EPISODE 28: HYPOCRITE
Dylan: And that is what changed me. That is what made me no longer ever want to do anything like that again.
Jesse: Are you saying I changed you?
[Instrumental of ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals begins to play.]
Dylan [VOICEOVER INTRODUCTION]: Hey. And welcome back to Conversations with People Who Hate Me, the show where I use negative online interactions as a starting point for offline conversations. I'm your host, Dylan Marron.
Today I'm speaking to a man named Jesse. But this time the roles are reversed. In this conversation I'm the one owning up to something I've done on the internet that I'm not proud of.
Some background.
A few years ago I was working for a digital television network. And in my time there, I made a lot of videos that satirically talked about social issues. Some of them have been the catalyst for comments discussed on this podcast. Now every so often I was given the opportunity to go out into the world and film a field piece where I could interview real humans, rather than simply comedically commenting on intangible ideas in the studio. So, as the 2016 presidential campaign was in full swing, I wanted to comment on the hot button topic of political correctness, specifically my take that those against PC culture were only against it because they wanted to freely disrespect marginalized groups.
Now of course this take isn't revolutionary now, and it wasn't revolutionary then. But I was so determined to make this point that I traveled with a crew to a Trump rally in central Pennsylvania a few weeks before the 2016 election to film a field piece called The Burden of PC Culture, where I would interview Trump supporters about why they didn't like political correctness.
Now did I and do I profoundly disagree with their choice in 2016 candidate? Absolutely. But was it fair to go there in search of soundbites to prove a point I had already settled on making without getting to know them as three dimensional people? In retrospect I think maybe not.
Satire clearly has an important place in political discourse. It can be a really useful tool to bring more people into a conversation and speak truth to power in an accessible way. And I made a lot of other videos in those years that I believe used satire intelligently. But this one feels different. Because I went to that rally not to genuinely test my hypothesis, but to prove it. And I wasn't doing this with intangible ideas but with actual real human people. And one of those people I interviewed at that rally is a man named Jesse.
After that piece was released online, Jesse was upset to learn that his interview was used satirically. A few months later when I tweeted about being trolled online, a term I no longer use, Jesse responded that I was a hypocrite because I had once trolled him. I ignored his tweet because I was kind of ashamed that maybe he had a point. I didn't hear from him again for a long time.
Then recently I was interviewed on PBS and spoke about this very podcast. Jesse came across a clip of that show and once again responded that I was a hypocrite. This time rather than feeling ashamed, I reached out to him with an invitation to come on this show. He accepted.
Today's episode brings up some uncomfortable questions for me. In my quest to fight for social justice through satirical videos, did I unfairly hurt someone in the process? And if I did, how can I own up to that without compromising my own beliefs? Does apologizing to someone with very different political leanings mean I'm conceding to those political leanings? Well, I'll let you decide for yourself.
This conversation is a really beautiful one. It begins by rehashing how we met, but then quickly evolves into a conversation about art and how we find our artistic voices. I hope you listen all the way through.
There's a mantra I created for myself as I make this show. It's “empathy is not endorsement.” And when I say it, I basically mean that we can see someone's humanity without cosigning everything they stand for politically. And if we believe that, can we also believe that apology is not concession?
Well, let's see. Here is Jesse.
[Phone rings. Music fades. Guest picks up.]
Jesse: Hello?
Dylan: Hey. It's Dylan.
Jesse: Hey, Dylan.
Dylan: Hey.
Jesse: Hey. How are you doing, brother?
Dylan: I'm good. How are you?
Jesse: I'm good, man. Hold on. Hold on one second, bro.
Dylan: Sure.
Jesse: One second.
Dylan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fine.
Jesse: Hold on one second.
Dylan: No, that's fine.
Jesse: Dylan, are you there?
Dylan: Yeah.
Jesse: All right, man. Well, this is Jesse.
Dylan: Hey, Jesse. It's nice to re-meet you after we met a little while ago. And of course we'll get into the nature of that meeting on this phone call, which I would love to hear how it went for you, and how you feel ...
Jesse: Sure.
Dylan: ... about it, and how you felt about it. And of course I welcome your honest feelings and all of that stuff. But I guess because of the nature of how we met last time, I'm going to hold off on doing the release so you can decide if you feel comfortable with how this went.
Jesse: Okay, Dylan. Sounds good, man. I appreciate it.
Dylan: Okay, great. So, Jesse ...
Jesse: Hey, Dylan. There's a funky ... I mean something is happening. I want to try to move to a different place in the house real quick, just while we're on the phone, and see if it clears up. I think it will, but just making sure ...
Dylan: I hear you perfectly for what it's worth. But I'm ...
Jesse: I'm hearing like a wah, wah wah weird thing.
Dylan: I might be getting weird feedback. Hold on one second.
Jesse: I was just watching your TED Talk and a few things, man. I think you do a very good job.
Dylan: Oh, my God. Thank you for watching the TED Talk. Are you still getting a weird feedback right now?
Jesse: It doesn't seem like it as much, man.
Dylan: Okay, great. So, here, let's at least start here, so that we're on the same page and we at least get to narrate it together to each other. But you and I met two and a half years ago. It was a Trump rally a few weeks before the election of 2016. So, what brought you there?
Jesse: It sounded like kind of an exciting thing to do, kind of a decent way to spend my day, a fun, interesting way to spend my day. I drove about an hour and a half from my house and went to a Trump rally, which is where I saw you and your crew outside. And we kind of ... we exchanged some information, we had a little talk.
Dylan: Yeah. And the reason I went to that rally is that I was working for this no longer existing but former digital television network that was trying to find its voice, as admittedly I was trying to find my own voice. And I wanted to go to the Trump rally to film this satirical field piece that I had been wanting to film, which was a piece called The Burden of Political Correctness.
Jesse: Correct, correct.
Dylan: And so, I met you at the rally, and you were super friendly. And so, I wanted to interview you. And you felt somewhat misled by what the piece was. And then, you saw the piece, and you were upset with it, right?
Jesse: In a way. I was ... I thought it was funny, to be honest. I had lunch with my girlfriend, and she was like, she told me that some video of me at a Trump rally was circulating between her and her friends. And she was pretty much disgusted. Now me, thinking that's funny, I actually thought it ... I looked at it. I was like, well, I look like shit in that Trump hat. (DYLAN LAUGHTER) But aside from that, I thought ... I used this line that the first rule of being a Trump supporter is you don't talk about being a Trump supporter. And that's how you opened the segment. I actually thought it was witty. I thought it was funny. And when I was at that rally, I had half a notion that, I was like, I'm not going to say anything to these folks that they can use against me just in ... And I saw it. And I remembered it very clearly, what happened. And I remembered you. I thought you were a very cool-looking dude with a cool haircut. (DYLAN LAUGHTER) Me and you had talked about ... You had tried to basically kind of bait me into acting like the reason why political correctness is not good is because we should just be able to kind of call anybody anything and be mean to people. And I remember telling you, I said, well actually that's not it at all. I said, me being against political correctness had more to do with being able to have a conversation about certain things and not immediately being labeled. That was the power of non-PC behavior.
Dylan: So, I mean the big thing that I always was focused on when I made field pieces, especially with people who I politically disagreed with, was I never wanted to mince their words and I never wanted to take it out of context. I just wanted to add my own commentary to it. But one thing that I just want to admit to is you said ... you said that I baited you into saying something. And I hate that you're using that word. But what I hate more is that you are ...
Jesse: I'm sorry.
Dylan: ... accurate. No, no, no. What I hate most is that you're accurate about using that word. I don't feel proud of that. And I'm being vulnerable by admitting that. I really do not like that I did that. And I do not like that you are ... your word choice is correct. I also felt ... I felt scared at that rally. I thought it was a mistake that I was even there.
Jesse: Why did you feel scared, Dylan?
Dylan: Because I was around a lot of people I didn't know. And I think I was very nervous about ...Um. I didn't like that I was coming there with a camera to make a satirical field piece. Ya know? And I felt uncomfortable. I felt very much out of my element. I didn't feel like I was around people who were definitely not like-minded. But it wasn't even ... it was people who were more supportive of-
Jesse: But I think right there Dylan--Dylan, I think right there is possibly stereotypical thought patterns on your part. I'm a Trump supporter because I think he's shaking up the system. And he's endlessly entertaining to me. And I totally feel your vibe. And I understand that you felt scared, and you have your own experiences that would bring that out. But to me, that seems unfounded. Being you, it's like just ... Because those people were supposedly not like-minded to you. I mean, I'm kind of like-minded to you. Me and you probably think similarly.
Dylan: Well, but whatever discomfort I felt at the time was not because of you.
Jesse: Got it.
Dylan: There's a difference between feeling scared of a large group of people versus an individual. I'm talking about the mass of people who supported a person and political ideology that I was and am very opposed to.
Jesse: But what aspect of you did you feel that they would sniff out and expose and maybe make you unsafe? Was it your political affiliations?
Dylan: Yes.
Jesse: Was it that fact that you're gay?
Dylan: Yes. I understand that there are people who identify as certain minority groups who are Trump supporters, right? It's not that, right? It's I have very different political beliefs, profoundly different political beliefs. I was out of my element. That's the, I know, less elegant way to say it.
Jesse: Yeah, I get it. I get it.
Dylan: But I felt deeply out of my element. And I was coming from a place where I was profoundly out of my element, right? I was coming from New York City in my job, where we all politically agreed with each other. Do you know what I mean?
Jesse: I do. I don't feel that you were actually unsafe there. But that's just me saying that. You very well could have been unsafe there. But I do understand how you could feel that way.
Dylan: Yeah. And I so appreciate you saying that. So, I guess what I want to admit to is what I felt guilty about was that I went into this rally, and I really wanted to make this kind of pre-scripted satirical piece that I had ... and this is the big thing, I had already decided what I wanted to say with the piece, which is very different from what I do now. And honestly I believe that this podcast grew out of the seed that was planted within me in that rally. Because when I left that rally I was like, I never want to do this again.
Jesse: Oh wow.
Dylan: I never, ever, ever want to go into ... And I also want to be super clear. This does not mean by any means that that rally turned me into a Trump supporter. Quite the opposite. But I never, ever, ever want to ...
Jesse: The empathy is not ...
Dylan: What was that? I didn't hear you.
Jesse: Oh, I said, you have a saying that is empathy is not endorsement or something like that.
Dylan: Yes. Exactly. And I was thinking of you, right? And I was thinking of people like you. And it's like, no, I'm not taking their words out of context. I'm presenting the words as they said them. But I don't like that I came into this rally with a pre-scripted idea of what I wanted them to say.
Jesse: Mmm-hmm.
Dylan: And that I just felt so uncomfortable. Yeah, sorry, you first.
Jesse: I'm sorry.
Dylan: No, you're fine.
Jesse: Oh, I'm sorry. It's the cell phone rhythm is kind of weird
Dylan: (LAUGHTER) No, it's all right.
Jesse: So, I just want to make it clear that I don't really care that you made the tape. I don't care that I was kind of duped. To be honest, half of me goes, okay, don't say anything really dumb here because these people honestly might use it against you. That was in the back of my mind a little bit. So, I was playing it cool, not taking the bait in a sense. I mean first of all my thought was, that mother fucker, (LAUGHTER) he thinks that I can't find his show and know who he is, and that maybe Trump supporters aren't smart enough to have podcasts of their own. So, I friended you or something on Twitter, I followed you. And at some point I saw you in what I viewed as kind of playing the victim from online hate, which is your new podcast, People that Hate Me. And I remember thinking, what a hypocrite. What a hypocrite. He took my words, tried to make a mockery out of me, didn't succeed in my opinion, and he's playing the victim. So, it got my blood not boiling but it got me a little hot, thinking about it.
Dylan: It got you upset. Yeah.
Jesse: And so, I hit you with the text. And then, you hit me back. And it's been all good.
Dylan: Yeah, no, I mean the only thing I disagree with is that, at that time when my videos were super popular, I was getting tons of hate messages, tons of hate messages ...
Jesse: Oh, were you?
Dylan: ... every day. And so, it's not that I was trying to paint myself as the victim. And what I'm trying to own up to now, on this call with you, and what I'm trying to reconcile with, is the fact that I feel uncomfortable with the fact that I went to a Trump rally and went in with a preconceived notion of how that was going to go. I had a script, and I used that script. And I expected you to respond to me in the context of that script. And that is what changed me. That is what made me no longer ever want to do anything like that again.
Jesse: Are you saying I changed you? Is that what you're saying?
Dylan: (LAUGHTER) I'm saying that experience changed me.
Jesse: Oh, okay.
Dylan: And I'm also saying ... But you're part of that experience. So, let's loop you into that. Come on. Let's give you the credit.
Jesse: Come on, yeah
Dylan: But the feeling that I hated when I left that rally was that I was scared for you to see the piece.
Jesse: Mmm-hmm.
Dylan: And I was like, I never, ever, ever, ever want that to happen again. With this podcast, the most important review is my guests. I always want them to feel like what was broadcast is like, oh yeah, that's the call. That is a good representation of how we spoke to each other. And I think that is where I was changed from that rally.
Jesse: Okay. Well, that's very interesting.
Dylan: Yeah. Again, I'm not saying ... I am not saying that I disagree with what I said politically then. I'm only trying to say that I ...
Jesse: I understand what you're saying. And you don't have to agree with me. And I don't have to agree with you. And you know what the fact is? We may agree with each other. We just may see different ways of doing things, to be honest, in a lot of cases anyway I understand though. You felt bad about kind of suckering people in, unaware people, and putting them in a context to make fun of them. I get it, man. I appreciate your apology. It's not a big deal. I think you're very articulate, and I like your show, dude.
Dylan: Oh, great. Well, look at that. Well, this is perfect. So, Jesse, completely separate from all of this, and this is usually the opening question I have for people on the podcast, I don't feel like I really got to know you at that rally, and I would love to start afresh and get to know you now. So, tell me about you.
[BREAK]
Dylan: I don't feel like I really got to know you at that rally. And I would love to start afresh and get to know you now. So, tell me about you.
Jesse: I do a podcast called The Shit Show with Jaybo.
Dylan: (LAUGHTER) Amazing.
Jesse: Or TSS with Jaybo.
Dylan: TSS with Jaybo.
Jesse: I lived in Seattle for 20 years.
Dylan: Oh, wow.
Jesse: Yes. Yes. I am a musician. I grow medical marijuana.
Dylan: Nice.
Jesse: I live in western Pennsylvania now. My father needed some help with his physical state. He's a little bit sick. I'm helping him out. I came here to help my family. Moved from Seattle, started fresh in the place I came every summer. I'm from Florida originally, but I would come to Pennsylvania every summer. How did I become a Trump fan? Well, I went to the RNC, Republican National Convention. I bought a Trump hat. I saw him speak. And something happened. I don't agree with every single thing. I think it's interesting the way he kind of trolls media constantly, the way he battles them. I think it's exciting. I don't know. I just enjoy his style. I think he's an outsider. I didn't think Hillary Clinton was a good candidate. I thought she was part of the establishment. And I know we throw around those words, but it seemed like everybody was on her side to win. And I can't believe he won. I know it sounds crazy, but I look at him as a bit of a political hero for actually beating her because I never thought it possible.
Dylan: It's funny, Jesse. You and I clearly ... I think we disagree very strongly politically. And I guess just in the interest of this call-
Jesse: But I don't know, Dylan. I know you can say that. But I mean, and perhaps, perhaps you've come to that conclusion in your mind. I haven't come to that conclusion. We haven't actually discussed politics. I think online can be very polarizing. And maybe from what I've told you, you would assume that, and maybe it's true. But I'm not going to cosign that. I don't know that we strongly disagree politically.
Dylan: Well, here's the thing. What I'm trying to reconcile is that fact that right now, I feel super comfortable with you.
Jesse: Mmm-hmm.
Dylan: And I like the experience of talking to you.
Jesse: Sure.
Dylan: But when you say things like you're a Trump supporter, to me that just raises red flags. And it's like, oh wow, we really disagree.
Jesse: Right.
Dylan: And only because these words are shorthand, right? Like saying Trump supporter,
Jesse: Right.
Dylan: then suddenly I'm like, “oh fuck-”
Jesse: Uh-huh.
Dylan: ...like “this is a different thing for me.” I don't know. I guess I just have to acknowledge that, that I feel that ... it's not like a fear. Because I'm not at all scared of you for sure at all. It's just-
Jesse: Mmm-hmm.
Dylan: that I ... it raises this flag in me that I'm like, “oh God, we disagree.”
Jesse: I feel like possibly we're conditioned to think those things. And in a lot of cases there is reason for that, right? But we may disagree on some things. We may agree on others. I don't know, man. I don't know you well enough. And maybe if we sat down for coffee if I'm ever in Brooklyn ... I don't expect you to do that with me. But I'm saying maybe we could talk about some things. I'm just not going to cosign on that we, because I happen to say I'm a Trump supporter, that automatically we're arch rivals politically. I mean I just-
Dylan: Well I don’t- but see, that's the thing is like, we're not arch rivals as humans. Because like,
Jesse: Correct.
Dylan: you're a human being, and I'm a human being. And something I want to open up to you about is at the time you met me, when I was filming that field piece, in a lot of ways I was searching for an identity for myself. I was searching for an artistic identity, and I was searching for an artistic voice. Another reason I'm not proud of that field piece is I just didn't like that field piece. I didn't think it was saying anything smart. And I also didn't think it was saying anything new. And honestly I think-
Jesse: Right.
Dylan: I was just trying to copy The Daily Show.
Jesse: Yeah.
Dylan: At the time I was doing things that felt very much in my voice. And this was something that I was like, oh, why did I do that? Why did I do something that feels reductive of other people's work?
Jesse: Yeah.
Dylan: And honestly I feel like with this show, I've found a voice that I'm proud of. And I think I've found a mission that I really believe in, which is that I think we need to get to know the human on the other side of the screen. And I want to find inroads and ways for people to do that. And I want to host a space for people to do that. But I want you to know that I'm not a person who thinks that I'm flawless, and I'm not a person who thinks that I'm perfect. And I look back at that, and I see someone who was trying to find an artistic voice for himself. And in that moment didn't quite hit the nail on the head in finding it.
Jesse: Listen, man. I understand what you're telling me because I'm a musician. And I go back and listen to old demos of mine. And I go, holy shit, (LAUGHTER) I was ripping off Michael Stipe. And I can't even listen to it. So, I get it, man. You were a digital artist, you were trying to find your voice, and you stumbled a little bit. I agree. The piece wasn't that interesting-
Dylan: Yeah. (laughs) Good!)
Jesse: … but whatever.
Dylan: Look, we do agree on something! That's wonderful.
Jesse: Yeah.
Dylan: No, no, no. But continue with what you were saying because this is interesting. So, you're a musician. And talk to me about the evolution of finding your voice as a musician.
Jesse: Well, I do remember when I found my voice. I was singing in some shitty little bar in Seattle. But to me, it was still great because art is its own reward. I mean, there were a few people there. But I remember when I actually literally found my singing voice, like something that was kind of mine. Kind of mine. Not fully, but kind of mine. And I'm just saying, I understand you were trying to find your voice. I've gone back and listened to old demos of mine or old release, like recordings that I've done. I can't stand them. I cannot stand listening to them. Other people ... I cringe when they tell me, hey, that was cool. So, I do understand that. And that's when you put yourself in the public eye, people who have never made art, never put themselves out there, don't realize that it can be really, really hard. And I've been dressed down in the ... Seattle Week ... or Seattle Stranger, it's called. It's a local paper. You might be aware of it. The Stranger just insulted and dissed a five-song EP, a record that I put out. They just ... they destroyed it publicly. So, I know how you feel to look back on things that were public and feel like you stumbled. That's what an artist does. That's the chance, or that's the risk we take when we put things out in the world. And it's really hard sometimes.
Dylan: Thank you for sharing that with me, and I totally get that. And I do agree with you. And I think what you did was noble because it was like an artist trying to find their voice, right? But I think the thing is with my work, and this is truly how I see my work, but I see my work as the quote unquote material I use is other people, right?
Jesse: Mmm-hmm.
Dylan: It's other people's stories. And there's a way to do that ethically, and there's a way to do that unethically. And what I'm trying to do with this podcast is use other people's stories consensually to make art about it and to make work from it. And I totally stand by that. And as I speak to you now, I can tell you I'm very proud of this. And I like doing this. But what I did then is I was using the same paint, so to speak, or to put it in a music metaphor I was using the same instruments of human beings.
Jesse: Mmm-hmm.
But I don't know that I was doing it in a way that I still stand by today, right? Because the difference between my instruments and your instruments of the respective art that we make is that your instruments don't have feelings, right? If you play something that you're not thrilled by, the instruments you used to record that, the instruments you used to play that don't have a feeling about how they feel used by that. What I don't like is that when I mess up, my instruments, i.e., humans who I should be working-
Jesse: Mmm-hmm.
Dylan: ... with and not working to shape into my view of how I see this piece already existing, that is what makes me feel uncomfortable looking back at that piece. Not only was it not that smart and not only was it not that good, but that I affected your feelings in a negative way. That is what makes me uncomfortable, if that makes sense.
Jesse: It does make sense. And you're giving me a little bit too much credit. I also do a podcast. And although I don't use humans in the same way, I tell a lot of stories about people that I know and use different names. So, I'm using their experiences to, in a sense, take the piss out of them, to make fun of them. So, I get it. I get it.
Dylan: Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, but also I think there is something transformative about this, right? The ability to actually own up to something and then talk honestly with a person who you want to talk to. I honestly can't tell you how much I appreciate this call for that very reason. I like this. I like talking to you. I like talking through this, and I like ...
Jesse: Yeah, I'm really comfortable, really happy with it.
Dylan: Yeah, me too. But I also think all humans have this ability too, and all humans have this power and the potential to have these conversations with each other.
Jesse: I agree. And they should do more of this. To give you an example, one time, there's a lot of propaganda about Muslim folks, that they're totally different than us. And I actually went to Turkey, I went to Istanbul. And I stayed with three Muslim brothers. And one was atheist, two were fully Muslims. We talked about my religion. They were trying to get me stoned and drunk on this Turkish liquor and Bud. And I was like, holy shit, I'm in a Muslim household, and these are no different than the 22-year-old people that would be back home in America. Absolutely. Break down the walls, have conversations. It's a beautiful thing. I agree. And this is a great medium.
Dylan: Wait, so you host a podcast. Tell me about that.
Jesse: Yeah, it's called TSS with Jaybo. And I've been doing it for about five or six years. It started off at Hollow Earth Radio in Seattle. Originally it was just me playing music. And I got to actually having people on my show, just friends. And then, I started contacting musicians to interview. And I was really surprised at how many musicians that I was actually fans of would come on my show. I've interviewed drummers, like the first drummer of the Beatles, Pete Best. I got to interview him. I interviewed a guy from Built to Spill, the singer. Guys from Modest Mouse, guys from REM. Just some of my favorite bands I got to interview. And I put them out as a podcast. And since I've left Seattle, I still interview people from time to time. But I've learned that I kind of just enjoy setting up a mike and literally doing stream of consciousness for about 40 minutes. And I vowed about five months ago to put out one year's worth of podcasts weekly, and then see where I was at. So, I'm about 19 weeks into that year. And it's called The Shit Show with Jaybo or TSS with Jaybo. We're on iTunes. It's kind of weird, it's kind of wacky. It's not nearly as professional or as manicured as yours. But it's still a podcast, it's still pretty cool.
Dylan: So, you know what that reminds me of? Have you read that Ira Glass quote about creativity?
Jesse: No
Dylan: So, I'm going to read it to you now just because I think what you did is very similar. And I quote, hold on, it's so beautiful. And this actually really ... this really, really resonated with me. So, you're not a beginner, but this is what Ira Glass said to beginners. But you'll see what I'm referring to here. Ira said, “Nobody tells this to people who are beginners. I wish someone told me, all of us who do creative work, we get into it because we have good taste. But there is this gap. For the first couple of years, you make stuff. It's just not that good. It's trying to be good, but it has potential, but it's not. But your taste, the thing that got you into the game is still killer. And your taste is why your work disappoints you. A lot of people never get past this phase. They quit. Most people I know who do interesting creative work went through years of this. We know our work doesn't have the special thing that we want it to have. We all go through this. And if you are just starting out or you are still on this phase, you've got to know it's normal. And the most important thing you can do is to do a lot of work. Put yourself on a deadline. This is the part that made me think of you. Put yourself on a deadline so that every week you will finish one story. It's only by going through a volume of work that you will close that gap, and your work will be as good as your ambitions. And I took longer to figure that out how to do this than anyone I've ever met. It's going to take a while. It's normal to take a while. You've just got to fight your way through.” And I think what's so beautiful about that is like we're all doing that. I'm trying to do that with this podcast by setting myself on a deadline. And I love that you've set yourself on a deadline for doing it weekly. What have you learned by doing it weekly?
Jesse: What was really inspiring to me, I got to interview a guy from a podcast called True Crime Garage. His name is The Captain. It's a great true crime podcast. And he told me that when they started up their podcast, he wanted to do it once a week. And he's like, that's the only way you'll get a following. You have to be consistent with it. And so, I just thought about that for a few months. And at one point I didn't know if I was going to quit the podcast or keep going with it. And I just had this random thought, do it for a year every week. And I was like, there's no way in hell I'll do that. There's no way. But I said, you know what, fuck it. And I did it. And it's been 19 straight. I'm actually recording music in a month, so I'm taking a month off. But I've banked five podcasts, so I can put them out …
Dylan: That’s amazing.
Jesse: … every Tuesday. So, I'm not ... Here's the deal. We can sit around and wait for lightning to strike as artists. But the real deal is you have to work, man. You have to work. It's the work ethic even if it sucks. Because then you'll be ready when the lightning hits, and everything will be 10 times better because you'll be oiled up and you'll be ready to rock.
Dylan: Yeah, no, I totally agree with that. Well, Jesse, do you have any kind of final questions for me?
Jesse: Let me see here, Dylan. I wrote down a bunch but the best kind of talks ...
Dylan: Yeah, are just organic.
Jesse: ... are the ones where you actually throw out your questions. Let's see. I don't know if any of these questions I had for you still apply, but I'm going to look at them real quick.
Dylan: Okay, good. Good, good, good. Take your time.
Jesse: Okay, there's only one that kind of sticks out. It's slightly probing.
Dylan: No, that's fine.
Jesse: But I felt like when I first clapped back at you, for you putting that piece out, and I didn't know what to expect. I was a little nervous. You are when you kind of confront somebody, even ... no matter who you are. You immediately erased the post.
Dylan: Yes.
Jesse: I retweeted you
Dylan: Yes yes.
Jesse: … with a comment on top.
Dylan: Yeah yeah yeah.
Jesse: … and you deleted your tweet, so there was no content. And then, so I clapped back the second time, and you immediately hit me with a message. And I felt like that was a way to quell the negativity. And I appreciate that. The question I had here, and I don't even know if it still applies, is why do you care so much if people have an issue with you?
Dylan: Wow. Oh man. (LAUGHTER) I think that's a probing question but only in the best way. (JESSE LAUGHTER) Wow, that really opens up a big can of worms for me. So, one, to just address, I deleted the tweet you retweeted not because of you, but because I had taken that video down for a totally different reason. But I do remember seeing that. And I remember being so scared of that. And I remember being scared because I felt like, oh man, like I feel like this person saw me do something that I'm not proud of.
Jesse: Right.
Dylan: And I felt incredibly seen and incredibly scared by that. I almost ... I can now almost recall ... this was back when I still used the word troll, but you said something along the lines of like at Dylan Marron, why are you pretending that you are being trolled when you are a troll yourself? And I was like, I know who this is, and I feel so ashamed. And I feel ashamed because I don't like that I did something with him that I am not proud of. And I just want to be honest with you. I have thought of that rally repeatedly since doing this podcast. Because this podcast invites me into people's lives in a really intimate and beautiful way. And I've been like, man, I wish ... I have searched back for that original tweet you wrote. I could never find you. And then, when you retweeted the interview I did on Amanpour on PBS, I was like, oh my God, this is an opportunity. I'm going to message him. And it was really because this podcast has shown me the power of being able to-
Jesse: Yeah.
Dylan: ...own what we've done in the past, but to also take the other person's feelings into consideration, ask that person their feelings, to apologize when you feel that it's right to apologize, and also to break down the walls that stand between us on the internet. And that's why I DM-ed you this time, to own up to it, was really because you had been on my mind for a long time as a person who I knew was like ... did not feel good about a field piece I had made with you. I felt guilty about that. And then, when you retweeted this I was like, oh my God, I have the opportunity to reach out to this guy again. And that's why I did.
Jesse: I appreciate that. And there's nothing, honestly ... I talk with my girlfriend about this all the time. When people start blaming other people for their problems, they're not owning up. For better or for worse, there's literally nothing better in the human experience than to just own up. Because you realize you're in control. You own up, and it's not that bad. You're facing it. That's a beautiful thing.
Dylan: I completely agree with that. And I feel like ... And I truly, Jesse, I thank you. Because you have given me the opportunity to do that on this call. And the roles are reversed here, right? Now it is I who is apologizing for something that I regret from the past. And I feel so grateful for the opportunity to ... for you to receive that. I cannot emphasize enough how much that means to me. So, thank you.
Jesse: Hey, man. I love doing podcasts. I love having conversations. This is great.
Dylan: Great. Well, look at that. Oh my God. And I feel like what we can learn from this, and if this gets to be an episode, of course with your permission, but if this gets to be an episode I think what a beautiful lesson that we can share with people, that if you are the ... not only if you're the recipient of negativity, but if you have said something negative in the past or you have done something that you're not so proud of, of course with the exception of if you have done something that you have significant harmed someone, I think that's a different story. But if you've said something that was mean to someone or, in my case, if you've done something that you're not proud of, I think the power of owning up to it is incredible. And it feels so good. I can tell you that with 100% assurance.
Jesse: We all have said shitty things and done shitty things. Absolutely it feels good. For sure.
Dylan: Yeah, totally. So, Jesse, how about instead of doing the release right now, why don't I send it to you, and you see how you feel about it? Does that sound good?
Jesse: First of all, I'm 99% sure I'll be comfortable with it.
Dylan: Okay, great.
Jesse: But yes, that's fine. And I'm really excited actually. It's a really nice conversation.
[Instrumental of ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals begins to play.]
[Phone rings. Music fades. Guest picks up.]
Jesse: Hello?
Dylan: Hey, Jesse.
Jesse: Hey, Dylan.
Dylan: Hey.
Jesse: What's going on, man?
Dylan: How are you? So, your phone is about to die.
Jesse: Yeah. I mean, I've got a couple minutes, but yeah, it's a long story. But yeah. I just wondered if you could call me just a few minutes earlier, that would be great.
Dylan: Yes. And now here we are. Look at us. Eight minutes early. So, Jesse, you just listened to the episode as it will be going out. And I figured that since the circumstances under which we met were that you felt kind of duped into being part of something you didn't know what it was, this time I wanted to do it differently and make sure you knew what you were part of. So, do you feel comfortable with the episode that you heard?
Jesse: Yes. I thought it was very well done.
Dylan: Oh, great.
Jesse: It made me feel good.
Dylan: Oh, good.
Jesse: It made me feel really optimistic about listening to the thing when it comes out for real.
Dylan: Well, Jesse, thank you so much for listening to it. And thanks for taking the time to do this little mini call. I just want to say on a personal note, this call meant a lot to me, and thank you for kind of taking the opportunity to do it. And yeah, I just appreciated talking to you. So, thank you.
Jesse: It was a hell of a good time. I'm looking forward to it, man.
Dylan: Well, I will see you on the internet and hopefully we'll talk soon.
Jesse: All right, buddy. Talk soon. I love that, man. All right.
Dylan: Sounds good. Bye, Jesse.
Jesse: See you, Dylan. Bye bye.
[Phone call ends with a hang up sound. The drumbeat from ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals kicks in.]
Dylan [VOICEOVER CLOSING CREDITS]: If you'd like to be a guest on this show, please visit www dot Conversations with People Who Hate Me dot com for more information.
Conversations with People Who Hate Me is a production of Night Vale Presents. Vincent Cacchione is the sound engineer and mixer, Christy Gressman is the executive producer. The theme song is These Dark Times by Caged Animals. The brand new logo was designed by Phillip Blackowl with a photo by Mindy Tucker. And this podcast was created, produced, and hosted by me, Dylan Marron.
Special thanks to Adam Cecil and our publicist Megan Larson.
We'll be releasing episodes every other week, so I will see you in two weeks with a brand new conversation.
Until then, remember, there's a human on the other side of the screen.
[Chorus of ‘These Darks Times’ by Caged Animals plays.]