EPISODE 27: I HATE AMANDA PALMER
Amanda: You know for the record, Colleen, I don't think you hate me.
Colleen: I don't hate you.
Amanda: And I also don't think you hated me four years ago when you wrote that tweet, I don't think you knew me.
[Instrumental of ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals begins to play.]
Dylan [VOICEOVER INTRODUCTION]: Hey, and welcome back to Conversations With People Who Hate Me. The show where I take negative online comments and use them as a starting point for offline conversations. I'm your host, Dylan Marron.
Sometimes I speak to people who have said negative things to me online. Other times like today, I moderate conversations between strangers. And it's a show where we humanize people on the internet. Like I say at the end of every episode, and I'm saying at the beginning of this one, it's just a reminder that there is a human on the other side of the screen.
Today's episode deals with an interesting topic which is, hate directed at a celebrity and sometimes this is kind of directed nowhere because there's no kind of guarantee that the celebrity is going to see it.
So today I'm moderating a call between Amanda Palmer and a woman named Colleen. Amanda Palmer, some of you may know, she is a musician. She's an author. She's a big deal. She has been around for a while, and she has a lot of fans, and she also has as we'll find today, some detractors too. And I'll be connecting her with Colleen, who, four years ago to the day of recording this conversation - four years ago to the day! That's pretty wild! - Colleen tweeted, "I'm not sure I hate any celebrity the way I hate Amanda Palmer."
So first, I will speak one on one to Amanda then I'll speak one on one to Colleen and then you guessed it, I will connect them to each other. This is a really fascinating episode. We got a lot of really cool introspection from both parties, and I hope you enjoy it. So here we go. Here is Amanda.
[Music fades. Conversation begins.]
Dylan: Amanda, hi!
Amanda: Hi.
Dylan: You are so many things.
Amanda: Oh, God.
Dylan: You're a musician, you're an author. You are an artist, you are a creator, you're a digital creator. How do you identify?
Amanda: I don't like to identify.
Dylan: Great.
Amanda: I actually feel like the harder I try to identify myself. And of course, then you get attached to that narrative and that identification, the worse off I am. So I actually figured that my job is to just do the things and then it's somebody else's job to say what they are.
Dylan: I love that a lot. So according to your online presence, you are a maker of things?
Amanda: Yeah. I mean, I spent a lot of my life wanting to identify and be identified as a songwriter and musician. And I actually still feel that way. And sometimes I wonder if I get in my way by constantly talking about other things and doing all sorts of other things that distract people from the fact that what I fundamentally do if I have one salient real talent, it's music. But what's funny is I find myself actually even disagreeing with that. Sometimes I look back at everything and I think that I only got into music, so that I could do people, because what I really love is other people and I really love being with them. I love talking to them. And I love figuring them out. And I love helping them and I love when they help me and I just fucking love people.
Dylan: Yeah.
Amanda: And music, I look back at my childhood self and the way I viewed the world and what I saw, and it looks like the most exciting available job to be in the mix with other people was being a performer and a musician because the whole narrative surrounding that is, you're allowed to be emotional, you're supposed to connect, your job is to sort of be this tribal shaman of emotion and connection and the heightened experience. And I just remember looking at that as a kid and being like, "I want that job. If that's a job. Like all these other jobs look boring. I want that job. I want the job where you're allowed to just be as real as possible with people."
Dylan: Yeah. Yeah. No, I love that. So you seem to have a very uniquely close and wonderful relationship with your fans. How did you start fostering that?
Amanda: Well, I started with The Dresden Dolls.
Dylan: Mmm-hmm.
Amanda: And when The Dresden Dolls started as a local band, playing in bars and lofts and teeny shows with not many people, and we did a lot of that, we were a small band for a couple of years. I just took my cues from my mentors, like the bands that I was really, really into and loved as a teenager. And their approach, because these were like alternative punk folk bands. Their approach was very human. They were really connected, the bands that I loved, stayed after shows and signed and talked to people and crashed at fans houses and... I came out of DIY world. And from my way of looking at it, that's why you do the job.Like you want to be a musician because you want to hang out with people and you want to have a lot of friends and stay in their houses and eat their food and be in the scene. So The Dresden Dolls were a very community-based band. And then it wasn't until we sort of got up the ladder a little bit and we were touring more and I encountered other bands and just saw more of the world that I actually understood that what we were doing wasn't always the average.
Dylan: Yeah.
Amanda: In certain scenes it was. In the punk scene and the certain folk scenes, but I remember being really like astounded and then feeling really naive when I realized that there were a lot of bands who didn't want to talk to their fans.
Dylan: Yeah.
Amanda: Didn't want to hang out after shows. Didn't want to read fan mail. Didn't want to be known. Didn't want to be touched, like really loved their jobs, loved the music they created, but really, the way I did really confused them.
Dylan: Yeah.
Amanda: And then I actually had a real turning point around 2010, 12, when like the dark internet erupted, and hate really started coming my way. Because I encountered my first bit of internet, hey, locally. Like at the local level in Boston, there was a there was a music magazine called The Noise and it was the Boston black and white, available at all the record shops. And they had their own forum, their own board called the noise board. And this was pre-social media, and the noise board is where all the snarky local musicians went to dish and rag on other musicians and it was really toxic. And it was the first time I encountered that level of negativity and like, blatant hatred of me. Like it almost felt like there was a competition for a while on the noise board to see who could say more terrible things about The Dresden Dolls, and how bad we were.
Dylan: And it was aimed at you? Yeah.
Amanda: It was all aimed at me. Actually, that was something that was a little bit of a theme around that time, which is all the hatred was aimed at me. And Brian got occasional sympathy Brian, the drummer of The Dresden Dolls for having to be in the poor dude in the band with the talentless hairy cunt who can't sing.
Dylan: Wow.
Amanda: That was Brian's lot, is like that poor guy.
Dylan: Woah. Well, this is a good transition to what we're even here to do, which is that of course with the proliferation of the internet and the ability to really voice whatever it is you think about a public person. I think the flip side of being a public person who a lot, a lot of people really love, is you also get to find the people who don't feel that way about you. Do you pay attention to that? Do you pay attention to the negativity?
Amanda: Yeah, I do. But I've also learned how to dance with it. It's part and parcel of being in the arena of the internet, you're not allowed to just go into the internet and collect the goodies and the candy and the wonderful things that shower you with wonderful ego feelings.
Dylan: Yeah.
Amanda: If you're going to go out and get those goods, you're going to have to also dance through and around the slings and arrows that are going to head your way. And then it's really just a question of, at what volume do you want the cost benefit of love and hate in your life? Yeah.
Dylan: So, a person on the internet named Colleen tweeted, "I'm not sure I hate any celebrity the way I hate Amanda Palmer."
Amanda: Oh, Colleen.
Dylan: Yeah. So what does it feel-
Amanda: I really love her.
Dylan: You love Colleen. So what does it feel like to read something like that?
Amanda: Oh, I mean, I think in terms of the spectrum of internet hate that's not very bad. It just feels really general. I don't know, it always makes me so curious. Like, I've weathered so many storms of hatred on the internet that I'm always very curious about what's driving the hatred? What's driving the person?
Dylan: Yeah. This is kind of impossible question, because this is just a thing that is written on Twitter. Do you have any perception of Colleen at the moment?
Amanda: Just from that tweet?
Dylan: Yeah.
Amanda: I mean, I'll tell you something, usually when I see comments like that, I read the rest of the person's feed.
Dylan: Oh, yeah. I do too.
Amanda: To see if they're just a general professional hater. Or if I'm a special unicorn in their world and they love everything else, but they just happen to have reserved some hatred for me.
Dylan: Yeah.
Amanda: No. I don't have any perception of her. I mean, my main M.O. when I'm dealing with hatred like this on the internet is, I almost never engage. And lately if I do engage, I literally try to disarm the person with love and understanding.
Dylan: Yeah.
Amanda: And I confuse the shit out of them because no one's ever expecting that.
[Solo conversation with Amanda ends. Phone rings. Second guest picks up.]
Dylan: Yeah. Hey, Colleen.
Colleen: Hey, John. How are you?
Dylan: I'm good. How are you doing?
Colleen: I am good. You've had a good weekend?
Dylan: I did. I did. How about you?
Colleen: Yeah. Good. Yeah. I kind of spent the afternoon at the gym-
Dylan: Oooh!
Colleen: Just so that I, I've been so busy this week, which is why I couldn't talk.
Dylan: Not to brag! Check you out. No, I'm proud of you.
Colleen: Thank you so much.
Dylan: So Colleen, to kick us off. Let's start small. Let's start mundane. How's your day going so far?
Colleen: My day is been good. It's been really relaxed, had some Ethiopian food
Dylan: oooh!
Colleen: … and went to the gym, did some ironing.
Dylan: Love. Nice. Great. Oh my God, ironing and gym, you're living the life. So-
Colleen: Oh, yeah.
Dylan: Oh, yeah. So, in only the briefest way think social media profile, how would you describe yourself? Tell me about Colleen.
Colleen: I am very honest. I'm very candid.
Dylan: Yes.
Colleen: What you see is what you get.
Dylan: Great.
Colleen: I try to be as honest online as I would be in person with someone.
Dylan: Great.
Colleen: So I try my best to be authentic and I'm pretty weird, but I am what I am.
Dylan: Okay, perfect. So the topic and also ironically person we are here to talk about is Amanda Palmer. So this brings us to the tweet that you wrote. And a few years ago, you wrote a tweet that said, "I'm not sure I hate any celebrity the way I hate Amanda Palmer."
Colleen: Oh my God.
Dylan: How does it feel to hear that tweet read back to you now?
Colleen: Honestly, it feels, I don't know, part of it, I think hate might be a strong word because I don't actually know her.
Dylan: MHM
Colleen: I know where I was when I wrote that tweet. And I stand by the feelings I had at that time. In that moment.
Dylan: Mhm. You stand by the feeling you had. Okay, well, no, and that's totally great. What I want to know currently right now, in this moment, you haven't spoken to Amanda yet. What is your perception of Amanda?
Colleen: Oh, boy.
Dylan: Go for it.
Colleen: My perception is not great. It's one of outlandish myth for the sake of, I guess you could say, just to get a reaction from people. Brass. She read me the wrong way. Like I don't know how else to explain it other than- She rubs me the wrong way and she makes me cringe with a lot of the things that I read. Her, having done or having said. Oh, it's off putting, I think is the best way to put it.
Dylan: Off putting. So we have your perceptions about Amanda. We have the fact that you have stood by this tweet. (COLLEEN LAUGHTER) What I want to know is how are you feeling now that you're about to speak to her?
Colleen: Honestly, there's a little bit of shame. I'm going to be totally just honest with you.
Dylan: Shame for writing it?
Colleen: Because it's not... Yeah. A little shame for that, because I never, I don't think I ever thought she would know that I tweeted that, and it's not something I think... I think I'm a better person than I am then in that, that was one of those tweets that I might not have said to someone's face at the time. So there's a little bit of shame in knowing that I said something that could potentially hurt someone and hurt her feelings. I don't think she cares at all about me or what I think of her, but yeah, I feel a little shame. So I'm a little nervous to talk to her. Because it's potentially someone whose feelings I've hurt. That makes me feel a little weird.
Dylan: Right and it sounds like from just speaking to you on the phone, it sounds like this is not the type of thing that you maybe say to anyone in your life, right?
Colleen: Yes.
Dylan: Yeah.
Colleen: Yes. That's exactly it. And there probably was a time in place when I was a lot younger, where I would have said, "Oh, I don't care. This is how I feel."
Dylan: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Colleen: I'm just going to tell you.
Dylan: Yeah.
Colleen: Not anymore.
Dylan: Right. We're all evolving humans. And God bless us for that.
Colleen: Yeah, I evolved into that impulse control, that part of my brain grew and now probably wouldn't say it.
Dylan: Yeah. Listen, I support you.
Colleen: Oh, gosh, just now, Don dawned on me that she's probably going to ask me things.
Dylan: Oh-
Colleen: Oh, boy.
Dylan: No. No. No. Don't obsess over that too much. It's going to be again, you only have to answer whatever you feel comfortable answering.
Colleen: Yeah.
Dylan: All I ask is that you just come in as your wonderful self and we just be three humans on the phone together.
Colleen: Awesome.
Dylan: Cool.
Colleen: I'm excited about it. More than I am nerves, it's excitement.
[Phone rings. All guests are now connected.]
Dylan: Hey Colleen, you're on the line and you're on the line with Amanda.
Amanda: Hi Colleen.
Colleen: Oh, hi Amanda.
Dylan: We're all here together in this beautiful digital space right now that we have carved out. Amanda let's start with you. I would love for you to tell Colleen who you are. What makes you, you?
Amanda: Well I don't know how much Colleen already knows about me, she must know a little bit, if she made a comment on the internet but, yeah, I'm a musician on the road and a writer and a confused mom because I never expected to have a kid and spend 10 years struggling trying to figure out whether or not to have a kid and finally did it Yeah, and I'm a like searching creative person trying to figure out what to do.
Dylan: Yeah.
Amanda: That's what I feel like right now.
Dylan: That's great. Colleen, take it away. Tell us about you. What makes you, you?
Colleen: All right. So I, honestly a Jane of many trades over here.
Dylan: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Colleen: I am creative as well. And I can relate to Amanda in that sense. I used to be a wedding photographer, and I was also a baker for a really long time. So wedding cakes, things of that nature. And now I work, a big girl job in sales.
Dylan: Yes.
Colleen: So not anything I ever thought that I would do. But here we are. And I actually really love it. And I'm just a person who, I don't know, I like to challenge myself. I like to, guess the reason I took this call was I like to talk to people who are different from me and kind of put myself in uncomfortable situations to grow. And just, I'm a curious person. I love learning about things. I like, I don't know, just kind of watching the world unfold and getting to be a part of it is really cool and terrifying and exciting.
Dylan: Yeah.
Amanda: You sound amazing.
Dylan: Yeah.
Amanda: Where are you? You're in Texas?
Colleen: Yes, ma'am. Yeah. So I'm in Texas. I'm in Austin, Texas. And I work for a tech company here downtown.
Amanda: I like Austin. I've done a lot of South by SouthWest a lot of times and I'm actually just about to do it again. In March, I'm going to be in-
Colleen: Oh, that's exciting.
Dylan: Same town.
Colleen: Oh, that's awesome.
Amanda: Same town. So if we wind up really liking each other- I'll invite you to my show. Or you can come to my show anyway
Dylan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's do it.
Colleen: I know. I was thinking about that. I thought what if this goes so well that I actually completely reversed my opinion here-
Dylan: Yeah.
Colleen: And I'm like, "Oh, she's really wonderful. And now she's my best friend. Sorry, everyone."
Dylan: Yeah. We're all going to leave here best friends, holding hands and running off into the sunset together.
Amanda: On a unicorn.
Dylan: On a unicorn.
Colleen: Perfect.
Dylan: Three unicorns or one unicorn?
Amanda: No, all on one unicorn.
Colleen: Oh, excellent.
Dylan: Okay. So Colleen just-
Amanda: You're in the middle and we're clutching to you.
Dylan: Yes. Okay. That sounds great. So Colleen, the unicorn will be arriving in Austin I guess, what is unicorn time? What is unicorn fly time?
Amanda: The unicorn should come to New York pick us up and then we'll ride to Austin on the unicorn. And-
Dylan: Yes. Yes. Yes.
Amanda: And then we'll go to California of course.
Dylan: Yeah. Okay, great. So Colleen, does that work for you?
Colleen: Oh, yeah.
Dylan: The unicorn picking you up?
Colleen: Perfect I'm on board.
Dylan: Okay. Cool. We'll see you sometime in a few hours I think is how fast unicorns travel. Okay, so this is great. You guys know each other a little. I mean, as you know, what we are here to do is we're here to talk about a tweet. I'm sharing this with love. So Colleen, four years ago to the day you wrote, "I'm not sure I hate any celebrity the way I hate Amanda Palmer." Rather than what you feel about that comment now, I would just like to hear what inspired that comment?
Colleen: Okay, so even just hearing that out loud, makes my stomach just turn. Oh, okay. So what prompted that was, it was a combination of things where I have friends who were big Dresden Dolls fans, and I tried to listen to them a couple times but it just wasn't for me. I seemed kind of over the top in the sense of forced, I don't know how to, like it was showmanship but it was forced shock value is kind of how I perceived in. So I didn't really... I kind of left it alone and didn't listen to much of the music and then Amanda kept popping up kind of all over the place, an interview she was doing or events that she had done. And it was like one thing after another where I would hear something or see something and be like, "What? Why? I don't get this." And so then I ended up working an event where she was present, and it was an event for one of her books and the fan base, dealing with the fan base before and after, was one of the most off putting fan bases I dealt with. And it was weird because I have friends who are big fans of hers, but they didn't act like that. And so, I was so stressed, I was tired. I'd worked this event for like 12 hours. And then dealing with all of this and reading all of these things and hearing all this stuff now, it's just like, I can't. I can't. That's what prompted that tweet.
Amanda: What was it about my fans that was off putting?
Colleen: Yeah, so it was this, they were very evangelical. Honestly, it was like, you are their God. And you can do no wrong and it was the most, it was a little scary, honestly, the way that people viewed you and talked about you and were losing their minds just to meet you. And I just kept thinking, "She's just a person. She's an artist. You like her art, but she's no better than you." And there were some other things. There were a couple things like, some of them had brought instruments with them and we're playing them in the bookstore while the event was going on, and we had to keep, whatever, it happens. We talked to them and were, said like, "You can't do this in a bookstore." And they would just be like, "Why?" And a couple of us dealt with it to the point we were like, "I don't know what else to do." So the sense of just like worshiping you really made me uncomfortable. And I don't want to discredit you as a person at all or anything that you do. But it was that sense of just, that you were their religion.
Amanda: Yeah, I get it. I mean, if it makes you feel any better, like seeing that kind of behavior from any human being can be really off putting period. And I mean, I don't like that when I have to deal with it.
Dylan: Yeah. And I also think that, Colleen to be fair, I think there's a sense of like internal contrarianism that we all have, like, if we see people worshiping someone who we don't particularly know well, there's the sense of like, "Oh, well, I can identify myself as not that." Do you know what I mean?
Colleen: Right. Yeah.
Dylan: Yeah, there's almost not necessarily a power but yeah, you're identifying yourself by identifying yourself as not bad.
Colleen: Right.
Dylan: Okay. So that's interesting. Um. BUH BUH BUH BUH-BUH. Okay, so, Amanda, I want to hear from you. What does it feel like to receive a tweet like this?
Amanda: Well, I mean, in context, if it was the only tweet I'd ever received like that, it would have been a lot more crushing. I see so much stuff like that, that it doesn't... I think there's such an immense amount of it out there that hearing it once doesn't really... The first few times I read things like that on the internet, It was really devastating. But I also wonder like, especially having had some time to reflect and some perspective on being, the target of tweets like that. I always wonder who the audience is? I mean, guess that's what I would ask Colleen is like, who? It probably wasn't written for me to see it because most people who write things like that assume that I'm not going to see them.
Dylan: And Colleen you didn't tag Amanda in it. Right? You just, I mean-
Colleen: No. No.
Dylan: Yeah. You didn't tag Amanda was just, putting it out into the ether.
Amanda: Yeah. So I always wonder, like, when someone sits down at a computer and says, I know what I'm going to write, I'm going to write that and press return. Who's the audience? Like if the audience isn't me, is it this person's friends? Is it their community? Like why does this person need to say this for who? What's the intended effect? And-
Colleen: Yeah.
Amanda: Yeah, I mean, that's sort of like the curiosity that comes up in my head when I read something like that nowadays.
Dylan: So Colleen, who were you thinking of for this tweet? Who was the audience?
Colleen: The audience was the ether, honestly. It was a thought that I had and wanted to get it out. I don't think I had an idea of why I was posting it or who I wanted to read it. It was one of those where I could not stop thinking about it that night about how frustrated I was. And I threw it out there for it to exist on the internet, whatever they do out there in the internet bubble.
Amanda: Do you think you would have still written it if you could have imagined me on the other side of the computer reading it the next day?
[BREAK]
Amanda: Do you think you would have still written it if you could have imagined me on the other side of the computer reading at the next day?
Colleen: No, honestly like, I kind of want to cry right now because I'm telling somebody who's also just a human being, here's this horrible thing I said about you, like, hate is a really strong word. And for me to say it about someone who could come across it. I don't know what I was thinking. I don't know why I thought that was acceptable. But, I was younger then, but I never thought that you would see it. And if I had known, you would see it, it never, never would have gone out there. And that is a huge lack of foresight on my part. Because it's the internet, you can search your name, you can find what the whole internet has to say about you. And a lot of it is really unpleasant and I just added to it. And you're a human being like me and to put myself in those shoes and to say, "What if somebody wrote this about me?" I would have just cried. Like I would have.
Amanda: You know, for the record Colleen, I don't think you hate me.
Dylan: Yeah.
Amanda: I don't even think you hate-
Colleen: I don't hate you.
Amanda: And I also don't think you hated me four years ago when you wrote that tweet. I don't think you knew me.
Dylan: Yeah.
Colleen: No.
Amanda: But I also, I think about that experience that you had, and the frustration and also having to do a really, really long, laborious job under the umbrella of Amanda Palmer and having nowhere to take that. And that's sort of what I imagined happening.
Dylan: Yeah. I also wanted-
Colleen: Yes, it was a lot of misplaced blame. Sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off.
Dylan: No. I'm furious that you cut me off. (LAUGHTER) No. I just wanted to be clear, this is not a shame podcast, right? The goal of this project is not to shame you for writing. You said you were about to cry. I mean, I encourage you to feel all the feelings that-
Colleen: I just feel bad.
Dylan: No, I totally get that. I just want to be clear, you're not the only human to have ever logged on to twitter.com and said something negative about a celebrity, right? (LAUGHTER) Like, I hate to break it to you, you did not copyright that and you don't own that copyright.
Colleen: Gosh. Dang it.
Dylan: No, I know. But I just want to say like, I mean, this is why I like making this show and this is why I like connecting people because of conversations like this. But to be fair, you were just using the mechanisms put in place for you, as they were intended to be used, right? You are constantly asked, you're constantly prompted, what are you thinking? What are you feeling? Share it in this box, put it out into the ether. Maybe someone will respond to it kind of thing. Do you know what I mean?
Colleen: Right. Right.
Dylan: And so, I don't want you to be falling on the sword too hard because it's not like... I think what I'm interested in exploring here is just how innocuous hate on the internet is quote unquote, hate. And just getting to the bottom of why someone said it. So--
Colleen: Can I add something?
Dylan: Please.
Colleen: Okay, so I've been thinking about this and as you're mentioning, the shame element here and you know, not wanting to fall on the sword, et cetera. I do have questions for Amanda that I do want to ask.
Dylan: Yes, please.
Colleen: On certain things that I'm really curious about that have kind of triggered not just that event was not the primary reason. There were a lot of culminating elements here. That kind of added up to it. I stand by my frustration, and sometimes disgust with some of the things that I've read and seen and I know that that does not make up the whole person. So that was part of the reason I wanted to have this conversation, is there are some things that I've seen-
Amanda: I would love that.
Colleen: ...and I'm like, "What?!" Okay.
Amanda: Because I would love to answer any question that you have. So hit me.
Dylan: Yeah. So, got for it.
Colleen: Okay, so there was a time where I came across this video of you, you were at a show, Amanda, and you were talking about how, and I'm going to use some words here that I think could be triggering to some of your audience. So I just-
Dylan: Colleen is right. This next section deals with suicide, drug use and death. And if those are three things or any one of those things are not something that you should be listening to right now or something you just don't want to hear, skip ahead approximately seven minutes and six seconds and you will skip this entire part.
Colleen: You had talked about how you would faked your own suicide in an attempt to convince your partner to stop doing drugs and you like you filmed it. Even used the audio in your music and that, when I watched that little video, I sat there dumbfounded. I was like, "What?" So I wanted to ask you, is that situation, was that real? Is that a thing that actually happened? Just, if you could help me understand that situation? Because that is something that I do look at and wonder, "What?"
Amanda: Yeah. I was a freshman in college, I was 17. And my boyfriend at the time was not using heroin, but had been, and it was a condition of our relationship that he not used again. And so, one night, and it was an agreement in our relationship that I didn't care what he does as long as he was honest with me, all I asked is that he not lie. I was like, I can handle anything. So if you're going to go back and you're going to use, if it's going to happen, at least come talk to me, but don't let me find out by accident So, he came to me one night, and he told me, "I promised I would tell you and I just have every intention of going out and doing this." And it was very frightening. And really, kind of heartbreaking because I was like, "Oh, wow, here you are considering me and telling me the truth. But what you're telling me is really terrible." And I was-
Colleen: Yeah.
Amanda: I was 17. You have to understand. I just didn't come from a background where I had any junkie friends or I knew what any of it meant. I was so lost. And-
Colleen: Right.
Amanda: All I knew is the degree to which it was bad and dangerous. And I mean, this is coming from a teenager who did a lot of drugs, but I didn't do a lot of hard drugs or really any hard drugs until I was older, and even then. (LAUGHTER) This was just like, I was out of my wheelhouse. And I was so angry at him, and I didn't know how to express it, and I didn't know what to do. And he had also told me, "I'm going to come home to your dorm at the end of the night." And I was like, I don't even know what this means. I don't even know what's going to happen. I don't even know what these drugs do to him. I just don't know anything. And, I was like an over dramatic performance art theatrical weirdo in my freshman year of college. And I don't look back at this with any kind of like, braggy pride, but I definitely look back at that 17 year old and I'm like, "Man what is shitty situation." And so I like got some fake blood and chocolate syrup and like poured it all over my bed and I lay there, in a pool of blood in my freshman dorm room bed and was like, "I'm just going to wait here until he comes back."
Dylan: Yeah. Yeah.
Amanda: This is my way of expressing I'm really angry and confused and I don't know what to do. And I also, I didn't film it or video it but I did have... I was an experimental music major. I taped everything in my life at the time. So I left a tape recorder running in my room.
Colleen: Got you.
Amanda: And he came in. I lay there for like an hour flipping the tape over again and again and again for two hours, it seemed endless and he finally came back. And he was scared shirtless for a second. And I let him be a scared shirtless for like 20 seconds, which felt like an eternity and then I laughed and I said, "Fooled you. You've really scared the shit out of me and you've really disappointed me and I don't know what to do in my relationship right now." And he thought it was really sick and funny. But he also had a very black sense of humor, we both did, it was what attracted us to each other.
Colleen: Right.
Amanda: And I don't look back at that episode and think, "Aha, I was such a clever, groundbreaking artists at 17. And I did this amazing thing." I don't have any pride about that. I mean, I look back at it. And it's a pretty apt portrait of who I was at 17, which was like, very over the top and pretty clumsy. And I didn't know enough about human relationships, to stop him in that moment and say, "I'm glad you're stopping me right now to tell me that you're about to go off and do heroin, but actually can we have a larger conversation about our relationship?"
Dylan: Right.
Amanda: I just wasn't grown up-
Colleen: Right.
Amanda: I wasn't grown up enough at that point to know that that was on the table. I was a total neophyte in the communication and the relationship department. So that was my very off color weird way of dealing. He also died six months later.
Dylan: Oh my God. Yeah.
Colleen: Oh my gosh.
Amanda: The fear was like it was well founded.
Dylan: Yeah.
Amanda: He didn't seem like a casual drug user who was, just going off and like smoking weed. So I also look back at that episode through the lens of what happened immediately after.
Dylan: Yeah. Yeah.
Colleen: Yeah.
Amanda: And like, how many bizarre stupid things do we do when we're 17? Because certainly, if I-
Colleen: Yeah.
Amanda: If I heard about someone doing that, as a 42 year old, I would really be shocked and appalled. But I also just think that there are things that we do when we're younger and we're teenagers and we're learning the language of emotions and we're learning the potential tools that we have to communicate with each other and my tools at 17 were fucking zero. I didn't know how to be in a relationship when I was 17. I knew nothing.
Dylan: Yeah. Or how to confront drug abuse in a loved one.
Amanda: Clueless.
Dylan: Yeah.
Amanda: All of those things.
Dylan: Yeah.
Amanda: Clueless.
Dylan: Yeah.
Amanda: And I can totally understand Colleen, like how you would see me telling that story in an offhanded way. I think if you saw me on stage at 42, telling that story to an audience, I don't think you would see a whole lot of cavalier, wasn't I cute? Humor in it, the whole thing-
Colleen: Yeah.
Amanda: Feels like a portrait of a dumb 17 year old. But also, I don't just look at that dumb 17 year old and think, "Oh, I was such a dumb 17 year old." I look at that 17 year old with a lot of empathy and sympathy, because I didn't know what else to do.
Colleen: Yeah, that makes so much sense honestly. And hearing you tell the story from your perspective and like what happened, and not hearing it, onstage, recorded live, it's a lot different. And especially knowing that you were 17, because I was 17 when I started college, and I did not have the wits about me to do something like that. And if all the things that I've ever done, were publicized for the world, I don't even know what people would have to say about me. And it just kind of, I don't know, it's very human to hear you talk about it that way and to hear you say that you didn't know how else to cope with things essentially. If I'm getting that right is that it was, that your coping skill was in this fashion for this situation, like you didn't know how else to handle it. I don't know, I can emphasize a lot with you in that regard. And to be quite honest, I just want to give you a hug right now hearing that.
Amanda: Oh, Colleen.
Colleen: Hearing that whole situation and that story. I do.
Amanda: Thank you.
Colleen: I had it written down like on my notes like, "What in the heck, why would you do this?" No, I completely. I can see it now. I get it. It wasn't a performance piece for you. It wasn't something, because that's kind of how it came across, at least from my point of view that it was this thing you were doing to add into your art.
Amanda: Yeah. No.
Colleen: And that-- (AMANDA LAUGHTER) Does not to be the case.
Dylan: I also think that's a weird thing that happens with celebrities, right? Which is like, you're just getting one tiny, and I say you, meaning all of us and I'm for sure, including me in this Colleen, but we get like one tiny little slice into a person who is a public person. And then we hear about this one thing that happened when they were younger or a thing that happened a week ago and we try and fit that into our own understanding of the world. Do you know what I mean?
Colleen: Yeah.
Dylan: So we're part of a system that is built to encourage our judgment of that person, whether it's positive or negative, and we're unable to then share it.
Colleen: Yeah.
Dylan: Yeah. So again, it's just interesting.
Amanda: And even, I really have to stop myself a lot when it comes to, making snap judgments or shaking my head in either direction. And I just sort of look at it, and I'm like, "It's such an obvious mirror." And everyone who has feelings about any of it, including me, there's just so much that it says about me, and what upsets me about me and what upsets me, about my particular situation, and even after all I've been through, it's really hard for me to keep my own judgment of people in check, especially other women. And I just watch it all the time, the constant, like the constant comparison and the constant, where do I stand compared to where she stands and dah, dah, dah. All of that, it just feels like such an epidemic sickness especially between women.
Dylan: Mm. Colleen, this is a kind of impossible question to answer just because it's hard. But do you think there was an element to Amanda being a woman that kind of enabled you to maybe feel that distaste for her more strongly when you wrote this tweet?
Colleen: I really hate that I'm going to say yes. Because it's not something that I am proud of, and it's not something that I was really conscious of, and I think part of that has to do with how painfully critical I am of myself. So I think it is a sense of projection um, if I'm going to be this critical and this harsh with how I deal with myself and think about what I've done. Well, I don't want to give someone else a break. Like you need to be held to the same standards that I hold myself to. But at the same time, I think I also think, I think there's a bias where I'm maybe oftentimes think women might be more capable at certain situations and in certain places than men are, and especially in places where men have had more power. I do feel like I have a bias and I have an un... It's not fair, essentially. Yeah.
Dylan: No, that's like really fascinating introspection Colleen. Amanda, do you feel that you do that at all?
Amanda: Yeah, I mean, I feel I've been on a introspective learning curve about my own sexism, especially in the last five or ten years. And a lot of it is really... I mean, just like Colleen just started her comment that she hates that the answer is yes. Some of it just makes me so ashamed when I really have to unpack and unearth some of my thoughts-
Colleen: Yeah.
Amanda: … and some of my patterns. And it's a vicious circle. And women are so awful to each other. And I really, I mean, if I look at the pie chart of hate that I've gotten on the internet, the vast majority of it has come from other women. But also, when I look at who I... And especially in the course of my early career, everything that really riled me, the things that upset me, the things that pissed me off, the things that made me jealous like, the things that brought out my worst least generous self, it was all my like feelings of scarcity and gross competitiveness with other women. I was way more upset and jealous of my female peers, like, "Why does Fiona Apple get that when I don't? Why does Regina Spektor get to do this and I don't?" Like my peers, my friends.
Colleen: Yeah.
Amanda: And even as a teenager, like I was really allergic to the women who later would become my mentors and heroes, like Amina Franco and Tori Amos. And I grew up in a competitive household with an older sister and I think I really just had that like narrow minded set of scarcity blinders on that. Celebrating and feeling a sense of abundance around and with other women was not fucking allowed. It was either me or her and if she was succeeding, then I wasn't. And if I was succeeding, then she couldn't.
Colleen: Yeah.
Amanda: And I feel like I was taught to think that way and actually unpacking that in my 30s, it was like really enlightening, and oh my God, this is the way I think but, oh my God, my whole life has been so fucked. I've literally walked through my entire life with this really horrific set of sunglasses on. And like looking back, did I have any of those feelings about my male counterparts? And no, like I just didn't, I just wasn't jealous of Jack White. He is out there playing his guitar and doing a great job. And figuring all of that out was just, it just made me feel so ashamed and so gross, but also sitting with it and going, "Okay, here's where you're starting, you're starting from here. This is the only way out is to like pull up this carpet and see the creepy crawlies and like, not put the carpet down because then you're fucked."
Dylan: Yeah. Yeah.
Amanda: And I still have to keep myself in check all the time every day when I see these thoughts bubbling into my head. Like I was saying with reading this Lena Dunham article yesterday. It was almost like a meditation practice. I was like, "Here you are reading this article. What are you feeling? But why? And stop and think about it don't just have these mindless thoughts."
Colleen: Yeah. No, I absolutely that... I can relate to that so much in the sense, when you mentioned scarcity, it dawned on me that that is a huge element of this, is that, I think for a lot of things, especially with career women or women who are in fields that are pretty male dominant. At least for me, I've had this sense of I want to be that woman, I want to be the first woman to do it or, to get the accolade of having a woman attached to whatever it was that I've accomplished. Where it was like, if other people are meeting metrics and are winning awards and things like that, Oh, that's great. But to be the first woman who did this thing, or to be one of the very few women who have been able to do this, kind of created the sense of competition for me that I didn't realize I had until very recently, and I'm about to go into my 30s. And I think that's going to be a huge part of the next decade for me, is in the same way that Amanda said is unpacking that. And that probably is part of the reason that I don't look at other male artists who make me uncomfortable with whatever they're performing or whatever they're doing. I don't have this sense of like, "bleh"
Amanda: Yeah.
Colleen: Like you. It's like, "Oh, you're just weird. Okay." But here's Amanda, and my reaction is completely different. It's like, "Oh, great. Okay, we have a few women in this music scene right here, the one that she's a part of, and that's how you're going to present yourself?" Like, "Please don't do that to us." When that's not what's happening at all.
Dylan: Yeah, we just-
Colleen: Or it's happening in my head and it's happening in a lot of our heads, rather than-
Dylan: Right.
Colleen: The reality.
Dylan: Yeah, I think we see the people next to us, the people that were grouped in with, boxed in with, we see them under a closer and almost more cruel and vicious microscope, a really unfair microscope, I think. And I honestly think that's just the system working, right? I think other people benefit from marginalized groups feeling there's few seats at the table and they have to fight each other to get those seats.
Amanda: That's the oldest trick in the book.
Dylan: Yeah.
Amanda: And that's the old patriarchy trick is, pit all of these women against each other because then they'll never be able to collaborate and get out of there. Yeah, and it's frightening. It's frightening to realize that and also, Neil and I actually have it, we have a term for it. And we use it a lot when we're talking about work and competition and how we feel about other artists and I came up with it because of Tori Amos, I thought it was a good metaphor, we call it the piano string theory. Which is, a piano that's really out of tune actually doesn't sound as out of tune than a piano that's slightly out of tune. So two strings that are almost resonating with each other, but not quite, are going to sound more dissonant. And I was like, that's the thing. It's not the people who are far off in different cultures, in different countries that you can't relate to. It's the woman who's standing right next to you at the same job, who is the same age, who is the same color. Who has the slightly better situation, who you despise, and who-
Colleen: Yes!
Amanda: … you use as this basis of comparison. And that's also just our terrible culture, feeding us this diet of competition and scarcity instead of mutual compassion and celebration. And if she's doing better, then that's better for me, and we will all benefit and all beings will benefit because we're really not fed that script. And I've seen it so much in the music industry. I also went through my own learning curve, like listening to Colleen talk about like, her reaction of listening to the tweet that she sent. I had my own learning curve on the early internet because, I would say really negative things about people, just not thinking about it. This is how I talk with my friends and I'm just going to talk shit about this artist or and I'm just going to complain about this situation. And after getting some blowback for that, and after realizing that I actually had a real voice and that my voice was real. And there it was sitting in the world, and it was going to actually have consequences or an audience. I sort of stopped and made a commitment to myself to not add any negativity to the internet. I think especially also being on the receiving end of it. I was like, "Why would anyone want to be the receiving end of anything like this on the internet?" So I feel like I've learned the same lesson.
Dylan: Yeah. Yeah. And we're all. Yeah, I feel like we're all coming to terms with that too. Colleen, you said you had some other questions for Amanda. Are there any other questions you have?
Colleen: Yeah. It kind of ties into what we're talking about right now. But it comes down to basically Amanda, how do you think people as a whole perceive you? And honestly, how is it different from how you perceive yourself?
Amanda: That's such a good question. But it's such a complicated question. Because it-
Colleen: Yeah, it's a lot to unbox there. (LAUGHTER)
Dylan: Right.
Amanda: Well, I mean, depending who you're talking about. I think there's a lot of people out there who perceive me a lot of different ways. I mean, on the one hand, you've got one side of the spectrum where you've got a super duper Amanda Palmer fan who's willing to wait in line to get their book signed for six hours. These sort of people that you had to deal with at the book signing. (Colleen laughs) And on the other hand, you've got someone who barely knows me but has heard one shred of... All they know is that she's some terrible singer. They don't even really know what my music is like or what I've written about and they just have no information. And then everything in between. But, I don't know, Dylan was like, when I first sat down with Dylan, we were sort of talking about how I would perceive myself and how I define myself and how... What was the question you asked? How I identify?
Dylan: How you identify as an artist and as a person.
Amanda: Yeah. And that's, maybe it's lazy, but I just feel like it's not my job to explain what kind of artist I am. I feel like that's the, everyone else's job or a critics job or whatever. I've definitely, I've been very humbled in my career in the last 10 years, I've taken a lot of knocks but I also, I wouldn't trade any of it. I feel so much. I just feel so much more rounded and three dimensional than I did 10 years ago.
Dylan: And it seems like every step along the way, just from an outsider looking in, at your career or artistic evolution, everything has added to the evolution. Right? Do you feel that's-
Amanda: Yeah.
Dylan: Yeah.
Amanda: I mean, as it should be with every artist and as it should be with every person. If you're not gathering some insight and wisdom from every encounter interaction, mistake. I mean, I feel like I'm going to walk away from this conversation a little different. And I like that about life. I like that I feel like it's a work in progress, and it's actually progressing. And I'm not just getting more unhappy and jaded and better.
Dylan: Yeah. That's great. That's a great trajectory.
Colleen: Do you have questions for me about anything or in regards to that tweet as well or anything you've wondered about me that we haven't addressed?
Amanda: I don't know. I mean, I wonder if just having a conversation with me as a real person, like has made you think anything about... I'm sort of interested in the internet in general, how people use it, what people think when they use it. My whole relationship with the internet and how I do things and how I tweet and how I communicate, is just been a constant weird work in progress for the past 20 years or whatever. And I just wonder if you have any thoughts or reflections about the internet, how we're on it and how you use it, and if this has given you any insight?
Colleen: Yeah, this is giving me a lot of insight on things that I thought I already understood. Like, "Oh, anyone can come across this. Anyone can find it. Your boss can find it." And the approach that I've taken over the last couple of years, is truly understanding that what I put out there somebody else could find it, which was the sense. I had this horrifying like stomach sinking feeling when I saw Dylan's message initially, I was like, "Oh, no, what did I say? What did I say that's coming back to haunt me?" So kind of the approach I started taking was, if my husband found this, would he be proud of me? Would he be like, "Yes, I support that opinion." Or, "What is wrong with you? Like, I've lost respect for you." And so hearing it in this sense, and hearing the people who read these tweets and who are on the receiving end of it, I think, honestly, makes me want to be more cautious with how I approach this with, it could be anybody reading this, it could be a child, it could be the person I'm talking to, and I thought I understood that, but then to face the consequences, is very different. I don't know if that sounds really ignorant. Because it probably is. Right?
Amanda: Yeah. No.
Colleen: No. No. No. Not at all.
Amanda: No. It's the opposite. And actually, I have this, It's funny you should mention your husband. I do this thing with Neil, we sort of have a deal with each other. And we do a couple of things. If I see something that Neil has tweeted, or he sees something that I have tweeted that we think veers into the realm of, it's just too inconsiderate. It's just not the right thing. You don't want to put that kind of negative energy out into the universe. We text each other. And we say, "Delete that tweet." It's just not-
Colleen: I like that.
Amanda: It's just not a good look on you honey.
Dylan: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Amanda: And then very rarely the other partner will defend it and be like-
Dylan: Yeah.
Amanda: But, okay, you're right. And then, 99% of the time we'll delete the tweet. But also we'll send each other text before we tweet it and just be like, "Do you think this is okay to say? Do you think this is, kind and considerate enough given what's going on, dah, dah, dah?" We sort of use each other as editors. And also, even as I'm typing out the texts to Neil, I'm just going like, "Delete. Delete. Delete." I already know what the right thing to say here is, I already know what's unkind and inconsiderate. I already know what's too passive aggressive. And, we all have that wise, compassionate inner critic that sits on your shoulder and is like, "You know that, that's not really (Dylan laughs softly) a nice thing to say, or that it's just not necessary, or that it's just, it's got a little dig in it or it's got a little burb in it." You're coming across as kind of compassion but you've just got to stick that (Dylan laughs softly) one thing in there to prove that you're right or whatever.
Colleen: Yeah.
Amanda: And that's a really wonderful thing about a marriage or whatever the partnership, sometimes I use my different friends of mine as sounding boards for things like that. And then it's sort of like we become the collective better angels of our own nature and we sort of help each other ride those temptations to just fire off the angry tweet or the bitchy tweet or whatever it is, and Neil and I have saved each other's asses a lot doing that.
Dylan: Well, I think there is-
Colleen: Yeah, there's this sense that there's no consequences for what you say on the internet. There's no repercussions for it. Say how you feel, whatever it is when that's still not the reality.
Dylan: And I don't believe that the answer should be everyone privatizing these sentiments and then going off into private spaces where they express the same things just under lock and key. Do you know what I mean?
Colleen: Right.
Dylan: What I'm more interested in doing is doing stuff like this, right? Where it's more just like, "Okay, you said that. That's great. And now let's turn that into a conversation." Right? Turning these kind of negative sentiments into a conversation is I actually think the way forward otherwise, you're not acknowledging how human psychology works.
Colleen: Yeah.
Dylan: If I said that the goal of this project was that everyone now only writes nice things that is not acknowledging how humans operate. And that's not acknowledging how I operate either.
Colleen: Right.
Dylan: But I just think like, it is beautiful to me when people can own up to something that they've said and then push through that.
Amanda: To do the work.
Dylan: Do the work, right. And that's exactly what is happening right now. Which I think is really cool.
Amanda: I think you're doing a beautiful thing Dylan.
Dylan: Oh, I think we're all doing a beautiful thing.
Colleen: Agreed.
Dylan: This is now a love fest.
Colleen: Agreed.
Dylan: I really feel like this is such a-
Amanda: You're the internet's relationship therapist.
Dylan: (LAUGHTER) I'm the internet's relationship therapist.
Colleen: Yeah. (LAUGHTER)
Dylan: This is how I identify.
Colleen: You are the internet mediator.
Dylan: Yes. I'm Dr. Phil of the digital space... Dr. Phil is not a mediator.
Amanda: Dr. Phil-ternet
Dylan: Dr. Phil-ternet. Okay. That's my new name please don't call me Dylan. (LAUGHTER)
Amanda: Oh, that is good. (LAUGHTER)
Dylan: Yes, Dr. Phil-ternet This is me, this is who I am. Hello world. I'll tell my husband that's my new name, and he must take it. Anyway, so we're coming to a close of this really beautiful conversation. Individually, I each asked you separately to name your perceptions of the other. And I want to ask that question again. Amanda, what is your perception of Colleen now?
Amanda: Well, I didn't know very much about Colleen going into this and all I had was a one terrible tweet, which... (COLLEEN LAUGHTER)But I really admire her. I mean, even just from the beginning of this conversation, Colleen, you seem like a very grounded open person. And, you certainly don't seem like a hateful person to me. And yeah, I mean, I was like, of course really sort of anxious and frightened going into a conversation like this because how frightening but, yeah, you strike me as a really beautiful person.
Dylan: And, Colleen, same question for you about Amanda. How do you perceive Amanda now?
Colleen: Very differently, honestly. And I'm a little embarrassed to say that I view her more human than I did before.
Dylan: No, that's a great thing.
Colleen: Whereas before I did see a character. I saw this kind of shock value persona. Whereas now, I see someone. I see a lot... Based on this conversation, I can empathize with a lot of things. And I see this person who, while they kind of, I guess, I don't know how to word this, in a way, it seems like you tried to present yourself as somebody who doesn't care what other people think, when in reality, I mean, everyone's ultimately going to care to some degree. And I think, your ability to push through that and to really present yourself as, "Well, this might be scary, and this is what I'm going to do, it's who I am, and it's real."
Colleen: That's what I see right now, is I see someone who is exactly who they are. And that's not very eloquent. But yeah, I see someone who cares very deeply. Who is very creative and kind of owned up to whatever has happened. And these are the situations. This is what I've done. And this is where I've been, and I really admire that a lot. I admire somebody who can just say, this is it? Yeah. I was just thinking because the bookstore is right up the road and I was like, "Maybe I should actually go read the art of asking."
Dylan: What if this was just a long cloy to get you to buy Amanda's book?
Colleen: I'm kind of curios now.
Amanda: And you're also like, returning to the scene of the crime-
Colleen: Yeah exactly.
Amanda: Where dramatic evening with all my fans.
Dylan: Yeah. Yeah. Wow.
Colleen: Yes.
Amanda: Colleen-
Colleen: No. I have a very good perspective on you now, Amanda, like, part of me wants to delete that tweet, but that's erasing what's happened. And I don't want to hide and I don't want to be shameful for it. It is what it is, but I don't hate you-
Amanda: Oh, thanks.
Colleen: At all in any regard.
Amanda: If you will do it offline, but if you give me your address, I'll just send you a copy of the book. I'd love to.
Dylan: I can transfer that information.
Colleen: That is so kind of you.
Dylan: Yeah. Well, this has been such a lovely conversation.
Amanda: Thank you Dylan.
Dylan: And thank you. Really, thank you both so much for taking part in this. I think this takes tremendous energy from both parties. So, thank you so much.
Amanda: You're an amazing internet therapist.
Dylan: Listen, that's how I was licensed by an invisible internet psychology university. Are there any final... Yeah, Colleen.
Colleen: I was going to just say thank you to Amanda for doing this. Thank you for having this conversation with me and for being open to it in the first place. Because I was afraid to come into this. I've been mildly shaking all day.
Dylan: Colleen.
Colleen: I was afraid.
Dylan: Yeah.
Colleen: I was afraid to own up to what I had done and to say to someone, "I said a really terrible thing about you and let's talk about it." Thank you for having this conversation and for listening to me and for hearing me out. And for being here. Really. Thank you. And same to you Dylan, thank you for starting this. This is-
Dylan: Oh my God. Of course. I love doing this.
Colleen: I love this. I love your podcast. I love this concept. I love who you are. This has been so great.
Dylan: Well, thank you Colleen.
Amanda: All right, yeah. And you too, thank you for taking the time out of your day to do this. And it... Yeah, it takes a lot of integrity to come into a conversation like this. And I'm really grateful that you did.
Dylan: Yeah, me too. Well, Colleen, I hope you have a great rest of your day. And we'll all just be our own little separate humans going about our place in the world.
Colleen: Awesome. Thank you guys so much. This has been great.
Amanda: Bye.
Dylan: Thanks Colleen. Bye.
Colleen: All right, have a great day. Bye, guys.
Amanda: Bye.
[Phone call ends with a hang up sound. The drumbeat from ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals kicks in.]
Dylan [VOICEOVER CLOSING CREDITS]: If you'd like to be a guest on this show, please visit www.conversationswithpeoplewhohateme.com for more information.
Conversations With People who Hate Me as a production of Night Vale presents, Vincent Cacchione is the sound engineer and mixer. Christy Gressman is the executive producer. The theme song is These Dark Times by Caged Animals. The brand new logo was designed by Philip Blackowl with a photo by Mindy Tucker, and this podcast was created, produced and hosted by me Dylan Marron.
Special thanks to Adam Cecil and our publicist Megan Larson.
For this episode, I'd like to send out an extra special thank you to Haley Rosenblum, Michael McComiskey, Fannie Cohen, Jordan Verzar and all of Amanda's team for their help on this conversation.
We'll be releasing episodes every other week. So I will see you in two weeks with a brand new conversation.
Until then, remember, there's a human on the other side of the screen.
[Chorus of ‘These Darks Times’ by Caged Animals plays.]