Dylan Marron

Episode 3: The Call is Coming From Inside The House

Dylan: You tagged me in this post? Did you want me to see it?

Matthew: I honestly didn't think that you would.

Dylan: Have you ever been publicly dragged?

Matthew: I have been.

[Instrumental of ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals begins to play.]

Dylan [VOICEOVER INTRODUCTION]: Hey, I'm Dylan Marron, and welcome back to Conversations with People who Hate Me. The interview series where I have extended conversations with people who have said the most negative or hateful things about me on the internet.

The response to this show has been amazing. Thank you for all of the emails of gratitude and thank you so much for spreading the word and telling your friends. I cannot tell you how much it means to me, but also just to balance it out, someone wrote, "Fuck you gay faggot" under an Instagram post I made about last week's episode and while it's not the most nuanced review, it's a review nonetheless.

Now, when I first set out to make this show, I wanted to make sure it wasn't just a battle of right versus left. Liberal ideologies pitted against conservative ones. So today's guest is not a detractor from the far right, but actually someone who reminds me a lot of me.

The title of today's episode is "The Call is Coming from Inside the House." You know that horror story where this babysitter is taking care of kids in an empty suburban home and she keeps getting menacing phone calls from a mysterious caller, only to see that the caller I.D. Reveals that the call is coming from inside the house? Yeah, it's terrifying and it shatters all sense of security.

Now, I don't mean to co-opt that urban legend babysitter's fictional experience. But when you get hate from someone who you're politically aligned with, you suddenly get scared. Kind of surprised that you'd get criticized from someone on the same side. It can be easier to write off criticism from someone so different from you, but when it's someone who's similar, that can be scary stuff.

So today I'm talking to Matt, and a little while ago Matt publicly posted this: "Dylan Marron represents some of the worst aspects of liberalism. His unboxing videos or mostly smug condescension that only speak to people who already agree with him. We don't need this kind of media right now. We need people that can speak to folks on both sides of the issue, communicators who can get folks to compromise to see another side and make incremental change. I've had enough of high horse liberalism." Um, so that is Matt and I'm going to call Matt right now.

[Phone rings. Music fades. Guest picks up.]

Dylan: Hi, is this Matt?

Matthew: Yes it is. This is Matthew. Hi Dylan.

Dylan: Hi. We're going to blank out your last name, and do you want to go by Matthew or Matt?

Matthew: Matthew.

Dylan: Hi Matthew. How are you doing today?

Matthew: I'm doing pretty well. I've had a good day with some art and I'm in the office, so it's successful already?

Dylan: All right, that sounds like a great day to me. To just start off, tell me a little about you.

Matthew: Well, I am a southern writer and artist. I do a lot of work in Atlanta, as well as in San Francisco. I'm a gay man. I do a lot of work about sexuality, about HIV. I'm very much interested in issues related to social justice. I think that from my own experience as a communicator, I've found like it's ... it can be really easy to produce articles or works that are finely tuned for maximum virality, but perhaps that doesn't achieve the point of changing minds. That's who I am. That's where I'm coming from as, as an artist and as a communicator.

Dylan: I think what's funny to me is that we are very similar because on paper there's a lot of overlap.

Matthew: Absolutely.

Dylan: Um, you know. We ...you're an artist. I'm an artist. We're both queer. We talk about social justice in our work so I think that was maybe why I was particularly, so, I guess, taken aback by what you wrote because I'm used to getting pushback from people who are far, far right and think I'm just an abomination to humanity. But there was something about seeing what you posted that was like, oh, like the call is coming from inside the house kind of thing. [Matthew laughs[I feel like that's also a trend I started seeing on the more national scale, that liberals were really kind of getting at each other's throats and critiquing each other. Is that something you saw on a bigger scale?

Matthew: I do. I have seen that on the bigger scale and I think that for me I'm a little bit more centrist, and so I received a lot of criticism from like the far flung left. I would love it if we could completely demolish hatred and live in a world with pure social justice. That'd be fantastic. However, I think that you can't achieve that much change so quickly. Change is daily. Change is incremental. Change is hard to get to, and it takes a little bit of hard work, and a little bit of little bit of pain and that's just part of the deal of life. You're telling me all of the world can't be changed from one very concise satirical internet video. Is that the news you're breaking to me?

Matthew: Unfortunately not. Unfortunately not.

Dylan: Matthew, why did you write that? What inspired you to write that about me?

Matthew: I found the unboxing videos to be a little bit problematic in the ways in which very important issues were discussed.

Dylan [VOICEOVER]:  All right. Just to jump in and explain for any listeners unfamiliar with my work who haven't listened to previous episodes. Matthew is referring to my unboxing series and you know those popular videos where YouTubers open up the latest electronic gadgets? Well I satirized those videos by unboxing intangible ideologies like police brutality, Islamophobia, and the mistreatment of Native Americans. Here is a clip from me unboxing privilege.

Dylan [CLIP FROM ‘UNBOXING PRIVILEGE’]: Today. I'm unboxing privilege. Nice. It's a silver spoon. Stick it in your mouth and see how far you get.

Matthew: I was just getting really tired of this sort of a liberal mediascape that's about eviscerating, destroying, tearing down all these militaristic terms-

Dylan: "Shutting down," yeah.

Matthew: Shutting down, yeah, that you see because I think that that's really not a good way to have a conversation, especially a conversation about political issues where we're trying to change minds. For me, maybe it comes back to the bigger picture of how you are leading your followers, how you're leading your audience.

Dylan: I do want to point out you made me sound like a cult leader, and I'm kind of flattered by that, so ... [laughing]

Matthew: [Laughs] I think you would make a wonderful cult leader.

Dylan: Oh Matthew!

Matthew: I think that when I stare into your eyes, I just see the beauty and the depth of eternity.

Dylan: Wow. God. Matthew. Thank you. I'm going to quit this podcast and I'm going to go start a cult right now. Okay?

Matthew: [Laughing] I think that you could make the most safe space, supportive social justice cult possible. People would follow you to the ends of the Earth. [Dylan laughs] Just don't give them Kool-Aid.

Dylan: Well, I'll give them Kool-Aid, but it will be Vegan and low sugar. [Matthew laughs] I think Kool-Aid is already Vegan. Just kidding. We're not sponsored by Kool-Aid. We can't say this. Yeah, it would be Kool-Aid, but no poison in it. Right? Just like a nice refreshing beverage. [Matthew laughs]

Matthew: You know, I'm a liberal person myself. I voted for Hillary Clinton of course. But I think that it's really important for us as liberals to always approach a conversation from a place of empathy, from a place of, even if you disagree with me, I can have a civil conversation you and hear out the other side. Even if the other side is painful and hard to hear, and maybe try and make a just a few changes and somebody who disagrees with me as a liberal person, that's where I'm coming from as a communicator.

Dylan: Matthew, you posted this pretty publicly and you also tagged me in it, so I saw it right when you posted it. Have you ever been publicly dragged?

Matthew: I have been by both people I know and people I don't know. I'll start off with the one where it was people I knew.

Dylan: Okay.

Matthew: I had written a series of articles about my experience taking PrEP, and it was not a very good experience for me.

Dylan [VOICEOVER]:  For those of you who don't know what PrEP is, don't worry. PrEP stands for preexposure prophylaxis. It is, according to the CDC, "When people at very high risk for HIV take HIV medicines daily to lower their chances of getting infected. PrEP can stop HIV from taking hold and spreading throughout your body. Daily prep reduces the risk of getting HIV from sex by more than 90%."

Matthew: Then just like then the next day this person wrote this long Facebook post just tearing me down, tagging me, of course, about just how terrible I was, how I am a self-hating homosexual, how I am homophobic and destroying the gay community. Then just seeing a lot of people I knew just like piling on in the comment section. I had some friends call me up and ask if ... "Oh do I need to defend you? Do I need to get on there?" I just said, "No, I don't care."

Dylan: And did you not care?

Matthew: But it was hard.

Dylan: Did you not care?

Matthew: Oh, well I cared. Yes.

[BREAK]

Matthew: Oh well I cared. Yes. [laughs] It's taken me probably a couple of years to inure myself to these sorts of things. But I've had to learn how to a, realize that these sorts of responses just come with the job. It's part of the work. You can expect it.

Dylan: And what about being publicly dragged by people you don't know?

Matthew: So, I had partnered with the National Center for Civil and Human Rights in Atlanta to make a piece of public art called Atlanta's HIV Positive Population Now...

Dylan [VOICEOVER]: All right. I want to visually describe the public art piece Matthew created. It's a roughly seven foot black pyramid in downtown Atlanta that is actively updated with Atlanta's HIV positive population.

Matthew: ...and Go out there every week and I update the number. Right before this phone call, I had just gone out there and updated the number. My goal with this piece was to speak to people who are outside of the bubble I'm in. As a gay person, I know that HIV. Queer people know about HIV.

Dylan: And what did that public dragging look like? Like how did it manifest?

Matthew: Just a very, very, hot article written about me on a local queer zine that was, oh gosh ... how I am racist, I guess because I didn't center the like Black trans experience in my work.

Dylan: If I'm understanding correctly, you were just counting the whole number of all of Atlanta, of the people in all of Atlanta who were HIV positive, right?

Matthew: Yes. Well, I ... that's actually ... not every artwork can be all things to all people, and as art critics, I think it's imperative to discuss what's there rather than try and make up this sort of like straw man theoretical piece of what you think it should have been. Um... and yes, I do understand that people of color, trans people, people who are housing and food unstable are very much at the center of this epidemic here in Atlanta. But the data that I'm drawing from doesn't get that granular, first of all, and it's really meant to be about the entire epidemic is what my piece was. This is a number, and I understand that it may be uncomfortable for a lot of people to view. I think that that's a good space for art to be in. Art should be very much something that upsets your daily routine. It should strike you. It should be something that makes you completely rethink everything, and sometimes art is not lovely and positive. What I say with all my art is the art is not the object itself. The art is the conversation that you can start through your work.

Dylan: Yeah, I totally agree.

Matthew: Being able to spark all these other conversations about stigma, about the role of HIV in our community, I think that my work absolutely did what I wanted it to do. I think that it was hard for me to deal with the fact that people who I know are dragging me and calling me an expert in shame, and calling me homophobic and racist-

Dylan: Did you read the essay that was written about you?

Matthew: I got the CliffsNotes from friends.

Dylan: Got it. Why didn't you want to read it?

Matthew: It's not useful for me to have that emotional experience of having to read all these terrible things about me. It's just more important that I understand what they're saying and why they're saying it so I can incorporate that into my future work.

Dylan: Just to go back to what you had written about me. You tagged me in this post. Did you want me to see it?

Matthew: [laughing] I honestly didn't think that you would.

Dylan: Really?

Matthew: [laughing] Really, and I think that was also before a lot of ... before I experienced a lot of the same things of being dragged online. I think that now I would definitely not do something like that.

Dylan: Not tag me or not post it at all?

Matthew: [inhales] I don't think I would post it at all. I think that that was an example of me putting some negative energy into the world that was hateful and not appropriate. I do still stand by the sentiment of that idea, but I-

Dylan: That I represent some of the worst aspects of liberalism?

Matthew: I think the unboxing videos do.

Dylan: Okay.

Matthew: I am sorry for responding negatively. I think that was not something that I'm proud of. I think that I don't want to put in more negative energy into this world anymore. I think there's already enough of it, so I really want to refocus my own work and regear my own mind towards more positive ways of communicating.

Dylan: Do you regret writing this post about me?

Matthew: No, because I'm having a wonderful conversation with you right now.

Dylan: Matthew!

Matthew: I would not have had this conversation had I not written that.

Dylan: That's true. Well, thank you. [laughing] Thank you for saying that I represent the worst aspects because I just want to say I'm also really enjoying this conversation too, so I think it's important. I mean it's ... there was part of me that was uncomfortable, and I think uniquely uncomfortable because like I said, we're so similar that when someone who's so similar to you kind of has a strong dislike for you, you're like, "Oh fuck, there's something wrong with me." You know what I mean? So, Matthew, I wanted to reveal something to you that this podcast actually does have a title, and I wanted to know if you agree with it. This podcast is called Conversations with People who Hate Me. Do you still hate me?

Matthew: [laughing] I didn't hate you going into it.

Dylan: Oh okay.

Matthew: I just strongly disliked the unboxing videos.

Dylan: [laughing] Okay. Okay.

Matthew: I think that we should definitely be doing what you're doing right now, which is using technology to find common ground with people, even who disagree with you rather than using technology to further divide us.

Dylan: Yeah. I love that you said that because I also really bristle ... I bristle at the criticism that says that the internet is this awful place, right? Because sure, I think there are a lot of negative things that can come out of the internet, but I think there are also a lot of beautiful things that can come out of the internet to Do you know what I mean? I don't know. How do you see the internet?

Matthew: Well, I'm going to get very theoretical with you right now.

Dylan: Take me there.

Matthew: There's this idea that the computers are going to take over one day. They're going to overthrow society and it's going to look like 2001: A Space Odyssey where it's the sentient computer that has achieved uh, primacy over man and is able to control them. Whereas possibly maybe we would destroy ourselves if we choose to use technology for hatred, for dividing ourselves, for being mean to other people, and so I think that don't think that the androids are going to come and destroy us. Perhaps we might destroy ourselves if we don't figure out a way to use the internet and its technologies in a way that builds peace and builds bridges of understanding amongst ourselves.

Dylan: A lot of that I'm actually trying to do by making this podcast. Um, you know trying to ...if I can be so bold as to say model the way we can have conversations that people who disagree with us or people who have posted negative things about us. I think that is also an important skill, right? Conversation, kind of disarming each other so that we can actually give way to a conversation like the one we just had. I mean, we just had a really, to me, fascinating conversation about like the role of art and our similarities and what makes us different, and how we see the role of art in the world and that's really valuable to me, you know?

Matthew: I think that we are aware in real life when we are putting out negative energy, and the repercussions it has. I think that we should be aware of that online as well and think about, even if I disagree with you, how can I frame it in a way that is positive and empathetic and builds bridges. I think that, you know, the old me just a year ago who posted and tagged you on Facebook was not approaching my disagreement with you from an empathetic place. But now that's what I'm interested in doing as a person, as a writer, as an artist, as just a human being, having a spiritual experience. No, excuse me, a spiritual being having a human experience.

Dylan: Having a human experience.

Matthew: Spiritual being having a human experience.

Dylan: Yeah. Well Matthew, I totally affirm that and I think that's just such a great way to end this conversation. Great to talk to you today, and I'll see you on the internet. Okay?

Matthew: All right. See ya later!

Dylan: Okay. Bye Matthew!

Matthew: Bye.

[Phone call ends with a hang up sound. The drumbeat from ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals kicks in.]

Dylan [VOICEOVER CLOSING CREDITS]: Conversations with People who Hate Me is a production of Night Vale Presents. Christy Gressman is the executive producer. Vincent Cacchione is the sound engineer and mixer. Alen Rahimic is the production manager. The theme song is These dark Times by Caged Animals. The logo was designed by Rob Wilson and this podcast was created, produced and hosted by me, Dylan Marron.

Special thanks to Night Vale Presents' director of marketing, Adam Cecil, our publicist, Christine Ragasa, and also Dustin Flannery-McCoy, Rob Silcox, Mark Maloney, and production assistants, Allison Goldberger and Emily Moler. Thank you to all of those who gave encouragement throughout this process, and also thank you to those who warned me against doing this project. I did it anyway, and yes, thank you to those who wrote the hateful messages, comments, and posts that inspired me to turn one way and negativity into productive two way conversations.

Thank you so much for listening and we will be back with another conversation next week. If you love this show, tell all of your friends about it, and if you hated this show, maybe write to me and tell me why you hated it and who knows, maybe you'll be a guest on the show.

Just remember, there is a human on the other side of the screen.

[Chorus of ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals plays.]