EPISODE 30: EASY TARGET
Dylan: When you first wrote this, do you remember why you wrote it to me?
Brian: I guess I just felt at the time that you were an easy target.
[Instrumental of ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals begins to play.]
Dylan [VOICEOVER INTRODUCTION]: Hey, and welcome back to Conversations With People Who Hate Me, the show where I take negative online comments and use them as the starting point for offline conversations.
I'm your host, Dylan Marron, and today I'm talking to Brian who two and a half years ago wrote me a message that said, "Were you born a bitch or did you just learn to be one over time?" He followed this up with, "You're such a faggot." But, the kind of hilarious part about this message is that his finger must have slipped because then he sent me the thumbs up emoji, which creates this really funny juxtaposition to the opening of his note.
For context, this message from Brian was one of the very first hate messages I received through my public Facebook page as my videos began to gain in popularity, and I was scared and I was new to this, so in a moment of reflexive self protection, I just blocked him.
Then last year I gave a TED talk where I discussed this podcast, and in doing so I provided some background to explain why I even created this show in the first place. So I displayed some screenshots of negative comments I had received, of course with the author's profile pictures and their last names blacked out, and one of these messages was Brian's.
Brian then saw a video of the Ted talk and was shocked to see his own message up there. He wrote me a sweet and sincere apology for his original message, and I asked him to be on this show. He said yes.
Now, two quick audio notes about this phone call. One, Brian is outside, so you're going to hear some wind disruption on his end. And then two, I give all of my guests the opportunity to determine their own level of anonymity, and Brian has opted to have his voice distorted. So when you're like, "Hey, that doesn't sound at all like a normal human voice." That's why. All right, let's get to it. Here is Brian.
[Phone rings. Music fades. Guest picks up.]
Brian: Hello.
Dylan: Hey, is this Brian?
Brian: Yeah.
Dylan: Hey, how are you?
Brian: Good. How's the quality? I don't know.
Dylan: This is good. Are you speaking to me on a headset?
Brian: Yeah. I am.
Dylan: Okay, that's fine.
Brian: The thing is there's some wind.
Dylan: Okay.
Brian: I don't know if you can hear it.
Dylan: I can hear it. If the wind gets bad, I'll let you know.
Brian: Yeah.
Dylan: I know this is a wild thing. We're talking on the phone, but I'm looking forward to this. I'm glad we are. Let's start with questions that have nothing to do with why we're on the phone. I would just love to know how is your day going so far?
Brian: It's pretty good, I guess. I'm just out and about walking. It's kind of cold, but I don't mind.
Dylan: Good. Good, good.
Brian: How about you?
Dylan: I'm good. I'm good. I had a lot of coffee this morning, so I felt a little jittery. What else? Really boring stuff. I'm looking at laundry that I haven't folded yet, so I'm giving you-
Brian: Yeah, no, same thing with me.
Dylan: Good. Good, good. Okay, so that's wonderful. I don't know, I'm excited to talk to you.
Brian: Okay.
Dylan: Let's start here. Before we kind of get into it, I want to just hear about you in only as many details as you'd like to share with me, as you'd like to share on this recorded phone call. But yeah. So tell me about you. Tell me about Brian, the big stuff, the mundane stuff. Anything.
Brian: Yeah. Our little harassment-ship. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I don't know. I just keep thinking about that, but.
Dylan: About what?
Brian: Well, because you blocked me, it was on Facebook, and I forgot about it for the longest time and then there was a TedTalk that you did, and I was actually featured. I was actually one of the comments that you showed, and I didn't see that video until much later on. And that's when I was like, "Oh my God. I completely forgot about that."
Dylan: Yeah, that's interesting. It's also interesting because I truly, the question I asked was just that I wanted to get to know you and who you are and you jumped to the comment. No, no, no. That's perfect. And that's interesting. And we'll get-
Brian: I tend to do that a lot.
Dylan: No-
Brian: But basically high school was pretty bad for me. But things are kind of starting to turn around for college, so that's good.
Dylan: How was high school hard?
Brian: Well, the thing is that there was some family drama that happened, I had depression for my freshman and sophomore year. And I was bullied, but it wasn't like how you see in movies.
Dylan: Sorry, say that again. I just lost you. The wind was in the way, but you said you were bullied?
Brian: Yeah. Yeah. I was, but it wasn't like high school films where someone actually fights somebody else, it's more that people make comments about people.
Dylan: Yeah.
Brian: See, one of the things was that people were calling me an incel.
Dylan: To clarify for people who might not know, what is an incel. What did they mean by calling you that?
Brian: It's kind of like involuntary celibate. That's the actual definition. So, people thought I was a dangerous person because I liked listening to a lot of metal music. And I wouldn't say that I was obsessed with guns, I would go hunting.
Dylan: Sorry, you said you'd go hunting?
Brian: Yes. And people translated that to an obsession with guns, and that wasn't the case. It kind of made me feel bad, you know? Because I felt like people didn't want to be my friend, simply because of how I dressed or whatever. Stuff like that. And this was kind of the irony, the thing is that I am LGBT.
Dylan: Oh, yeah.
Brian: That's the thing. And I feel like a lot of guys in my high school would use the word ... I mean, the "F" word. I guess. I don't want to insult you.
Dylan: If you're comfortable ... no, I don't feel insulted. I'm comfortable saying the "F" word here if you are.
Brian: Oh, okay. That's fine.
Dylan: But so you were called a faggot?
Brian: I mean, I didn't come out to my male peers. It was that people would use it but in the context like, "You're a wimp." Stuff like that. Emasculated by it. Obviously it has that other offense.
Dylan: Yeah, yeah.
Brian: Yeah.
Dylan: And also you said something super interesting, and I've said the same thing almost verbatim, but it's like, "I was bullied in high school, but it wasn't bullying like it looked like in movies." But that's still bullying. Do you know what I mean?
Brian: I get it is, yeah. I understand.
Dylan: What we experience still sucks. It sucks and sucked. But yeah, we weren't shoved into lockers, but I feel like so many of us who have those same experiences as you and I have, there is this kind of sense like, "Oh, well, what am I complaining about? I didn't have the worst kind of bullying."
Brian: Yeah. It's that comparative suffering, I guess. That people say, "Well you didn't have bullying or abuse as bad as this, so."
Dylan: Yeah, exactly.
Brian: They kind of disregard it.
Dylan: Exactly. So you brought it up a little, so we can segue into it. But about two and a half years ago, nearly three, you wrote me a message. And it seems like this message was written using very similar language to the kind of language that was used against you. Right?
Brian: Kind of. I work in construction--
Dylan: In construction?
Brian: Yeah, yeah. And there was an older guy and he'd always pick on me. And I don't know, he would say stuff like, "Faggot." Stuff like that. He'd also call me a virgin, basically. And so it kind of made me mad, but I tried my best to disregard it. But that wasn't my breaking point. It was a part of it, but I guess my real breaking point was my relationship with my parents at some point. Yeah.
Dylan: I'm sorry.
Brian: Well, thing is, when I wrote that message, it's actually from the film, "Full Metal Jacket".
Dylan: Oh really?
Brian: Well, okay. It's not the exact same words, but it's where this drill Sergeant character, he says, "Were you born ..." I guess he says, "A worthless piece of shit, or did you just have to work on it?" And I guess I was trying to get that same mentality, I guess. "Were you born a bitch or." I forgot. "Or did you have to work on it?" I guess?
Dylan: Yeah, well I think the full text of the message was "Were you born a bitch or did you just learn to be one over time?" And then right after that you said, "You're such a faggot" and then you sent me, and I don't know if this is a mistake or not, but you sent me the thumbs up.
Brian: It was.
Dylan: (LAUGHTER) It was a mistake? You sent me the thumbs up emoji.
Brian: It was a mistake, yeah.
Dylan: Okay. Amazing. Let's go back to when you wrote it and I'll tell you about what it felt like to receive it. So when you first wrote this, do you remember why you wrote it to me?
Brian: I think it was a number of reasons. I think one of the things that kind of prompted, I guess you could say, was they disabled your likes and dislikes for the-
Dylan: YouTube videos.
Brian: I guess I just felt at the time that you were kind of an easy target. I don't know. I'm telling you that the person who I was back then and now, I'm not the same person and ...
Dylan: Yeah. I mean I also hear that in the fact that we're having a lovely conversation and it's very different from the comment you sent me.
Brian: Yeah. I guess at the time I also had this ... I guess I would say this sort of disdain towards Muslims, and the thing is that Muslim people I was bullied by, were actually liberal. And I guess they kind of had this sense of superiority.
Dylan: Meaning the people you were being bullied by in school?
Brian: Yeah. See, the thing is, the people that would refer to me like an incel, they were the ones who would kind of promote this idea that I'm a dangerous person.
Dylan: So basically what you're saying is that people labeled you as this thing that was to be feared and this was all happening in the backdrop of family problems?
Brian: Well, my freaking family members would do the same thing.
Dylan: Really?
Brian: Yeah. Some of them were bullies. I'll be honest, and I would get so mad. You can't just label people just because your assumption of them. And that's kind of how it was in high school. It was because I was fat I. I guess I kind of still am, so I guess that's another thing that I was kind of bullied for.
Dylan: Is size.
Brian: Yeah.
Dylan: What I have a ton of empathy for, for your story is just this idea that it just felt like you were not getting support from any side. Do you know what I mean?
Brian: Yeah.
Dylan: And that's unfair to you. And it seems like people weren't getting to know you and it seems like falsely labeling you a dangerous person, right?
Brian: Yeah. And some of the people who did that, they were LGBT as well.
Dylan: Yeah. So then there was the association that if you're labeling me this thing, well then I have distaste for the people who ...
Brian: Were associated with it.
Dylan: Exactly. So, I think we do this natural thing, which if we feel ostracized by a group of people, we then develop certain feelings about that group of people. Right? That's pretty natural human psychology, wouldn't you say?
Brian: Yeah, I understand. That's kind of how I was senior year. All those mean people they kind of left high school, so.
Dylan: And so was senior year better for you?
Brian: I wouldn't say it ... That's where I had more family issues, as apposed to in school.
Dylan: Right.
Brian: And some of my friends, I tried to reach out to them and they didn't care. That's the thing. They called me dramatic, they called me ... they literally said, "I don't care about your problems."
Dylan: Did you have a support system at all? Were there people who were like, "I get you, and I feel you, and you're going through something hard and I'm so sorry this is happening to you."
Brian: At the time, not really. But some other friends, they found out and were supportive, so.
Dylan: Sorry, say that again. There was wind, you said some other friends.
Brian: Yeah, some other friends, they were supportive, and I still have some problems but it's not as big as around that time, thankfully.
Dylan: Well, I'm just trying to paint a full picture of when you wrote this comment, so because you were bullied by them, because you didn't feel that you had a support system and you associated bullying and ostracism ... what's the word? Ostracism?
Brian: Ostracization, yeah.
Dylan: The people who were being mean to you, ostracizing you, you associated them with liberals and you then saw me, this person come across your Facebook feed making satirical videos from a very liberal, very left leaning perspective, and please do correct me if I'm wrong, but then you kind of took the anger that you had at the people who were excluding you and hurting you and you turned that to me, who was at the time, one of the poster people for it.
Brian: It did seem that way. Of course, I honestly didn't know you that well. So I can't say how you were or how you are, but I guess in your earlier videos, you kind of came off as smug. I honestly don't really remember which ones prompted my response.
Dylan: Yeah.
Brian: I don't even think it was because of your videos themselves, but I guess I just felt that you were-
Dylan: But just me and my essence.
Brian: Yeah, I guess I just felt that you were an easy target. I don't want to put it that way, but it wasn't because your views, it happened two years ago, I'm really trying to remember what prompted the response.
Dylan: No, I think that's a sufficient answer. And I appreciate the introspection. I was an easy target and it wasn't necessarily my views. It was I don't think you loved how I presented my views. If that's fair to say.
Brian: I guess. 2016 was a very divided year. There was a lot of hate. There were so many people that they presented their views, they just wanted to get their views out. But they would censor their (INAUDIBLE). Now, the thing is with me was that I wasn't necessarily a critic, I was being a bullying, that's the thing.
Dylan: You said you were being a bully?
Brian: Yeah. And I understand why you would block me, because you did, and the time I felt like, "Wow, okay, I don't care." How did you feel reading that comment?
[BREAK]
Brian: How did you feel reading that comment?
Dylan: Thanks for asking. I'll be like so honest with you. This was the very first negative direct message that I had ever received. Did you know that?
Brian: No. (LAUGHTER)
Dylan: Yeah, or I think at the very ... if we want to be beholden to facts as I believe we should be, I think we can say that it was at least one of the first that I had received. And I remember, I just want to be honest. I was so scared.
Brian: Yeah, yeah. Just be honest.
Dylan: Yeah. I was so scared. I was like--Not because of you and who you were, because I had no idea who you were. You know? You were just a name that came into my inbox and said, "You're such a faggot." I of course didn't know that you yourself were of the LGBT community. I didn't know the full three dimensional version of you that is the fact that you are ... what you were going through at the time, and this is how we all experienced the internet. We don't have the ability to get to know the nuances of that person, what that person is going through. We just make self-protective decisions.
Brian: Yeah. And I think one of the problems, especially on Twitter, there's a lot of insulting, and I feel like educating people instead of just insulting them, I feel like that's a better approach. On the internet, not just Twitter, but almost everywhere, it's either bullying or just name-calling. In my opinion it's a really bad way of approaching someone who disagrees with you.
Dylan: Did you send a lot of messages like that at the time?
Brian: The thing is I didn't say anything like that to other people, I would debate people and then sometimes I would get into that kind of nasty behavior, but it wasn't that often.
Dylan: So it seems like I was maybe a rare case, like sending a cold message to someone?
Brian: Yeah. I try to remember because some of my accounts were actually ... Some I deleted them, some I got blocked. So I would have troll accounts.
Dylan: Okay. So, that was the intention. It's so funny. I used to use this word, but I don't call people who write negative things to me trolls anymore. Because the whole point of this podcast is to fully humanize people and get to know people and three-dimensional people and allow them to express themselves on their own terms. But that's interesting that you self identified as having troll accounts, right?
Brian: I mean that's kind of how it was. And I guess I could see why the term troll, while you wouldn't want to use the term as well. But yeah, that's kind of how it was at the time.
Dylan: Yeah. So you were ... would you have called it harassment? Would you have been setting out to harass people or that wasn't the goal?
Brian: No, no. See the thing is, if you actually responded, I would deny it. At the time I would say that, "It's just a joke." Or that I got hacked.
Dylan: So if I had answered your question earnestly and I had been like, "Actually I was born a bitch. Thank you so much for asking me." Maybe you would have responded, maybe you would have not. What if I responded and I was like, "Hey Brian, this really hurt me, and this really scared me, and this made me feel very alone and isolated." What would you have said?
Brian: The thing is that back then I wasn't just trying to hurt people, I guess I was trying to get my point across but in a bad way. I mean really just name-calling. But I didn't think that you cared about criticism, because I felt that since you disabled your likes and dislikes ... I can't remember if you disabled your comments, I don't remember that, but I thought that you didn't care about criticism. At the time-
Dylan: So I just want to say, it's interesting that you say that and it's not that I didn't care about criticism, but there is a difference between criticism and calling me a faggot. Do you know what I mean? Because again, I want to remind you that I didn't have the context to know who you are. On this call, what is happening because you very kindly and generously shared your story with me and gave me context that allows me to build empathy for you. You know what I mean? And now I see you, Brian, as a three dimensional human, and I hope maybe you see me as a three dimensional human too. Also, that was at a time when I was working for a company and so the company was making decisions about disabling comments or likes and dislikes and I believe that they were restored after that. But it's not so much that I didn't like criticism, it's that when it all comes in in huge waves like that,
Brian: Oh yeah
Dylan: what it feels like is hate. And so that becomes so painful and then it just feels like you're getting this onslaught. Do you know what I mean?
Brian: Yeah, yeah.
Dylan: It would be like calling your high school bullies or the people who were mean to you in high school. It would be like saying, "Well, they're just criticizing you." I think it's fair to say that people were being very mean and very unfair to you and they were being really hurtful. Do you know what I mean? So you find ways to self-protect.
Brian: Yeah
Dylan: And I think that's a natural human thing. And so the way I self protected was by blocking you because I was just scared.
Brian: I know.
Dylan: We're both human beings. Right? So you also had a way to self-protect when you were being hurt by people.
Brian: Yeah, I know. Keep in mind that when I said that you didn't care about criticism, I don't mean it now, that I think it. I meant at the time that's what I believed.
Dylan: Oh no, totally, totally. And I was just telling you at the time I did care about criticism but there was and is a difference in my mind of criticism and hate. You know what I mean?
Brian: Yeah, yeah. That was harassment. I wouldn't say we do things that we don't mean, but the thing is that we do things and then sometimes we don't consider how other people feel about it. And sometimes we believe that what we're doing, it's not that bad. I guess that was my mindset at the time.
Dylan: So you've done a great job of articulating who you were then, and I told you how I felt about receiving that message then and you told me why you wrote it. And I'm telling you what it felt like to receive it. But then flash forward to a few months ago, because you're sending this to me now from a different account. This is an unblocked account. You wrote, "Hey Dylan, my name is Brian, AKA the guy who asked you, 'Were you born a bitch or did you just learn to be one over time? You're such a faggot.' I guess I figured since you kind of had a bit of a sarcastic attitude in your early unboxing videos, that I should troll you. However, I did not consider the ramifications of my actions because I felt using the word faggot was okay because I am bisexual. Anyway, I'm not trying to excuse my actions but I am truly sorry. I hope to one day discuss this with you." And incidentally, here we are. You manifested it into the universe and here we are discussing it. And then you wrote, "In all honesty, I did not believe that you viewed the message from my previous account because you blocked me and I felt you didn't care. Even if I disagree with you on some issues, my views changed over time, calling you the same homophobic slur used to repress many LGBTQ people was a low point. While I could simply say that I was hacked and move on, that would be a lie on my behalf. I am sorry for the numerous death threats or slurs you have gotten. I can not imagine how angry I would be if I received the same amount of hate. I also commend you because you easily could have doxed me, but decided that wasn't the best course of action." And what you mean by that I guess is that I blocked out your last name and I blocked out your picture, right?
Brian: Yeah, yeah.
Dylan: And then you close the note by saying, "I hope one day we can resolve our differences if you see this message." So I guess what I'm curious about is there seem to be miles and miles and miles between the first message you sent me, and this really sweet and wonderful message. So I guess what I'm curious about is what led to this big transformation between when you sent me that first message and when you sent me this really lovely message a few months ago?
Brian: I guess I regretted it. Like again, like how I said before, sometimes we say things, and then we regret them. That's exactly what happened. When I was actually watching your TedTalk, that's kind of what prompted me.
Dylan: Oh really? And how did you come across my TedTalk?
Brian: I don't know. I think it was recommended.
Dylan: So I mean that's wild. And for people who have not yet watched my TedTalk in it I just quickly set up the fact that I've gotten a lot of online hate. And one of the examples of hate that I show is your message. Of course, I blocked out your last name and I blocked out your picture because of course my goal in sharing it was not to humiliate you, but just to show people these are the kinds of messages I received. So you're watching this TedTalk that just randomly comes up and is recommended to you and then you see a message you sent, right?
Brian: Yes. For the longest time is that I forgot about it. I just thought, "Okay, you've blocked me, that's the end of it. I don't remember my mindset about sending the message, but I remember sending it, and that's where I guess I was taken away by it. I was kind of shocked that I would say something like that. And it barely came back to me that I said something like that.
Dylan: But even though you didn't see the picture and you didn't see the last name, you knew that was your message. Right?
Brian: Yeah. Yeah. The thing is that I saw the picture and I kind of recognized it right there.
Dylan: You mean the picture of the message is what you mean?
Brian: Yeah. Yeah. I kind of recognized it a bit, and then I went back and yeah, it was me. Man, I guess things have gotten a bit better than in high school. It's also when you started doing the podcast as well, you don't see people just as the characters they are on the internet, you see people as people. And so for me that's kind of what prompted that change.
Dylan: Interesting. I do want to say Brian, I can't tell you how much I appreciate you writing to me. And how much I appreciate you writing me that really sweet note. And I think it takes a very strong person to be able to own up to something that they did and apologize for it. And this conversation feels so wonderful and great to me and I like getting to know you. You seem like a really sweet person and ... I don't know, I hope your takeaway from this call is not that you fucked up and did something bad. I hope you know that the way I see it is that you were a person going through a lot of shit, and you did not have a support system and you saw someone who you said in your words, was an easy target and you took it out on them. Of course, I was a person who received that message, so I felt a certain way about it. But there is this cool ability to then reconnect. And I feel like we're reconnected now and now you have completely wiped clean, whatever my perceptions were of the author of that message two and a half years ago.
Brian: Yeah. What I thought of you back then, all that negative stuff, it's not who you are because I only saw the part that I perceived as bad, I guess. But when you-
Dylan: Well, I mean to be clear, I am a faggot. That is a factually true statement.
Brian: All right, all right.
Dylan: And I mean that in a positive and loving way. I am a faggot and this is who I am. But yes, I get what you're saying.
Brian: Yeah, but at the same time you don't have to call someone that.
Dylan: I get it. I get it. I was only joking.
Brian: Yeah, I know.
Dylan: Yeah, but I guess in closing ... well I just want to ask, how do you feel about this call?
Brian: I'm going to be honest, I don't know. I feel like better that I kind of know a bit more of the person that you are, but at the same time I kind of feel like after saying stuff like that, I don't know. I'm just kind of reflecting on it, you know?
Dylan: And you're meaning reflecting on what you first wrote?
Brian: Yeah, I don't know, that's something that I actually said and I guess for now I feel good for reaching out to you, but at the same time I feel like reflecting on my comment, yeah. I kind of feel a bit shitty about it.
Dylan: I can't tell you how to feel and I can't change-
Brian: Yeah
Dylan: … how you feel. What I want to repeat to you is I really, really hope that you don't feel bad. Because I think you did one of the coolest things of all, which is just be like, "Hey, I wrote this. And I don't feel great about it, but I apologized." And for what it's worth, and I hope it's worth something, I accept your apology. So I guess we have to kind of close up.
Brian: Oh, yeah.
Dylan: I just want to say, Brian, it really has been really nice to get to know you. Thank you for doing this call. Now that I have you at the end with your distorted voice, are you comfortable with this going out as an episode?
Brian: Yeah, I am.
Dylan: Okay. Well Brian, it's been really nice talking to you and I’ll see you in the internet.
Brian: All right, well be safe on the internet, I don't know.
Dylan: You too. That's a nice cautionary sign off line for this. Well Brian, it was really nice talking to you and I'll talk to you soon, okay?
Brian: All right.
Dylan: Okay.
Brian: [inaudible].
Dylan: Bye Brian.
Brian: Bye.
[Phone call ends with a hang up sound. The drumbeat from ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals kicks in.]
Dylan [VOICEOVER CLOSING CREDITS]: If you'd like to be a guest on this show, please visit www.conversationswithpeoplewhohateme.com for more information.
Conversations With People Who Hate Me is a production of Nightvale Presents. Vincent Cacchione is the sound engineer and mixer. Christy Gressman is the executive producer. The theme song is These Dark Times by Caged Animals. The brand new logo was designed by Philip Blackowl with a photo by Mindy Tucker. And this podcast was created, produced, and hosted by me, Dylan Marron.
Special thanks to Adam Cecil and our publicist, Megan Larson.
We'll be releasing episodes every other week, so I will see you in two weeks with a brand new conversation.
Until then, remember there's a human on the other side of the screen.
[Chorus of ‘These Darks Times’ by Caged Animals plays.]