EPISODE 29: BOB THE DRAG QUEEN
Dylan: So I guess my question is: was there anything you saw in Bob that you recognized in yourself that might have been behind you tweeting that?
James: Ooh. Oooh.
Bob: Oh yes henny! (laughs) It's getting really up in here henny! (laughs).
Dylan: Yes!
[Instrumental of ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals begins to play.]
Dylan [VOICEOVER INTRODUCTION]: Hey and welcome back to Conversations with People Who Hate Me, the show where I take negative online conversations and move them offline. I'm your host, Dylan Marron, and today, I'm moderating a call between strangers.
If you're familiar with RuPaul's Drag Race, the popular reality competition show where drag queens compete to win a cash prize and the title of America's Next Drag Superstar, then you'll likely know one of today's guests, the winner of Rupaul's Drag Race Season 8, Bob The Drag Queen. As a contestant, Bob was a huge hit with viewers and judges alike, but not everyone was a fan, as is the case with many reality competition shows, some audience members feel compelled to vocally trash the contestants they don't love.
Which is exactly what happened when James, a British viewer of Rupaul's Drag Race, took to Twitter a few years ago to Tweet, "I really, really, really don't like Bob The Drag Queen."
Now if you're not familiar with Bob, RuPaul's Drag Race, or even drag culture, that's totally okay. This episode is about so much more than that, and we cover a lot of ground, from why share our fleeting opinions about celebrities, to self-confidence, to how we use social media when we're feeling low. It's a lovely conversation.
First, I'll speak to Bob, then to James, and then I will connect them to each other. So let's kick things off. Here is Bob.
[Music fades. Conversation begins.]
Dylan: Hi Bob.
Bob: Hi. (LAUGHTER) You have, did you know that you have a slightly different podcast voice than your-
Dylan: Really?
Bob: Yeah, it's slightly different.
Dylan: I wonder if-
Bob: It's more inviting.
Dylan: That's more my-
Bob: Or just softer.
Dylan: Yeah. Well I wonder ... It feels to me like the same thing, but in the way that we all are naturally performative people when we're like ... we're different when we're on camera. We're different when we're talking to a person.
Bob: For sure.
Dylan: Yeah. We're different in all those ways. That's so funny. In my mind I was just like, all right, and now we're recording.
Bob: Well you listeners don't know but Dylan sounds like Gilbert Gottfried when ... He was like, (imitating Gilbert Gottfried) "Oh welcome to my home. It's so good to have you."
Dylan: I'm glad you're outing me right now--
Bob: --"Hi Bob, how are you?"
Dylan: Hi Bob. Yeah. (BOB LAUGHTER) This is all a ruse. Hello listeners. This is all fake.
Bob: You can be the real you. Go ahead. Let him loose.
Dylan: (GOTTFRIED IMPRESSION ATTEMPT) I can't even do it. I'm going to hurt my throat.
Bob: Yeah, doing Gilbert does hurt. You know Gilbert doesn't even talk like that? I met him before.
Dylan: Oh really?
Bob: He doesn't even talk like that. It's a stage thing--
Dylan: --Woah what does he talk like? What if talks like me and I'm just ... my podcast voice.--
Bob: --Yeah, his real voice is your podcast voice and vice versa.
Dylan: Oh my God. Wow we're like Stranger Things. We're the upside down versions of each other.
Bob: Very. Very that Freaky Friday.
Dylan: Oh very that Freaky Friday. The Lindsay Lohan version? Okay.
Bob: Oh yeah. Of course.
Dylan: God bless us all.
Bob: I met Lindsay Lohan recently.
Dylan: Really? How was she?
Bob: She seemed cool. She's like some lady.
Dylan: God bless her.
Bob: Yeah, just some lady.
Dylan: She's living her life.
Bob: Yeah, she has a new reality TV show.
Dylan: I know. I know. Wait, I want to get to you though.
Bob: Oh I have a bad habit of derailing.
Dylan: No, I love the ... the derailing is what makes this good, but Bob you are the ... Let me say the full legal name. Bob The Drag Queen.
Bob: Yes. Bob Roberta Elaine the Drag Queen.
Dylan: Bob Roberta Elaine the Drag Queen. Perfect. People might know you from many things. People might know you as the winner of Rupaul's Drag Race Season 8--
Bob: --That's how most people would know me.
Dylan: Right, or they might know you as a comedian.
Bob: They might.
Dylan: How do you identify, artistically?
Bob: I say, "I'm a comedian."
Dylan: Yeah.
Bob: Yeah. I usually say I'm a performer, but if I'm traveling abroad and they go, "What are you doing here?" I go, "I'm a comedian." Then, yeah, they might know me from Rupaul's Drag Race. Much fewer people might know me from the film, Cherry Pop. Or even fewer people would know me from the show, Playing House. And even fewer people (DYLAN LAUGHTER) would know me from my standup comedy special, Suspiciously Large Woman.
Dylan: On Prime.
Bob: On Amazon Prime, yeah.
Dylan: So get out there.
Bob: Go out there and watch it.
Dylan: So you are a persona that a lot of people know. You're a person a lot of people know. You have a lot of fans and for good reason. I'm a huge fan myself.
Bob: Oh well thank you.
Dylan: So I'm telling you right now. But tell me about who you are in the kind of mundane way, like what we might not know about Brob. (LAUGHTER) Brob. Tell me about Brob. Who is Brob?
Bob: I was like you might not know my name.
Dylan: I've never heard of you before. What don't we know about Bob The Drag Queen? Tell us mundane stuff.
Bob: Well you know I really love ... my friends would say that I hate eating in restaurants. I really prefer to eat at home, but I don't cook. I never cook, actually. I'm trying to get over this, but I really am big into, if you'll be like, "Where should we eat?" And everybody's naming nice places, I'm like, "I just want Domino's delivered to the apartment. We could just watch videos on Amazon or YouTube or Netflix." I mean I travel a lot. I'm not home terribly often. I live in Manhattan. I'm from Atlanta, Georgia. My life really is mostly working and preparing to work, which is working.
Dylan: Introvert? Extrovert? Where do you fall on the spectrum?
Bob: Somewhere in between the two. I mean I am an onstage extrovert and amongst my friends, I am an extrovert. But in rooms of people I really don't know, I'm not really much of a chatty Kathy. No offense to all the listeners named Kathy (LAUGHTER) or any listeners named Chatty.
Dylan: Yeah. Who knows? Maybe their last name is Kathy. Maybe you really pinpointed someone.
Bob: That one lady named Chatty Kathy.
Dylan: Chatty Kathy, and she's like wow I feel seen.
Bob: Which to be fair, your parents should have really thought that name.
Dylan: Yeah, but maybe they didn't. That's okay.
Bob: (LAUGHTER) But uhm, In situations where I don't know a lot of people, I tend to be a little bit more introverted, unless the spotlight's on me, then I'm really extroverted.
Dylan: Yeah.
Bob: Yeah.
Dylan: How did you get into drag?
Bob: Oh, I saw it on Drag Race.
Dylan: Really?
Bob: Yeah. I watched Season 1 and I was like, "Wow, this looks ... " and I watched Bebe Zhara Benet and I thought she was so regal and so beautiful. Then I said to myself, "I bet I could do that," and that was literally the whole ...
Dylan: Wow.
Bob: And I was like, "I bet I could do the same thing."
Dylan: That's wild.
Bob: Then I started immediately doing drag during Season 1 of Drag Race, while it was still airing. Then I just started going out. I did four completions a week. I kept going until eventually, someone thought I was funny, and they hired me. Then someone else thought I was funny. Then I just kept getting hired and hired. Then before I went on Drag Race, I was doing probably six to eight shows a week in the city.
Dylan: Wow. And then here we are.
Bob: And here we are.
Dylan: Now I've made it all the Conversations with People Who Hate Me.
Bob: I know, this is the peak. I think every contestant-
Dylan: I've been on the CWP ...
Bob: PWHM.
Dylan: Work. Yeah. Of course there is a flip side to being very successful and very known and very loved as you are, which is seeing a lot of negativity about yourself.
Bob: The haters.
Dylan: The haters.
Bob: The haters.
Dylan: The haters. That's the new name of the podcast.
Bob: Yeah the haters.
Dylan: How does it register with you? Do you pay attention to it at all?
Bob: I do pay attention to it, and it registers different depending on what they say, and where I'm at in my life. When I was on Drag Race and I would get negativity, it was ... What happens is when you do Drag Race, you create something or you collaborate with someone, and then you present it to the world, and then the judges critique you right in front of your face. Really read you.
Dylan: Panel of judges. Yeah.
Bob: Then you go home. Then you rewatch it on television in front of the world. Then the fans go online, and they critique you. Then people makes videos where they review the whole episodes, and then they critique you. Then people critique the people critiquing you. Then people chime in with their opinions about your looks and your makeup and your jokes and comedy and your ... and not just that, but also just your face-
Dylan: Just your just whole essence, yeah.
Bob: ... your body.
Dylan: Your existence.
Bob: Your existence. Everything about you. It can be heavy sometimes, but over the time I've grown to just ... It bother's me a lot less these days.
Dylan: Let's pivot to what we're here to do. We are here to talk to a guy names James. He Tweeted a few years ago, "I really, really, really don't like Bob The Drag Queen."
Bob: Was it in relations to something? Was it on thread?
Dylan: Nope. It was just his Tweet.
Bob: Solo Tweet.
Dylan: Solo Tweet that solo exists. Tweet Tweet. So I know this is an impossible question because you have no idea who this person is, but just give the very little information that you have, what is your perception of James?
Bob: I mean I'm assuming that James is probably young, maybe under 25, or at least at the time of the Tweet. Probably is passionate about the things that he really loves. Or that they really loves, I don't know James' pronouns. That James probably really gets into it when watching a show or reading a book, is really into the things that James is into to. And is also probably passionate about supporting the things that James loves to.
Dylan: So I'm going to go speak to James, and then you'll both speak to each other. Sound good?
Bob: Work.
[Solo conversation ends. Phone rings. Second guest picks up.]
Dylan: Hey James.
James: Hey.
Dylan: How are you?
James: I'm doing really good. One of my best mates in school is coming down to see me.
Dylan: Oh nice.
James: I haven't seen her in ages. I barely speak to anyone from school, because you know, being gay we all hated school didn't we?
Dylan: Is there anything fun planned for today?
James: Well literally, we're both pretty broke at the moment, we're just going to stay in. I've got my old Nintendo Wii, so we're going to Mario Kart. We're going to have a whole throwback to the childhood thing. It's going to be a great laugh, yeah, yeah.
Dylan: That is really, really wonderful. I mean I do think just some of the best nights can be done on a very tight to zero budget, so I think you're going to have a great time.
James: It all depends on the company, doesn't it?
Dylan: Yeah. Yeah (INAUDIBLE JAMES CROSSTALK). I think you're right. Yes, exactly. Exactly. All right, so James to kick this off, I want to start with a question I ask every single on of my guest, which is in only as many details as you're comfortable sharing, tell be about you.
James: Oh God. Thank you so much for asking that question. I love talking about myself, as we all do.
Dylan: Okay, good. Good.
James: Hi. My name is James.
Dylan: (SOFT CROSSTALK) Hi James.
James: I'm 23. I'm from the UK, which explains the accent, obviously. I think I told you earlier, I've had a few issues about mental health and stuff. My way coping with it is we just take the piss. We just joke about so much. All the jokes are like. "Ah ha ha, I'm so alone." All that stuff. (LAUGHTER) It's our way of dealing with it.
Dylan: I mean are you comfortable talking about the mental health stuff here? We don't have to explore it if you don't want to.
James: Yeah. No, talk about as much as you want. I've been through some shit. I'm very open about it. Yeah.
Dylan: Okay, well if don't mind sharing, what kind of shit?
James: Ooh okay. I will say a lot of it involves people who probably wouldn't want to be mentioned or anything.
Dylan: Okay, great.
James: But I'll say, growing up, childhood adolescence, very, very difficult. I was in a situation that wasn't really my choice, so I had to grow up quickly. But I'll get into it. I also had quite a rough relationship with a lot of people growing up then. I've had issues with depression, anxiety, for as long as I can remember. What I like to talk about mental health is how I've come. How strong I've become kind of thing.
Dylan: Yeah. Please take us there.
James: As cliché as it's going to sound, I think I'm the strongest person I know or this--
Dylan: --That's amazing. This wonderful. I feel like I have a beautiful and wonderful three dimensional image of you as a human on the internet.
James: Oh thank you man. That's nice to hear.
Dylan: Or I said, "Human on the internet." I just mean human in the world and I just happened to meet you on the internet.
James: Well I mean I am a real person, which is something-
Dylan: You are a real person, (JAMES LAUGHTER) which is literally the whole reminder of this show is that there's a human behind the screen.
James: Oh, yeah that's very true.
Dylan: So that's a good segue. A little while ago, you Tweeted, "I really, really, really don't like Bob The Drag Queen."
James: Can I point out ... 15th of April, 2017. That's almost two years back.
Dylan: Yeah, we're nearing the two year anniversary of this Tweet, so consider this a celebration. As best as you can, I know you can't remember everything, but what made you want to Tweet this?
James: So, I have done a bit of thinking on this. I'll be honest. When I first saw it, I was like, "Jesus. I can't remember for shit why I Tweeted this." (LAUGHTER) Because personally, Bob's really, really great. I really like him. But I do remember not liking him at some point, so I'm trying to figure out those reasons why. I remember when I saw it, I think in my head, I immediately thought, overrated. I think what's easy about Twitter is you can get your opinion out there. When you're like me, when you like to complain a lot ... at the time, I wasn't in a healthy place as well, so my mind was really very negative. You'll mis-exaggerate your opinions and feelings. And because you're behind a barrier, you've got protection in it. So I just Tweeted out that I really, really, really, really, (LAUGHTER) really don't like Bob The Drag Queen. I'll be honest, I couldn't remember Tweeting it.
Dylan: Did you ever think that Bob would see it?
James: Jesus Christ, no. Have you seen my Twitter? No one looks at it anyway. Let alone--
Dylan: --I'm looking at it.
James: Thank you for that. One person looking.
Dylan: Yes. No, that's great.
James: No, I'd never think he'd look. I still can't believe I'm going to have to speak to him. I'm terrified.
Dylan: So that's my next question. How are you feeling about that?
James: I'll be honest. I'm really, really excited.
Dylan: Really? Okay, good.
James: I cannot wait.
Dylan: Good. Good. Good.
James: I mean obviously, I've got that mix of fear, because I've ... It's both excitement and fear, that's he's going to read me to shit about it, and I hope he does quickly.
Dylan: That's interesting. You want-
James: He did it so well.
Dylan: ... him to read you. You want Bob to kind of roast you.
James: Oh, my sense of humor's very much tainted with fear, so don't take me seriously. I love roasting, as we all call it, each other. I don't think I'm the best at it, but I seem to fake it very well.
Dylan: But you look forward to being roasted by Bob. That's so interesting, because this is such a non-roast show. But who knows? If the roasting is consensual, then I support roasting.
James: Well I think this is the thing you were going to say, another reason I'm excited is because I don't know what's going to happen. I'm just going to get to speak to a real human, and I'm just really excited. I have no idea what's going to happen, but I'm really glad to speak to him to speak to him. Yeah.
Dylan: I'm excited too. What was your perception of Bob at the time that you wrote that Tweet?
James: Ooh, the time I wrote it? Annoying. Overrated. Good, but not my favorite.
Dylan: Interesting. All right, so I guess the next step is you and Bob are going to speak to each other. Sound good?
James: I can't wait. I'm really excited.
Dylan: Okay, wonderful.
[Phone rings. All guests are now connected.]
Dylan: James, you are with Bob, and Bob, you are on with James.
Bob: Oh, wow.
James: Hi. You alright, Bob?
Bob: Oh, I'm well James. How are you?
James: I'm doing all right. How are you doing?
Bob: I'm in a great mood. I heard you were British, but I just forgot.
Dylan: Yeah, now you are reminded.
James: Oh, thank you.
Dylan: I want you guys to get to know each other, so James, why don't you tell us and tell Bob about you?
James: So, hi. My name is James. I'm a Libra. Oh my God. (LAUGHTER) No, I'm British, obviously. I'm 23 years old. I work as an accountant at a big firm, which is just as boring as it sounds. Believe me. What else? I play piano. That's pretty fun.
Bob: (CROSSTALK: Oh wow--)
James: I'm gay, obviously. Aren't we all? Aren't we all here?
Dylan: Yeah, that's why ... yeah.
Bob: That's the tie that binds us.
Dylan: The tie that binds us.
James: Oh yeah.
Bob: Am I allowed to ask questions?
Dylan: Yes.
Bob: What is your connection to Rupaul's Drag Race?
James: Oooh basically, I started watching it two years ago because I was really depressed, and had nothing better to do. It slowly became my favorite show of all time. I got so emotional over it during my first time watching.
Dylan: And just wanted to encourage you both throughout this whole process, feel free to jump in and ask each other questions. You can speak in the second person.
Bob: We just don't talk to each other. Can you please ask James ...
Dylan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is Jerry Springer of the airways.
Bob: There's a lawyer at our divorce deposition.
Dylan: Yes, exactly.
Bob: Can you please tell James that I don't hear her. (JAMES BIG LAUGHTER)
Dylan: This is-- (LAUGHTER) this is an annulment. Yeah, okay. So this is perfect. This is out to a great start. Okay Bob, why don't kick it off?
James: Yeah, please do. Please do.
Dylan: Tell James about you.
Bob: Well you know I moved to New York City in 2008. I was on tour with this children's theatre.
James: Really?
Bob: I was going to go back home to- Yeah. I used to do children's theatre. I actually thought for a long time, my whole career was going to be children's theatre and educational theatre and working with kids.
James: Oh fantastic.
Bob: Then I said, "I want to move to New York City and give it a shot." I was going to move back to Columbus, Georgia, which is where I was born, and then where I went to college first. But the guy I was touring with said, "Hey, if you move straight to New York, I'll buy your ticket, because I really think you"-
James: Oh really?
Bob: Yeah. He goes, "I really just believe in you and I think you need to get there."
James: Oh how lovely. Very nice.
Bob: When I landed in New York City, within a couple of months, Drag Race came out. I started watching Drag Race and I thought, man that's sort of amazing, so then I was auditioning. I got a couple of offers for stuff that I thought was really ... What's the word I'm looking for? Not what I was looking for. I wasn't looking to travel, I was looking to do work in New York City-
Dylan: Like touring companies and stuff like that?
Bob: Yeah, but I also wasn't getting offers that paid very well or anything, so I just started doing drag in the meantime. And to really-- To be honest, until I did drag, I never thought I could be that good at anything. I was like, "I'm really, really good at this" --
James: (CROSSTALK: Wow) wonderful!
Bob: I think I have a grasp on what I was supposed to be doing this whole time." Then I started doing drag and building myself up through the New York City nightlife scene. Then of course, I was on Drag Race,
James: Yeah!
Bob: --and the rest is on Instagram.
Dylan: Yes. The rest is on Instagram. So that's where you guys intersected. Bob, you are on Drag Race, James, you're watching Drag Race. Then James, a few years ago, you Tweet out, "I really, really, really don't like Bob The Drag Queen."
James: As I've already told you, I don't remember tweeting that whatsoever. It got no likes, whatsoever, so no one else remembered it. So you know, really influential tweet there.
Dylan: I mean influential now. Look, it brought us all together.
James: To one person, sure. Like my claim to fame. My 15 minutes. Oh my God. Thank you.
Dylan: Noo. Fun. This is going to be an hour long podcast. (LAUGHTER) It's an hour long. Yeah.
James: I'm going to talk as much as possible to hear my own voice. Yeah.
Dylan: Good. We're ready for it.
James: No, this Tweet, basically I can't remember doing it whatsoever. What I do remember, is the first I watched Season 8, I wasn't a fan of you, personally. I think it's because, going straight into it, I mean you know yourself. You saw yourself on TV. You knew you came in so confident. But I think what I didn't like, is because you were so confident, in my head as a fan, I was like, right. Prove yourself. Go on. Let's see what you can do. From what I saw at the time, I was like, "Oh well, this isn't the funniest person I've seen in my life for me, therefore, I'm not going to be a fan of it." So my smart mind decided, you know what? I'm going to Tweet this out. I'm going to share my opinion with the world and see how this works out. It was obviously opinion in the moment. Didn't remember doing it, and it was obviously just filled with a lot of hatred. I mean three reallys? Really.
Dylan: Yeah.
Bob: (LAUGHTER) Really, really?
Dylan: Yeah.
Bob: Well I mean I found that as a person who ... and it's not by the way, it's not that I'm emboldened with confidence in every single aspect of my life, but I know what I am good at and I really am proud of those things. So there's a lot of self-deprecating in the world. I tend to lean into the things that I really do like about myself and amplify those things, as opposed to highlighting the things that I don't like about myself. It's not saying no one else is good, it's just saying.
James: (CROSSTALK: Yeah--).
Bob: --that I know what I'm good at and that I celebrate this in myself. But I've noticed that that really affects people in a really interesting way to see someone who genuinely believes in themselves and doesn't really apologize for it very much. Especially because on my Season, there were a lot of girls who didn't believe in themselves and doubted themselves.
James: Totally--
Bob: I think that people who do doubt themselves relate to that and they tend to align themselves with that. The person who's saying they're great, they're like, "Well I'm not like that, so I don't like that person, but I do like the other people who do the opposite thing."
James: Oh I agree with you there. I must say everyone loves an underdog who will come in to do anything. Oh the underdog's got nothing and then they slam down, during the whole thing. If can just ask you a question Bob now, you said you love many things about yourself. What are those things?
Bob: Well I think that I'm really funny. (LAUGHTER) I'm really good at entertaining a crowd. I think that as I've gotten older, I recently found myself to be quite handsome.
James: Ooooh
Bob: As a younger guy, I didn't believe it so much, but now I really feel it. I also have a boyfriend now who tells me all the time, so I'm like, "Oh, I must be really good looking."
James: Oh do you? How long?
Bob: Me and Jacob have been dating for ... it'll be a year in March.
Dylan: Oh nice.
James: Oh lovely. One of the lucky ones.
Bob: I think I'm a really good friend.
James: Aww
Bob: People who are my friend, I really commit a lot to them. Not in a way where I'm committing this, that, and I want something back, but just in the idea that I really enjoy having them around and I'll do a lot of them. I find myself to be really giving, and I'm really proud of how persistent I am.
James: That's always something to be proud of. Yeah.
Bob: What are some things you love about yourself James?
James: I was thinking, God, he's going to ask me this question. I'm going to have to find something to answer. I love quite a lot of things about myself. I personally think I'm really funny. I think it's bit of a personal taste, but it's a good taste I have, and that's fine. I, like you Bob, I think I'm a really good friend, personally, especially if I'm dating someone. I tend to get a lot of the, "I really like you as a friend, but I do want to stay friends with you, because you're a really good mate," and that kind of pissed me off a bit. What else do I love about myself? I really like my nose, because it's massive. I think it's really distinct. I think that's really good. What else do I love about ... I love my piano. I think I'm pretty good at that. Yeah. What else do I ...
Bob: What's your favorite song to play on piano?
James: Not to slap my own ass or anything, but something I've written, because it's beautiful. Yeah, yeah.
Bob: Oh what is it? Does it have a name?
James: Oh, no. I don't tend to name them. I should probably get around to doing that actually.
Bob: I have a suggestion.
James: Oh go on.
Bob: I really, really, really ... Just kidding. (LAUGHTER)
Dylan: I really, really, really love this song.
James: Another thing quickly, I love my laugh. Oh I love my laugh. It's brilliant.
Dylan: Great.
Bob: Oh, Lord.
Dylan: I want to take the conversation more macro, because thing there is something ... We have three gay boys on this phone call and I do not and we not, of course, speak for the whole LGBTQ community when we say this, but I do think that confidence can be hard-won for people like us.
James: Oh yeah
Bob: Our respective experiences are going to be different from each other. Maybe listeners will not relate, but I just know that confidence is really hard-won for us. I want put something out there to you guys to see what you think about this, but I wonder if we are more turned off by other people's confidence who we relate to--
James: Ooh
Dylan: --because we are scared of what it means for ourselves.
James: What do you mean by scared ... sorry (MUMBLING) if you identify it--
Dylan: I guess we're intimidated by seeing people who are like us, i.e. gay boys, feeling confident, because we have been told pretty repeatedly to not feel that way, and that confidence is this thing we have to fight for.
James: Ooh interesting.
Bob: I know that for me, whenever I see ... I'm about to sound like the only self-help girl, but I remember year ago, reading The Help. Not The Help, The Secret. Not the book, The Help, (LAUGHTER) which is a great book, I'm sure.
Dylan: Yeah, Bob read, The Help and he loved it and turned it into a movie. Yeah. Bob directed it.
Bob: I read The Secret. I remember it said, "If you see someone who has something you want, be happy for them as if it's yours,
James: Ohhh
Bob: and then it can be yours." It's easier to see someone who has something that you want, and either be jealous of it or to want it for yourself. But I do think we live in a world of abundance and that I can have that too. So if you can have happiness, there's also some happiness for me. Happiness isn't diamond that runs out. Happiness is trees that keep growing, and growing, and growing, and there keeps being more happiness replenished all the time.
Dylan: James, what about you? Do you feel that maybe we judge fellow gay people with a harsher ... what's the word I'm looking for guys? With a harsher metric?
Bob: Yeah. There's less of a curve.
James: Oh yeah, yeah.
Dylan: Yeah, there's less of a curve. We judge each other more harshly, because confidence is a hard-won. Does that resonate with you at all?
James: Maybe. I'll be honest with you, to think about now, I'll probably have to smoke something to figure out that question first. (LAUGHTER) What I will say-
Bob: Do you mean like some sage or some rosemary?
James: Oh yeah.
Dylan: Yeah, just rosemary. That's all.
James: What I will say is I think this is related to anyone, LGBT community or not kind of thing, is what I've noticed about myself is that you tend to criticize and get more angry at stuff that you see in other people, that you know are faults in yourself. What I say of other gays though, do I take down other people because they're gay and similar to me?
Dylan: No, I don't mean taking them down because they're gay, it's more in the way that we will sooner criticize our own family members than other people. But also the answer could be no. You don't relate to that, and that's totally fine. (LAUGHTER)
James: You know what? It might have to be a no then. Maybe because I just can't think in my head of an example of when it's happened like that.
Dylan: That's totally fine. I totally respect that. I guess my question is, was there anything you saw in Bob that you recognized in yourself that might have been behind Tweeting that?
James: Ooh. Ooh
Bob: Oh yes henny! (laughs) It's getting really up in here henny!! (laughs)
[BREAK]
Dylan: Was there anything you saw in Bob that you recognized in yourself that might have been (CROSSTALK: behind Tweeting that?)
James: I suppose, but I can't think of any specifics right now.
Bob: So maybe that moment I just did something you were like, "I just don't like this bitch."
Dylan: Yeah, you also-
James: It could be that.
Dylan: Totally. Maybe there isn't some large universal truth here, you were just like, “ugh, blegh-” (GUEST LAUGHTER) "Not this queen. No." And that is-
Bob: "Not my cup of trends." (LAUGHTER)
Dylan: Yes. All right. Well then here's another bigger question, there's this right we feel that we have, and maybe you don't feel this, but in general, there is right humans feel that they have to critique people who are living public lives. So if they're on a television show, especially if they're competing on a competition reality television show, we feel ... and I'm using this, "We" liberally, we feel that we have the right to criticize them. Right?
Bob: I do feel that way. It's like this idea that I had. Bear in mind I'm about to speak on a topic I don't really know a whole lot about. But I remember hearing people ... like everyone's talking about the Kardashians. I'd never watched the Kardashians, or Keeping up with the Kardashians, but I just know that everyone hated them. Like hated them. I was like, "What can the Kardashians possibly be doing that everyone hates this much?" So I just watched an episode and it just like some people just living their lives. I had a theory in my mind that the reason people really disliked them is because they felt like the Kardashians had something that they wanted, that they felt like they deserved more than they did. Does that make sense?
James: Oh yes.
Bob: So they think to themselves, how are they rich and famous? I could be rich and famous. I'm just as pretty as she is. My mom's just as crazy as her mom is. My sisters are also pretty, they can be models. They feel like the Kardashians have something that they deserve. That the person thinks that they deserve more than the Kardashians deserve it. Or the idea of saying, "Well she's untalented or she's not this," even though it's completely subjective. Even though on a subconscious level, they don't realize they think they deserve more than Kim does, they do feel that way. And I could fully be wrong.
Dylan: Yeah I mean, I think with the Kardashians, there's something really interesting about the bandwagon of hate that can happen, right. It's an easy bandwagon to jump on.
Bob: It's because people feel like they don't deserve what they have for whatever ... they're just like, "They just don't deserve it," and everyone's like, "Well why though?" They're just like, "They just don't."
Dylan: I think that's part of it. I also think there is ... Bob I think you said this before too, but the ease with which they have attained this. I don't know the Kardashians. I can't speak on their behalf, but I don't know that it was easy to attain this. I think that there is work that we don't see behind the camera (INAUDIBLE JAMES CROSSTALK)
James: I'll be honest, they probably do a lot of work. I think it's less ease, it's more luck.
Dylan: But even still, it's so funny that there is this one public family that we can all, even casually, throw in an opinion about.
James: --Yeah--
Dylan: --and throw in our own theories about. Which itself is this interesting thing about fame. And this interesting thing about, do we have the right to criticize people just because we see them in a public medium? I think things like social media that literally encourage us. You log on. It says,
James: --Yeah--
Dylan: --"What's on your mind?" "What's happening?" Right? And what's happening is a ton of thoughts that are going through your mind all the time, and there is a mechanism to publish those fleeting thoughts all the time. James, you said that you didn't even remember writing this Tweet, right?
James: No. Not at all. I didn't think anyone else did. Yeah.
Dylan: That's interesting to me. I mean, Bob, have you ever watched a reality show and then publicly criticized someone you saw in it?
Bob: I mean this going to sound really hilarious, but yeah. Rupaul's Drag Race. (LAUGHTER) I mean it was my favorite TV show. I don't think I've ever said something along the lines of, "I really don't like this person," but I have said things along ... For example, I was on a show on World of Wonder called Fashion Photo Review.
James: Oh yeah.
Bob: What they do is they bring up people's outfits and you say whether or not you like them, or if you don't like them. But I don't know that I've ever ... outside of some extremely shady ... honestly, for me to ... I wouldn't normally attack someone's character unless I felt that they made a transgression against the black community, the queer community, or the trans community, or any maligned culture. It's usually attacking what they said, instead of saying," This person is a ...
James: Yeah--
Bob: --I don't like this person." But I have said, "I don't like work that people have done."
James: May I ask a question to you, Bob?
Bob: Of course.
James: So was this the same before you, I'm going to say, got famous, or after Drag Race? Before you were a name.
Bob: I don't know to be honest. I don't know that I've ever said, "I don't like a person," based off of something I saw from television, but I have said, "I don't like this movie." "I don't like this dress." "I didn't think this was funny." "This makeup doesn't do it for me." But I don't --
James: Oh yeah--
Bob: --know that I've ever ... and maybe I have, but off the top of my head, I can't recall saying that I don't like person, based off of their performances.
Dylan: When you saw Bob walk into the workroom, saw him be super confident, and if we're applying the same theory we kind of Scotch Tapped together about the Kardashians of we're seeing something we feel is too easily won, was there something that you felt, I could do that?
James: No. Not at all. I don't think I could do it at all. (LAUGHTER) No, I think I'm very realistic about ... I'd be the girl that came in with some kind of shit 10-pound outfit. I'd be sent home first immediately. This Tweet was done two years back, so I was in a really dark place. I was a long quite a lot. A lot of time, I'd just be Tweeting to the air. Just all my negativity getting it out there, being ignored. My God.
Dylan: I think that's interesting, only because I think a lot of us can relate to that. That when we're in a lower place, it's when we are more inclined to kind of post.
Bob: --Maybe perform outside of our moral compass.
Dylan: Yes, Bob. That is the perfect way to say it.
James: Ooh, yes. Love that.
Dylan: When we're in a lower place, like Bob said, we perform outside of our moral compass. Well we all do it differently, but I'm curious how it manifests for you. If this is okay with you, what does that lower place look like for you and how does it manifest on social media?
James: Oh okay. Yeah, you can ask me any question of mental health. I'd say, especially for me in my low place, I felt I was completely alone. I'd just gotten out of a really quite horrible relationship. People who I thought were supposed to support me weren't being supportive. I was coming to the realization of my childhood, my adolescence and what it actually was, how it was going to effect me in the future. I was using, like I said, just Tweeting to the air. Just as a way to speak my mind as such. I'd say at the time I was looking for someone to respond. I wasn't expecting anyone to, but I was thinking, come on, come on, someone agree. Someone give me follows. Someone prove I'm actually worth something, which as we know, or should know, is complete bullshit. Social media and self-worth are completely different things.
Bob: Well I guess the idea of wanting to know that someone thinks the way you think, that doesn't sound crazy.
Dylan: That doesn't sound crazy.
Bob: Sometimes you're like, "I can't be the only one thinking this. Someone else has to feel the same way I feel."
James: Yeah. I think that's a good thing about social media, but I wouldn't say at that time, that was my attitude. My attitude was I just want the likes. I want the followers. I want to ... I don't want to say it like this, but be somebody. I have issue with it now because I don't agree with that whatsoever now but--
Dylan: Sorry, you said, "Be somebody?"
James: Yeah. Yeah, at time, which is quite upsetting to hear actually.
Bob: Well we change.
Dylan: Yeah, we change, but also why is it upsetting to hear?
James: It's just because something that I see a lot on Twitter in a lot of people. You can tell they're all so concerned about themselves and it's almost like their anxiety's coming through, but they're self-doubting themself a lot, and they're just trying so hard to get these follower counts because they think that without it, they're not worth anything. I think that can be very toxic about social media. You compare yourself to other people. You think, why am I not this other person? Why am I not getting all these likes? Why am I not this beautiful, kind of thing.
Bob: Well can I say too-
James: Yeah go ahead.
Bob: There is a negative connotation in the world where people say, "Well he just wants attention." --
James: Ooh--
Bob: --Or, "So and so just wants attention." I personally don't think there's anything wrong with wanting attention. We have come to this place in the world where folks are like, "Don't give him attention. He just wants attention." It's like, "I'm not asking for drugs. I'm not asking for money. I'm just asking for attention." Sometimes you want to be seen. To be seen is not a bad thing, and sometimes you need to be seen more than normal. I personally don't think asking for attention is a bad thing. I think you have to ask yourself why you're asking for attention, and that is up to the person to decide in themselves if they're asking for attention for bad reasons. But I don't think that asking for attention is a bad thing. I was also saying too, you said you were in a low place. Sometimes when we don't hold ourselves in a high regard, then we don't hold ourselves to very high standards. If we think lowly of ourselves then our actions are lowly, and if we think highly of ourselves we start to behave in a place more aligned with what we think is right.
James: Yeah. I think that's true.
Bob: But to want attention or to want to be seen, I don't think that's a bad thing.
Dylan: I not only don't think that's a bad thing, I think it's an incredibly natural, human thing.
James: Oh yeah--
Dylan: It is just something we want and it makes total sense that it's something you particularly and especially want when you're in a low spot.
James: Yeah, basically everyone just wants to be loved at the end of the day. Literally everybody.
Dylan: I can tell you James, that I feel ... I have had pockets of really low feelings recently. Don't worry, I'm totally okay, but-
James: Oh, happy to hear that.
Dylan: ... I'm just saying I think the self that I put out into the world is really just the curated high images, but I too know the feeling of comparing myself to people, wanting to be somebody. Wanting to be somebody is not this thing that necessarily stops for people. I create these huge narratives about colleagues who for some reason don't follow me back. I project onto them and I project these ... Is it something I've done wrong? I'm not good enough for them. I really don't believe that social media is a bad thing. It is a many textured thing. But I don't know, this is a long-winded way of just saying I totally feel that too, and it manifests in me.
James: Yeah--
Dylan: Yeah, I don't know. I just wanted to say I recognize that.
Bob: [crosstalk] I also found that. Go ahead, James.
James: Oh I was just going to say, you mentioned this follow back thing. That's something that I ... because I see a lot of people put the #FollowBack stuff on social media. That to me, I have a massive issue with, because I just don't think that something you should particularly care about. Followers, if you're getting paid for it, or your career depends on it, that's great. For my attitude, if they don't follow back, it's because they don't want me on their timeline. That's fine. It has nothing to do with me. Go on. What Bob?
Bob: Then again, I said, "It's all based off what your own opinion of what is a bad thing." If you're creating work, you want people to see it. You're not creating it just ... I can only speak of myself. When I create stuff, it's because I want people to see it.
Dylan: Oh, same.
Bob: So if I want you to follow me back, it's because I genuinely want you to see what I'm creating. I want a lot of people to see what I'm creating. I was very, very lucky to be on a television show that helped me get a lot of followers on social media,
James: Yeah, yeah.
Bob: so I don't have to ask for followers anymore. But there was a time before social media, I think before I was on Drag Race, I think I had 10000 Instagram followers. Which seems like a lot, but for me now, it's not a lot compared to people in my industry, you know what I mean? Now I have over a million, but when I didn't have that, it was like it would be to know that more people are seeing what I'm creating, because in theory I'm really not creating this stuff for myself. I'm creating it for other people to see. For me, I don't think it is strange to want people to see what you're doing. It's just another way of saying, "I really want to know that someone is seeing what I'm doing." Because if you were sitting in a room alone by yourself, you wouldn't be doing it. You know what I mean?
James: Yeah.
Bob: What you doing well and what you want to present it to the world are two different things.
James: I see what you're saying. You're putting your work out because you want people to see it. Me on social media, I'm not doing it to put my work out, because I don't think I'm created anything other than doing work. I'm literally putting it just to dick around and have some fun. I'm doing it for me. I don't tend to think when I Tweet. I don't think when I like something either. I just do it. I think life's full of different perspectives though.
Dylan: James, you were just saying that you were just dicking around and you don't really care, but that does contradict what you've also said, which is that when you Tweeted the Tweet that brought us on this call together, you actually were hoping for someone to interact with it. Do you know what I mean?
James: Yeah.
Dylan: I think that is the paradox of social media, right. We can say, and we can even tell ourselves, "Oh this is just me dicking around, it doesn't really mean anything," but there is also that ... I don't know, is that what a paradox is guys? Am I fucking up the definition here?
James: Oh--
Dylan: The definition of paradox?
James: Yeah, paradox is slightly like ... this is a bit like a Catch 22 (INAUDIBLE) Yeah.
Dylan: Okay great. Pretend I didn't say. Pretend I said the right word, and you're going to just be like, "Wow Dylan. What a fucking amazing point."
Bob: You're just so articulate.
Dylan: It's so articulate honey. Anyway, but so there's (LAUGHTER) that tightrope we walk on social media of--
James: Yeah Yeah
Dylan: --thinking no one will see it, but kind of hoping everyone will see at the same time.
James: Oh I can get that. Yeah.
Bob: But now we're getting to see a lot behind that, and we--
James: That's true
Bob: see a Tweet like, "I really, really, really don't like Bob The Drag Queen," my first thought is, well here's a hater. There's a hater. Hey everyone, look at the hater. But what we have to realize is even haters, and by the way we're all haters, have fully complex lives that ... a life that extended way before this Tweet. A life that will hopefully extend past this Tweet, that built ... everything in your life up to that Tweet, that Tweet was a culmination of everything you've experienced up until that Tweet. So it's not just one moment that happened in a vacuum. Now were getting to see a little bit of the buildup as opposed to just being like, "Oh, that's just some hater." You know what I mean?
Dylan: Yeah.
James: Can I ask a quick question to you Bob?
Bob: Yeah, go ahead.
James: So when you see these hater Tweets as you call them, what is your initial reaction and do you just cancel out like, "Oh it's a hater. Means nothing to me," or ... well how do you think of that?
Bob: Well it depends on the craftsmanship of the Tweet. Some of them are really funny.
James: --Oh yeah yeah--
Bob: --If it's really funny, I'll probably laugh at it and I share with my friends--
James: yeah--
Bob: I will say, even professional critics, when the professional critic writes a review of a movie, the review says more about the critic than it does about the movie.
James: Oh, yeah. That's very true.
Bob: But sometimes they do hurt. Sometimes I'll get one and I'll be like, "Wow. That was really uncalled for and really unnecessarily mean."
Dylan: Do you think there is something inherently toxic about the Drag Race community of watchers?
James: Ooh. Bob you can take this one.
Bob: Is there something? The short answer to your question is yes. There is something inherently toxic in the viewership of Drag Race, but there's also something inherently beautiful and uplifting and celebratory as well. I mean there's a duality to everything. The Rupaul's Drag Race fandom is not just all bubblegums and rainbows, and it's not all torches and pitchforks. You know what I mean? But you watch this show and you get really invested in the people you're invested in, and if that person doesn't win, it feels like you lost. It feels like you had a lot in this race as well. Let's say you were rooting for Katya and then she didn't win, then you think to yourself, how can we atone for this? So you atone for it by going to her shows. You atone for it ... some people atone for it by donating to her Kickstarter. Some people buy her merchandise. Some people go to her show. Some people just and give the girl that beat her a lot of hate, and they think that is atoning.
James: Yeah
Bob: It's also a lot cheaper than buying a shirt. (RAUCOUS LAUGHTER)
Dylan: Bob! (LAUGHTER)
Bob: I mean calling Alaska a bitch is way cheaper than buying a fucking Katya shirt. Her shirts are fucking expensive.
Dylan: Drag her. Yeah. No, and I mean I just want it to be clear that when I asked this question, I absolutely think that the positive of Rupaul's Drag Race.
(BOTH GUESTS MUMBLING: YEAH)
Dylan: so outrageously outweighs the bad.
James: Yeah
Dylan: But when I even talk about the fandom, the fandom itself I see as also overwhelmingly positive.
Bob: Yes. I agree.
Dylan: I think it's just we focus on the negative.
James: I see that too.
Dylan: That's why I was curious.
Bob: It's because whoever's something different, that person ... if everyone is chanting, "Oatmeal. Oatmeal. Oatmeal." If everyone's doing that, but one person yells, "Spoon!" That is what comes through, because everyone else is saying, "Oatmeal," and one person yelled, "Spoon." So all you can focus on is that one-
Dylan: Is the spoon.
Bob: ... idiot who yelled, "Spoon."
Dylan: But you don't talk to randomperson74 who was chanting oatmeal like why were you chanting oatmeal?
Bob: You don't talk to the oatmeal person. You talk to the spoon person. Then the spoon person becomes, then it seems like there's more spoon people than there, when it's fully just one guy yelling, "Spoon."
Dylan: Yes. Yes. Yeah.
James: I see what you've got. Yeah.
Dylan: Previously I incorrectly identified this idea on my show as synecdoche, which is a poetic term for a part signifying a whole, but what I actually think it is, is metonymy, right. Which is when-
James: I'm going to have to Google that one quickly. Metonymy.
Dylan: Well Metonymy--
Bob: (INAUDIBLE CROSSTALK) to signifying a whole.
Dylan: Yeah signifying a whole.
Bob: I'm sorry. I can't help myself. (LAUGHTER)
Dylan: No honey, you're good. (LAUGHTER) But so it signifies a whole. That's what my marriage vows were. So okay, wait. Back on track.
Bob: You have a great laugh, James.
Dylan: Yeah, look at that. What you love yourself for James, is affirmed.
James: Yeah, yeah. Thank you. Thank you.
Dylan: Anyway, metonymy is this-
Bob: I'll Google while you ...
Dylan: Yeah, google ... So no, it's just this idea, (LAUGHTER) it's like in Spanish, the way we say everyone, is we say, "Todo el mundo," right, which means all of the world. And so what happens is we are prone to exaggeration. What does metonymy mean babe?
Bob: I accidentally looked up monotony, and I was like, "Honey that is not ... "
Dylan: Yeah, honey not that girl.
Bob: I was like, "That doesn't sound ... " Metonymy.
Dylan: M-E-T-O-N-Y-M-Y.
James: Oh M-E. M-E.
Dylan: M-E, yeah.
Bob: Metonymy.
James: I've got the definition, do you want it?
Dylan: Okay, great. James, take us there.
James: So it says, "A figure of speech in which the name of one object or concept is used for that of another, to which it is related." That didn't help me at all. Jesus Christ.
Dylan: Well okay, so this is-
Bob: Okay so I have meto ...
Dylan: Metonymy.
Bob: It keeps showing monotony. I can't.
Dylan: Honey. Well your phone is cursed. So I think what that means is when you say, "Nice wheels," and you're referring to the car.
James: Oh, okay. Okay. So it's like saying one thing to refer to a whole other thing. Okay.
Dylan: Yeah. I don't know. Anyway, I need to figure out if it's metonymy or synecdoche, because I'm very confused by those things. Either way, let me just take us-
Bob: Let's just go to Schenectady. (LAUGHTER)
Dylan: So Schenectady, New York, look up the word synecdoche, and then feel monotonous and look up the word metonymy. Yes. That's what we'll do.
Bob: That one was really good.
James: That was good.
Dylan: Well, queening here for you. Okay wait, the point I'm trying to get is that it's a forced perspective. If you've ever seen a TV set in real life, it's so much smaller than you think. It's this-
GUESTS REACT: Ohh/Yeah.
Dylan: … forced perspective of, oh if you actually adjust some angels, it looks like this huge, cavernous space, when really it's this small space. That's the same thing that's happening when, as you mentioned, "Everyone hates-
James: Yeah
Dylan: … me." Or, "I'm getting a ton of haters." You're actually not getting a ton of haters. You are getting a number of haters. I feel the same exact thing with ... That psychology is what formed this show, right?
James: Yeah.
Dylan: I was getting so much more love, but it's so hard to ignore your ... Bob what you said, "The people chanting, 'Spoon,'" right. You focus on the spoon, because it makes you feel a certain way. I think there is worthwhile stuff to be talking about, about what it says about self-worth.
Bob: It might also be what each of those things ways. If I think that someone agreeing with you, I know this is going to sound terrible, but it weighs less than negativity. You don't need as much negativity to have the same effect as the positive. You need a lot of positivity. I mean negativity is like vanilla extract. You only need a teeny weeny amount to affect the taste of the entire meal, whereas positivity is like flour. You need three cups of flour, but just a ...
Dylan: Tiny ...
Bob: Yes, of vanilla extract and the whole is ruined.
Dylan: Yeah. No, that's so ...
Bob: You tip that bottle over and you're like, "We got to start over."
Dylan: Yes, honey.
Bob: "This whole cake is ruined."
Dylan: "It's too much."
Bob: That was a great metaphor.
Dylan: (INDISCERNIBLE CROSSTALK: That was such a good metaphor). I'm so, so proud of you. I'm going to quote you on that.
Bob: I'm also very good at making metaphors. I'm very proud of my metaphors
Dylan: Well good.
Bob: My metaphor game is on point henny
Dylan: Yes, queen. So, yeah. Anyways this is interesting, in how we perceive things and what we call hate, right. Like as you know, this podcast is called Conversations with People Who Hate Me, and it's not literal hate, but when you're just getting it anonymously, it feels like hate, right. Even though you literally didn't use the word hate in your Tweet James, it can feel like hate when you read it.
James: Oh, well I mean you have to ask Bob to find that one out. Yeah.
Bob: Well I haven't actually ready it. I just had Dylan say it to me a lot of times.
Dylan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. What if it's all a ruse? James has never wrote anything? He's never heard of Drag Race.
Bob: Show me the Tweet. Because this comment was so mild
James: Yeah--
Bob: --compared to some of the ones I've gotten, it was one that if I saw it, I might respond either something snarky or I wouldn't respond at all.
James: I'd expect to not respond at all. I mean as you said, it's not a particularly, I'm going to say spicy Tweet, because I can't think of the word I'm looking for ...
Bob: I think it's metonymy. I think the word you're looking for is metonymy.
Dylan: Yeah. It's monotony for sure. Yeah. Well let's use the word spicy. There's not a punch to it.
James: Yeah, that's the word I'm looking for. Yeah.
Dylan: Its just-
Bob: A soft slap.
Dylan: It's just a soft slap, but still I think it could be classified still as, "Oh, I'm getting a lot of hate online."
James: Well I mean it is direct negativity, isn't it?
Dylan: Yeah. Yeah.
James: It depends on how the person takes it, really.
Dylan: Exactly. So we've covered a ton of ground here. We've covered self-worth. We've covered confidence. We've covered how we are enabled to criticize celebrities. We've talked about celebrity culture. We've talked about queer culture. We've talked about Drag Race culture. When I spoke to you guys individually, I asked you to tell me your perception of the other person, and I'm curious how that's changed. So James, I want to start with you. Has your perception of Bob changed at all since being on this call?
James: Well as I've been on and spoke to you, I've tried to give you the perception of what I would've felt two years ago, which wasn't particularly good things. Coming into this call, hands down, I had no expectations. I was like, I have no idea how he's going to speak. Judging on, I've heard you speak a bit on politics, I'm like, "Okay, he's going to know his shit, that's for sure." Perception now, I think you're very easy to talk to, Bob. I think you clearly know what you're talking about.
Bob: (QUIET CROSSTALK: Oh, thank you)
James: And what I like about you is, like me, you laugh at your own jokes. I really like that. (LAUGHTER, CROSSTALK)
Bob: If I don't think I'm funny, how can I expect anyone else to laugh at my jokes? (LAUGHTER CONTINUES)
Dylan: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
James: I completely agree with that.
Bob: They say, "If you can't laugh at your own jokes, how the hell you going to laugh at anybody else's." Can I get an amen up in here?
James: Amen!
Dylan: At the end of the Bob The Drag Queen Show, that's what the sign off line will be. Bob, how has your ... I know you didn't have any real idea of who James was, you just knew a first name and you knew a Tweet, but has your perception changed at all of him?
Bob: Not a whole lot. I mean I didn't say it before, but I've always had a theory that hurt people hurt people, and James said that he was a hurt people at the time.
James: I am one hurt person. Yeah. (LAUGHTER)
Bob: (LAUGHTER: Yeah, you were one hurt people. Take one hurt people and call me in the morning.) This confirmed that, but I do see now that James doesn't have ill will towards me or he doesn't still feel those ways. I'm just happy that I got a chance to hear the thought process of someone who might say something negative about me online.
James: Oh, I'm very happy you listened, because it's always fun to talk about yourself, isn't it?
Dylan: Yeah. It is.
Bob: It is and it's always good to hear about people too.
Dylan: It is good to hear about people.
Bob: I mean we really ask questions so that people ask us back. You know what I mean?
Dylan: Yeah, yeah.
Bob: "How was your day? Oh wait, you want to know how mine was too? Thanks for asking? (LAUGHTER)
Dylan: Exactly. Are there any final things you guys want to say to each other?
James: I just want to say I've had the best time. This has been fantastic.
Dylan: Oh, I'm so glad.
Bob: Yeah, this was really fun for me to have this discussions. I'm also grateful to Dylan for having me. I just really enjoyed to be on a podcast I listen to (LAUGHTER) all the time. I wonder if I'll listen to this episode. I feel like it will be weird to listen to the episode--
Dylan: --No, you will. You will.
Bob: Yeah, you got me red-handed. Red-handed!
Dylan: No I mean I love doing this show so much. I truly do. I say this frequently on the show, but I love these calls, but in the most serious way, I truly feel better about the world after we hang up on a phone call.
James: That's lovely. That's really nice, isn't it? Yeah.
Dylan: I really, really do. It just feels good, and this is no exception. I think it's really fascinating to hear someone who wrote a totally fleeting judgment, somewhat innocuous judgment, and then connect with the person they said it about and ... I don't know ...
James: What I will say is I mean I told you this many times, I was so surprised when you sent me this, "Do you remember you Tweeted this two years back?" What? Not at all. Who would have known that this little gay boy's thoughts would be on this podcast at some point? What I've really enjoyed is thinking back to myself two years back and thinking, Jesus Christ, you're a completely different person aren't you?
Dylan: And you feel you've changed?
James: I feel I've changed for the best.
Dylan: Good.
James: I've also noticed I'm a pretty negative person deep down, but I think I always knew that, so that's okay isn't it?
Dylan: Do you think you're still a negative person?
James: I think I focus on the positivity now. I think inherently I can be pretty negative, but I just think that's being a person, isn't it?
Dylan: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Bob: Focus on the spoon.
Dylan: Yeah, focus on the spoon.
James: Focus on the spoon. Yeah.
Bob: Focus on the spoon.
Dylan: And I think that's more an inevitability of human psychology than it is this thing that is inherent about us, right. Or that makes us (CROSSTALK)--
Bob: --You've been diagnosed with the human condition.
Dylan: Yes, yes, yes. James, sorry to say man.
Bob: You're a full-blown human.
Dylan: Yes, full-blown human all over your body.
Bob: I love it.
Dylan: Well anyway, I really do appreciate both of you doing this. Bob, when you first reached out and were interested in doing it, I was like, "Totally." I think you're amazing and I was honored to do this with you, and James, it's really be so nice getting to know you through this process. I think you're so sweet and wonderful.
James: Same with you two.
Dylan: Yeah, please ... Thank you guys and feel free to chime in with anything else you want to say to close out.
Bob: It's been lovely. Thank you for spending this time with us.
Dylan: Of course.
James: All I can say Bob, is I've really, really, really--
New Speaker: [INSTRUMENTAL THEME MUSIC PLAYS].
James: --enjoyed my time with you.
Dylan: Ooh, nice twist.
James: I've turned completely around now. Oh no. God no.
Dylan: Oh no, it's perfect.
Bob: Some full 360 henny.
Dylan: Well will all see each other on the internet. Sound good?
James: Can't wait.
Dylan: Okay.
Bob: Peace, homie.
Dylan: Okay. Bye.
[Phone call ends with a hang up sound. The drumbeat from ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals kicks in.]
Dylan [VOICEOVER CLOSING CREDITS]: If you'd like to be a guest on this show, please visit www.conversationswithpeoplewhohateme.com for more information.
Conversations with People Who Hate Me is a production of Night Vale Presents. Vincent Cacchione is the sound engineer and mixer. Christy Gressman is the executive producer. The theme song is These Dark Times, by Caged Animals. The brand new logo was designed by Phillip Blackowl, with the photo by Mindy Tucker, and this podcast was created, produced and hosted by me, Dylan Marron.
Special thanks to Adam Cecil and our publicist, Megan Larson.
We'll be releasing episodes every other week, so I will see you in two weeks with a brand new conversation.
Until then, remember: there is a human on the other side of the screen.
[Chorus of ‘These Darks Times’ by Caged Animals plays.]