there were four options. And I was on there, but next to it, it said, "Because he looks funny." So I've clearly never forgotten that. Do you remember that at all?
Carl: Slightly. I'll be lying if I say I remember it fully, but it sounds like something I would do so, yeah.
Dylan: So I reached out to you because-
Carl: Last week.
Dylan: Last week, on a dare, I reached out to you, and I wanted to have you on this podcast, not because it's hateful; and I think it's important to kind of identify that it isn't, and it's very different from other things that I get on the internet. But because that was my first time ever reading something negative about me online. In this kind of divorced space from like I am... It's not like I overheard you saying that. It's like I saw someone had written it and it was posted in this digital-
Carl: I put my name to it.
Dylan: Yeah.
Carl: Yeah.
Dylan: So that's my memory of it. What is your memory of it?
Carl: Because I have no real memory of it, based on-
Dylan: Yeah.
Carl: What you just detailed, I'm going to say maybe, from what I hear, sounds very two-fold. I think that part of all the charisma that you detailed and things like that, one of my main characteristics that people associate to me all the time is my leadership qualities. And one of the main things of that is including everyone. I feel like I've always tried to include everyone, and have a group concept, even from WATS and all those things. I literally brought together a group of 15 to 20 people to believe in one thing, which was as superficial as four letters put together with stars in between them. You know what I mean? You rode that out till the last day.
Dylan: So for the many listening who don't know what WATS is, take us through it.
Carl: We Are The Sh-
Dylan: You're allowed to say that.
Carl: Shit.
Dylan: On the podcast.
Carl: It was just my high school group man. And it was just everything to us. We just aligned with it, and it was like a fraternity. When you go to a private school and you're a young black male, there just aren't too many people that look like you in that school. So it was just a way for us to just familiarize ourselves in a not familiar space.
Dylan: Yeah. That's interesting too. Right? Because I think there's that dynamic of... When I read this, you had all the power.
Carl: I mean 100%. It wasn't even power, it was more so influence. What that showed me was at a young age I had influence, you know what I mean? I had people who walked up to me and said, "Carl, I have no confidence." And now they're throwing up this sign, and they're a part of this group that breeds confidence in the essential words of what it means, "We Are The Shit."
Carl: So if you associate with this group, you are essentially saying that you are the shit, 100%. So someone who's walking around timid, soft-spoken, beta personality; if I take a liking to you all of a sudden, those might not be your traits.
Dylan: What I guess I'm trying to get at here is that when I read that through whatever AIM profile it was posted on, I felt like shit, just because you were the shit. And I think it's fair to say, you were the top dog in our grade.
Carl: Right. Thank you so much. I appreciate that.
Dylan: You were.
Carl: But I always tried to do it in a very humble approach, and that's why this one kind of bothered me a little bit. I really feel like I put you there because there was a positive association to that as well.
Dylan: Really?
Carl: 100% I just feel like there was a... I was still in my psychological development, so I didn't really articulate it in the best way I could have.
Dylan: Huh! I guess you're saying you meant it in a positive way.
Carl: Yes.
Dylan: I guess the only thing is-
Carl: Because I don't feel like... I don't mean to cut you off, but I don't feel like I had troll in me. I don't think I used it in a very negative sense like that. So I feel like, when I put your name in that it was a very, cognitive response; it was a very articulated, what's the word I'm looking for? Like I was a measured-
Dylan [VOICEOVER]: So Carl's mic just cut out there, but he said, "It was a very measured action."
Carl: And because I felt like you were a leader, in your own right.
Dylan: How so? I felt like the opposite-
Carl: I mean 150% you know, everyone has insecurities. So the man that you saw, that had all that confidence, that you thought was just Alpha Dog, had his own insecurities as well. And that was always my insecurities, have always been with women. 150%. So here's this kid who essentially is half my size.
Dylan: Me, you mean.
Carl: Yes, Dylan Marron, half my size. Your voice is high now, so we can only imagine what his voice sounded like 15 years ago, right?
Dylan: It was high.
Carl: It was high. You had more metal in your mouth than teeth. (LAUGHTER) So, all those things, but every single girl in our grade, above our grade, the 11th grade, the 12th grade, loved this kid. Loved this kid, Dylan. And I don't even think I knew at ninth grade that you were gay. To be completely honest with you. Or if you even did.
Dylan: I did. And I just think you... So I don't think your comment hurt me because it felt like you were making fun of me for being gay at all. It just hurt me because I had insecurities too. And I think that's what I'm most interested in talking about. Who were you in ninth grade? What were some of those insecurities?
Carl: In ninth grade I was a kid who always was told that... Just in the context of girls?
Dylan: Just yeah. Or just anything because you just said I had my own insecurities.
Carl: In ninth grade, who I was as a person... I was just determined to succeed. I've always been doubted, so I kind of knew this position I was in and I just 100% just wanted to go into that situation and dominate it. I feel like my alpha personality was already created. My competitiveness was already created from my scholarship program in the sixth grade. So, the knowing-ness to achieve, and just having people around you that are kind of going after the same thing that you want; you can't have two dogs in a cage with one bowl of food. So that was kind of my mentality going into ninth grade, go into that shit and fuck it up. That means get A's, make friends, leave a legacy, whatever it is. And that's what you kind of saw manifesting itself. And I was 15 so I made mistakes,
Dylan: I think we all did.
Carl: Right. And, "You look funny," may have been one, but, I do feel like it was said with a purpose.
Dylan: You identified the fact that the girls loved me. Right? But how did that feel?
Carl: Understatement.
Dylan: Well, how did that feel?
Carl: I mean, it's crushing to a person like me. You know what I'm saying? You look in the mirror every day you're like, "Oh, I'm so handsome, I'm the shit, I'm this, this, and this." But every girl is hanging out with Dylan, who's walking around with his head down.
Dylan: That's so funny, because just so you know, not that you're... From the outside, I see that.
Carl: Yeah.
Dylan: But all I wanted was guy friends.
Carl: That's crazy.
Dylan: And I didn't have any. And also there was just... We need to say it, there were no out gay kids-
Carl: No.
Dylan: In the school.
Carl: And the girls aligned with you. They sympathized with you, but it was tough. You know what I'm saying? Just from my perspective. But I always respected you as a leader.
Dylan: That's so-
Carl: 100%.
Dylan: Funny.
Carl: You just always rode your own ship. I like people like that. I just like people that march to the beat of their own drum.
Dylan: Right. You were talking about insecurities, and I want to share with you my insecurities in ninth grade. But, would you mind articulating what your insecurities were?
Carl: Yeah, 100%.
[BREAK]
Dylan: Would you mind articulating what your insecurities were?
Carl: Yeah, 100%. I was always a big kid. I was always probably... I think I went in, if I remember, my high school physical was like 275 dude. Like one time. I was just always battling with weight and I never really was subconscious about weight, but other people made me, you know what I'm saying? I was always a confident kid. I always preached all types of motivational things to myself; I always knew that I was in charge of my mental health. But back to the... Women always kind of made me feel like it was a problem. Because I always prided myself being an intellectual person, so I always wrote the letters, I always saved up my two pennies, took them to the movies. But you know, the older guy with the abs and the car is sealing the deal, taking the girl from me, riding out in the night and then she's crying to me a week later, and I'm like, "I'm all set." So that story was kind of just happening over and over again, and I just realized that there was a physical component that I just didn't have. I just felt marginalized in that department. So I always admired someone like you could just connect to them in your own way, and didn't really care for what other people thought about you. And I just always thought that was awesome.
Dylan: I just want to tell you, I cared so much what people thought about me. I was so insecure.
Carl: It just didn't seem that way, because you just had an attitude and you were just kind of defiant.
Dylan: For those at home, Carl just did an action that... I would like to be who I was.
Dylan: I just want to be transparent about where I was coming from, and the reason that comment hit hard for me, about looking funny. And now I understand that we were kind of at opposite ends of the spectrum on this.
Carl: Exactly.
Dylan: I was eating disordered then, and I was like-
Carl: Were you a 'chubby kid trying to get into a skinny frame' type of case?
Dylan: I was already in seventh grade, I was just normal seventh grade kid chubby.
Carl: Yeah.
Dylan: But my parents were also going through a divorce at the time, and so I threw myself into this very unhealthy calorie-counting over-exercising phase. Clearly this is not said to make you feel bad, this is just like, I want you to know who I was too-
Carl: What you were going through.
Dylan: Yeah. I was so eating disordered, I was counting calories, I was obsessed with losing weight, just so that I could kind of feel control. Do you know what I mean? I hated myself in ninth grade. Because, I wasn't out, I never thought I could come out. I didn't-
Carl: You had known in ninth grade you were gay, but you-
Dylan: Oh yeah. I knew in ninth grade I was gay. And so, with hearing your perspective that I had a lot of girlfriends-
Carl: All of them.
Dylan: Yeah, but it's funny, because I was just like-
Carl: You're just gay.
Dylan: Yeah, I'm like, "I'm gay, and you like me because I am not putting anything sexual out there."
Dylan: And what I really wish is that I could connect with a guy, because I had no guy friends at the time. I would have loved to have been friends with someone like you. Just friends.
Carl: No, that makes sense. Because-
Dylan: I was intimidated by you, because I didn't have the trappings of like "normal."
Carl: Right.
Dylan: You mentioned this too when you were talking about WATS, but... And only as much as you want to talk about it, but you're also talking about being black, and this white private school. How did that feel?
Carl: Man, I'll say this, I enjoyed every single day of it. I don't think I would be as sharp of a human being as I am today, in this climate, if I didn't go through that warfare. Mental warfare. I mean, it's a completely safe space. Don't take the word for literal value, but you just always got to be on your toes, man. You don't know if someone twice, as old enough to be your mom or dad, is trying to emasculate you right in front of you. You know what I mean? Trying to undermine your whole, everything. Everything about you. Or, if they're trying to give you a benefit that you never will ever, ever come across ever in your life. You have to literally decipher every single day, whether someone's trying to destroy you, or take you to a level that you'll never get on your own.
Dylan: What was that warfare like? Or--Or--
Carl: I mean, it's tough. I mean, it's like, you got to basically decipher someone's genuineness. You know what I mean? If I went to high school in my neighborhood, no one's genuine.
Dylan: Yeah. How so?
Carl: You just don't trust anybody. That's just how we... So when you go into a place like a private school... very disarming and it's just as much there.
Dylan: Carl's Mike just cut out again, but what he said was, "And when you go to a place like the private school we went to, it's very disarming and just as much threat."
Dylan: I mean, that's sort of-
Carl: It's 100% dishonor. You come in, and you're like, "Ugh!"
Dylan: Yeah.
Carl: And it's just not at all.
Dylan: That must've shaped all of who... So much of who you were in high school.
Carl: Man. That's why I'm pursuing a psychological major, to master what I told you right now. Everything is mental play for me. For me at least, because I assume that leadership position. You have to understand if I just went to that high school, and just lied in the weeds, and kind of just kept my peace and stayed quiet, I wouldn't be in that situation. But the fact that I was who I was, everything that came with it, I just always had to make sure I was prepared. I always had to make sure that someone else wasn't smarter than me, someone didn't make a better decision than me in an interpersonal situation. Things like that.
Dylan: I wish I had gone up to you and said something about it, because then we could have had this conversation, seven, what? 15 years ago?
Carl: In hindsight I also wish I just changed the words a little more, because from what it sounds like, it doesn't seem like a... It seems like what I detailed was true. So I just wished that I maybe tweaked the word here or there. It probably would have led to a whole friendship where, this wouldn't be the first time we were speaking again.
Dylan: I feel like I wished I... (LAUGHTER) You were and are so cool.
Carl: I just tried to chill with everyone. And it was funny too, because as I started getting older and older, I just kind of stopped chilling with people more and more or less, and I kind of just became more of an introvert as I graduated because I just felt like people were sucking my energy. Because I had came in with that wave of charisma that you mentioned in ninth grade, by the time I was in 12th grade I was just dragging my feet.
Dylan: Why?
Carl: That's just human nature man.
Dylan: And you felt like depleted.
Carl: I mean it's just what it is. "To whom as much is given, much is required." Or whatever the saying goes. So I might've, I might've talked on that.
Carl: Exactly. If you have a presence like that, there's days where I'll be completely flat thinking about my dad, or my mom, or some problems I have, completely fucking me up. And I walk in, and then people are looking at me to dance.
Dylan: Yeah (CARL LAUGHTER)I totally got that.
Carl: I'm just like, what? It's like, you can't have a bad day. And you live with that pressure. If that's your only thing, you don't got no girls, everybody just looking at you to be the leader, then you got to do that shit every fucking day.
Dylan: Yeah.
Carl: And that shit gets kind of corny after a while. Because you don't come and make me happy, you don't dance for me.
Dylan: Yeah.
Carl: So then I started taking a reciprocal approach to everything.
Dylan: Yeah.
Carl: And that's completely changed my whole ideology, or framework of how I go about things in the second half of my life.
Dylan: Yeah. We haven't spoken since graduation, but you have a daughter now.
Carl: She's everything.
Dylan: Tell me about her.
Carl: She's beautiful. She's my twin. She's my angel. She's everything. I love you Madison, if you're listening. Well you're not-
Dylan: I just imagine your baby being like, "Podcasts are my show." You know?
Carl: She's great. I'll tell you, she probably starts dancing-
Dylan: She's a very advanced baby if she's listening to podcasts.
Carl: That's the best thing about her. She's my pride and joy. Honestly, I've just been through a lot that I don't really need to detail here. I feel like I already kind of got a little more into it than I wanted to, but, she's just like my reward, I guess. I feel like because of all the things that I've been through, and have not... They haven't been traumatic. But the things that I've been through, I just feel like when I look at my daughter, she's my reward for sticking to my game plan. I feel like that's my, that's God's blessing.
Dylan: Yeah. This is a huge question, but-
Carl: Because she's my spitting image, and she even has the same cognitive functions as me.
Dylan: Yeah. That's so weird to see this, like, being that is you.
Carl: Yep. It's crazy.
Dylan: How do you feel you've changed, evolved since ninth grade?
Carl: (EXHALE) First answer, way more aggressive.
Dylan: More aggressive.
Carl: Disgustingly more aggressive.
Dylan: Yeah.
Carl: I feel like in ninth grade, I let people dictate things for me.
Dylan: Yeah.
Carl: And now I dictate things to people. Said very respectful, it's just something that I pride myself in now. It takes a certain kind of man to say something, and people actually listen to it, and do it. That means you have to be the... I mean, I'm not doing it because I'm hitting people. I'm a father now, I have to be authoritative. I'm a protector.
Dylan: Yeah.
Carl: I never really embodied that role. I've never really been in love like that to really take... I've never been in love to the point where my girlfriend was like my soul, or anything like that. So I would say now in everything that I got going on with my life, and the changes that I've made to what I do every day, who I see every day, who gets my time, who gets my energy, has completely shifted. I feel like when I was 15, I gave myself to everyone and got nothing back. And I feel like now I give myself to no one, and I get everything.
Dylan: That's a-
Carl: I think that's a very-
Dylan: Precarious position to be in.
Carl: Yes. I feel like if everyone took that stance, we would all be self preserving ourselves.
Dylan: Yeah. Do you regret writing what you wrote?
Carl: Yes. Simply because I did not... It was a mistake. If my true intentions were to just include you and show you respect, then me saying that you look funny was a mistake.
Dylan: And yeah, that's okay. I have to say I'm grateful that you wrote it, because it's great to connect after something-
Carl: That is not regretful, the fact that we actually spoke on it.
Dylan: This also is kind of what I've fantasized about as a kid when I was like, "What if one day, I get to be friends with the cool people."
Carl: Bro, at the end of the day, conversation can always be had. I'm 30; I plan on being here for a long time.
[The drumbeat from ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals kicks in.]
Dylan [VOICEOVER CLOSING CREDITS]: And that wraps up season three of Conversations With People Who Hate Me. Thank you so much for listening. I'm going to take a few months off from releasing episodes so I can work on my book, which is going to cover how and why I make this podcast, along with some ideas for the future of internet communication. It's called snowflake and no, I unfortunately don't have a pre-order link or release date just yet. Don't worry though; I will be back with brand new episodes in the fall.
In the meantime, tell your friends about this podcast, tell your enemies about this podcast, and if you're feeling up for it and only if it feels safe, maybe try having a difficult conversation of your own.
If you can't wait until the fall, I have good news! Because on April 10th I am doing a live show in New York city where two strangers who clashed online, will meet IRL onstage for the very first time. I'm not going to share too many details on the backstory before then, but trust me, it's going to be good. I hope to see you there.
Also, if you'd like to be a guest on this show, please visit www.conversationswithpeoplewhohateme.com for more information.
Conversations With People Who Hate Me is a production of Night Vale Presents. Vincent Cacchione is the sound engineer and mixer. Christy Gressman is the executive producer. The theme song is “These Dark Times” by Caged Animals. The brand new logo was designed by Philip Blackowl with a photo by Mindy Tucker, and this podcast was created, produced, and hosted by me, Dylan Marron.
Special thanks to Adam Cecil and our publicist, Megan Larson.
And as always, remember there's a human on the other side of the screen.
[Chorus of ‘These Darks Times’ by Caged Animals plays.]