Dylan Marron

 EPISODE 26: HAPPY & MERRY

Jeremy: Okay so the first thing I'm totally guilty of was reacting to the headline right away.

Dylan: Okay. Great. (LAUGHTER).

[Instrumental of ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals begins to play.]

Dylan [VOICEOVER INTRODUCTION]: Hey, and welcome back to Conversation with People Who Hate Me. This show where I use negative online comments as a starting point for offline conversations. I'm your host, Dylan Marron. This is the last episode of the year. We'll be returning in early 2019 with season three, but I wanted to take a moment to thank you all for tuning in and spreading the word about the show. It's been a big year. We won a Webby Award. Apple podcasts named it one of the best podcasts of 2018. I gave a Ted Talk about why I created it. And sharing this for the first time officially on the pocast, I jut got a book deal to write about all that I've learning and I'm still learning from making this show. There's no release date yet, but I promise to let you know as soon as I have one. It's been a great year and I'm so thankful to all of you for your support. I have one humble request. If you like this show, I would love it if you rated us five stars. Ratings really help new audience members find the show and trust that it's one that other people like. Let's get on with it. Let's get to the show. This is a very special holiday episode where I'll be connecting two strangers who crossed path online over a topic some of us may already be aware of while others might not be: The divide between saying happy holidays or merry Christmas. Lux Alptraum is a written who recently penned an op-ed that discussed what it's like to not celebrate Christmas and what she calls an "inescapable weeks long period of compulsory celebration for nearly everyone." Lux's article was tweeted out, and a stranger named Jeremy came across it and commented, "FFS. Really?", which stands for for fuck's sake. "Really? There are many of us, actually a majority, who love this time of year." First I'll speak to Lux, then to Jeremy, and then I will connect them to each other. And before I do, I just wanted to say "Happy whatever it is do or do not celebrate." I know that some people love the holidays, and for others it can be a really, really isolating and complicated time. To those in the second camp, I get it, I've been there, and I totally understand. Do something great for yourself this holiday season. Okay. That is it. Here is Lux.

[Music fades. Conversation begins.]

Dylan: Hi Lux. How are you?

Lux: I'm good. Thank you for having me here.

Dylan: Oh my God. Thank you for being here. I'm so excited. So Lux, before we begin, tell me about you and I'm looking for the quick opening of Wikipedia entry about you. Not the huge biography. Just give me the juicy, what would fit in a social media biography details.

Lux: Absolutely. I am a freelance writer. Most recently the author of the book, Faking It: The Lies Women Tell About Sex and the Truths They Reveal. For the purpose of this conversation, I am also a Jewish woman.

Dylan: Great. Congratulations.

Lux: Thank you.

Dylan: How exciting. What we are here to discuss is that recently wrote a piece called A War on Christmas: Jews Who Leave the House in December Would Beg to Differ. You open, you're opening line is, I have never been a fan of Christmas.

Lux: Yes.

Dylan: So give me the abstract. Give me the little teaser of why you wrote this.

Lux: Yeah, so first of all the standard disclaimer all writers have to give is that we don't pick the headlines. I don't think that one's super inaccurate, but it would not have been what I would have picked if I were summarizing the piece myself. But the short version is that I'm someone who does not celebrate Christmas.  I have family who do. I have friends who do. I am very happy for them. But as someone who doesn't celebrate Christmas, it's really frustrating for me that there's this spirit of mandatory celebration. And that there's not just people celebrating it, which is great and I'm happy for them, but this sense that everybody has to participate or it lessen other people's celebration.  It's just something where that offices have Christmas parties or it's a holiday party, but it's really a Christmas party. There's this assumption that you are celebrating. That if you aren't celebrating, there's some bad or it means something bad about you. Yeah. I just wanted to say that that can be really harmful. And that especially in a time when reactionary conservatism is on the rise and a lot of people who are religious minorities feel very scared  for legitimate reasons, it can feel really alienating. And it can feel like this reminder that we're not seen as equals.

Dylan: In one tweet response to this article being shared, there was man named Jeremy who tweeted, "FFS. Really? For fuck's sake. Really? There are many of us, actually a majority, who love this time of year. I personally don't celebrate for religious reasons but more for the feeling of the season and bringing together of friends and family. Merry Christmas to you." How does it feel to receive a tweet like this?

Lux: I mean, for me, it doesn't upset me. It more just feels like, "Oh, you're proving my point."  That somebody saying, "I opt out of this and I would prefer to not be included", makes other people defensive about their own  celebration and makes them have to justify why they celebrate, which I find very odd. For me, when I get a comment like that or the even more angry comments I receive from other people, it just feels like, "Oh. Okay. This is exactly what I thought would happen  and you're reinforcing the whole reason why I wrote the article in the first place."

Dylan: Hm. What is your perception of Jeremy? I know you don't know each other, but we form perceptions of the people we scroll past immediately. What is your perception of Jeremy now?

Lux: I mean, my perception. I know that he identifies as a proud conservative,  which that more than the comment is why I'm like, "Oh. Is he going to be angry? Is he going to be difficult", just because people who identify as conservative  often are more difficult. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. Based on the comment alone, I just feel like he is like many other people who I consider secular Christians, who maybe didn't read past the headline. Just see it as something about Jesus, and are like, "No, but it's fine. I'm not Christian and I still do this."

Dylan: How do you feel about talking to him?

Lux: I am a little anxious.

Dylan: Really?

Lux: Yeah. Because I know people in this show are often very, very nice. But I often feel like people come into a conversation like this assuming that I am really angry  and going to yell at them if they say merry Christmas. It's a lot of weight and anxiety. Also, there's part of me that's like, "What if he is just really, really angry and starts saying antisemitic things?", which I don't think is going to happen.

Dylan: But that's your fear?

Lux: But this is the kind of thing, yeah. That it could devolve and get very ugly.

Dylan: That's your fear based on past experience?

Lux: Yeah.

Dylan: Not with Jeremy at all.

Lux: Not with Jeremy at all. That's my fear based on these conversations. That the holidays are emotional for people  and I find that, as we see with all the discourse around war on Christmas, that people often shutdown and really don't pay attention to what the variety of experiences around Christmas are.

Dylan: Totally. With that being said, I'll go talk to Jeremy and then we'll all get on the phone together.

Lux: Great.

Jeremy: Hello.

Dylan: Oh hey. Is this Jeremy?

Jeremy: Yes, it is.

Dylan: Hey, Jeremy. How are you? This is Dylan Marron.

Jeremy: Good. How about yourself?

Dylan: I'm good. I'm good. You were working late last night, right?

Jeremy: Yes. I work at night.

Dylan: Great. But you feel slept. You feel rested. All of those good things. I guess you have your schedule down, right?

Jeremy: Oh yeah. I'm good.

Dylan: Okay. Great. My concern was for nothing. I was worried about your sleep schedule, but I guess you know how it goes.

Jeremy: I'm usually up. I got a son I pick up from school and stuff. I'm usually up at a certain time.

Dylan: Yes, you have the schedule down. Great. I would love to know, completely separate from any Twitter disagreement, only on your terms and only as many details as you're comfortable sharing, tell me about you. What's the quick bio of Jeremy?

Jeremy: So I'm 39 years old. I live in Virginia. I was raised in a military family. My mother's retired Navy. My father spent time in the Navy. I got two kids. I got a 19 year old that goes to college. He's in college now. I got a 17 year old in his junior year of high school.

Dylan: Oh wow.

Jeremy: I'm a married man. Just a family man, overall family man.

Dylan: Love. That's great. So family man, and then I guess a transition to what we're here to talk about. You also appreciate the holiday time.

Jeremy: I love the holiday time. I'm like a kid. I'm a 39-year-old kid.

Dylan: Good. Good.

Jeremy: And it rubs off on my children, too.

Dylan: Listen, I think that's a good way to be. Spread Joy. This is a good, quick transition. Again, we'll be getting into the details of this, but the reason we are even on this call is that you and another person, the author of that article, intersected on the internet, as so many people often do. You have very different takes. You tweeted in response to an article that was criticizing the oppressive nature of a Christmas climate. What set you off about that?

Jeremy: It's just I feel like -- because we're talking about Christmas in general,  but I just feel like there's an attack on so many values in today's day and age. I think a lot of that has to do with our current political environment. However, not everything is religion-based. Not everybody sees it as religion-based. I guess, as a whole for me, the values that the country was founded on and I feel like everything is offensive now. Everything is a problem to somebody. It's probably been that way, but now we have platforms to put that out there.  So it just set me off. It's like, "You know what, it's not about the oppressive nature and the religion about Christmas. I do it because I love it." I do it because I love it. I'm not a religious person by no means. I have my own values. But it's not about that. It's just about the time of the year, being with family and stuff. I don't know. I just feel like everything is always... I think we get bombarded with the constant feeds that we're offered through social media now. We see these things and we have a platform to discuss it. It just really set it off.  That's when you contacted, I was really intrigued to hear her point of view. From her. Her voice herself. That's why. I just feel like there's always an attack on what I feel is our values. Maybe those same values might not apply to everyone else.

Dylan: So, when you pass this on Twitter right, if I were to just pass your account, I would make a fleeting judgment of you. You'd make a fleeting judgment of me. I'm not saying specifically you, specifically me, I'm just saying we make judgments of each other and we have perceptions of each other.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Dylan: Without knowing her at all, what is your perception of the author of this piece?

Jeremy: Just to be blunt and candid,  again I don't know her, but when I read something like that I think of a, I hate to say it like this, but a bleeding heart liberal. That's what I think.

Dylan: A bleeding heart liberal.

Jeremy: I think if anybody goes on my Twitter page they can see I'm a proud conservative.

Dylan: It's your Twitter banner.

Jeremy: I'm not a far right by no means,  but I lean right. I have more central interests, but lean right.  That's what I see is every time I see somebody criticize our values, the first thing I think of was, "Oh God, here we go again.  We're offending someone." Unfortunately, I'm in an area that's very conservative. I react a lot of times on emotion. That's why I welcome this opportunity. I'd like to hear her side because I'm very open minded at the same time. As soon as I read that, I was like, "Here we go. Somebody else is offended by something. Got to complain about something." That was the first thing that came to mind. That's why I started that whole tweet with FFS.

Dylan: YEAH YEAH YEAH For fuck's sake. Right. I think this beauty of this show is that we will have an ability to move past the tweet and then you guys will get to talk to each other.

Jeremy: I think what you're doing is awesome. And that's why I welcome this a lot.

Dylan: Thanks, Jeremy. I appreciate it. So you're about to speak to the author of this article. How are you feeling?

Jeremy: Looking forward to hearing her point of view. I guess the word is...

Dylan: Eager?

Jeremy: I don't want to say excited, but there's a word. I'm anticipating. I'm looking forward to it.  At the same time, I'm nervous. 

Dylan: Okay, great.

Jeremy: When somebody challenges my own point of view and my own feelings, I'll be honest, I don't like to look wrong  or look closed minded. Sometimes I'm nervous because, I guess in so many words, it would make me look bad and make me look foolish. Like, "You're only seeing from your side." I don't want to appear-

Dylan: Well Jeremy like I think you just nailed exactly what all humans feel and only few have the courage to actually admit to. No one likes being wrong.

Jeremy: No.

Dylan: Just welcome to the truth of humanity. No one likes being wrong. I don't like being wrong. You don't like being wrong. I fully get that. I really appreciate that you said that honestly because that's the truth. Any final questions for me?

Jeremy: No. Again, like I said, just to reiterate, I'm excited. I'm looking forward to it.

Dylan: Me, too.

[Phone rings. All guests are now connected.]

Lux: Hi.

Jeremy: Hey. How are you doing?

Lux: Good. It's nice to hear your voice.

Jeremy: Nice to hear yours. I've seen the pictures. I won't lie. I looked you up a little bit on Twitter.

Dylan: Okay. Perfect.

Jeremy: I'm glad to put a voice to the face.

Dylan: Voice to the face. You know what, Jeremy? That could be the alternate title of this podcast is Voice to the Face. (LAUGHTER) Now that we're on the phone, first of all, thank you guys for being here. I love making this show. And when humans actually get to connect with each other on the phone, that's what I love most. I wanted to go over the ground rules with you both. This episode will only go out if you both feel good about the call. The goal is not to humiliate anyone. The goals is not to be like, "Well, we trapped on record and now this is going out." If either of you feel any kind of way, let me know, and it doesn't have to be an episode. Judging from the fact that I've had a great experience talking to both of you, I highly doubt that's going to happen. I just want to let you know the power is within both of you.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Dylan: Other things to tell you. Waiting for this buzzsaw. It's happening. You know what, Jeremy? Of course, it wasn't happening all day and then it just was like, "You know when I'm going to start being a buzzsaw is right now." But that's okay. Maybe we're just going to embrace it.

Jeremy: Sounds good. It adds character.

Dylan: It does add character. I need a release from the buzzsaw. I need the consent to record the buzzsaw then. So Jeremy, Lux, you are on the phone together for the first time. You have previously only intersected on the internet and you're coming from perhaps different positions on a certain topic. Before we get into the topic we're here to talk about, I would just love for you two to get to know each other. Not related to what you interacted about.

Lux: Of course.

Dylan: Do you know what I mean? Just about your lives, your likes, your dislikes, the mundane stuff. Anything you want to share and only the stuff you feel comfortable sharing. Jeremy, let's start with you. Why don't you tell Lux a little about you.

Jeremy: Let's see. I'm a 39-year-old family man. I've got two children. One's in college and the other one is 17 in his junior year of high school. Happily married. I consider myself to be, not to get into politics, but a conservative-type person, more central, but lean right a little bit. That's about the gist of me in a nutshell overall.

Dylan: What kind of stuff do you do for fun? Hobbies? What's a perfect day off for you?

Jeremy: Relaxing and watching football or my son, my youngest boy, he plays ice hockey. I really enjoy going to see him play ice hockey. That's every weekend. Then playing golf when it's warm. I do like to play some golf.

Dylan: Fancy.

Jeremy: That's about the... Messing with my truck, cleaning the car, cleaning the house. (Dylan laughs) I always try to keep myself busy with to-do lists around the house.

Dylan: Listen, I totally get it.

Jeremy: And my wife and I, our roles are reversed at home. She's very mechanically inclined and I'm the cleaner, the everything has to be perfect, the laundry needs to be done, and cook. We catch a lot of hell for that sometimes because we're so totally different on that aspect. We're not your common husband and wife narrator.

Dylan: Great. You're subverting expectations. I love it, Jeremy. Okay. That's wonderful. Lux, handing it over to you. Take it away. Let's hear the biography of Lux.

Lux: Yeah. My name is Lux. I am 36 and I have lived in New York for almost 20 years now. I moved here to go to Columbia. I am a writer. I am a freelance writer, which means I spend a lot of time at home with my cat. I've done a lot of different things, but most of my career has been related to sex education in some capacity. I've worked with teenagers. I've written about the adult industry. Currently, in addition to writing often about sex and feminism and all of that, I also, what I'm very excited about, I started volunteering as a volunteer advocate for sexual assault and domestic violence victims. When I'm on shift, if somebody gets called into the emergency department, I get called in to show up and show that person support and be a person for them in their time of crisis. To just be there and give them whatever they need.

Dylan: Whoa. Amazing. Same question I asked Jeremy, his hubbies, the mundane stuff. Likes? Dislikes? What does an ideal day off look like?

Lux: Yeah. I really cooking, which always feels like a weird hobby to say because you just have to do it to eat. (LAUGHTER) I like cooking. I like reading. I like going to the movies and taking in culture.

Dylan: That is great. Let's kick it off. Lux, you wrote a piece, which the person who titled this piece is not you-

Lux: Yes.

Dylan: … but it's an editor who titled it. Let's just talk about how it was tweeted out. The copy for the tweet says, "A War on Christmas, Jews Who Leave the House in December Would Beg to Differ." Writes Lux Alptraum, "Liberals can be just as bad as their conservative counterparts when it comes to enforcing an oppressive Christmas climate." And you opened this article with, "I have never been a fan of Christmas."

Lux: Yes.

Dylan: Great. That is wonderful. So you confirm that that is you in fact.

Lux: That is me. I confirm that I did open with that divisive statement.

Dylan: Okay Great. Give us the why, the Why you wrote that?

Lux: I'm Jewish. I don't celebrate Christmas personally; although I do have many friends and family who do, and I'm very happy for them. Every time it gets to be December, and sometimes even earlier than December, I find that everywhere I go there's this expectation that I celebrate Christmas. There's Christmas music everywhere.There are-- In offices, there are Christmas parties, or sometimes they're called holiday parties, but they are pretty Christmas heavy. I don't begrudge people their right to personally celebrate this holiday or find meaning or joy in it. But it is really isolating at this time to feel like everyone expects to participate or that, if you don't participate, you're shut out of the fun. What really drove me to write that piece, aside from getting asked to write it by the editor, is that if I say I don't want to celebrate Christmas or Christmas is not for me or if I make a joke about being a one-woman war on Christmas, which is always a joke, what I tend to get is people explaining why I should participate in Christmas.  Or why it's fun or why it's not religious and therefore it's okay even though I'm Jewish. I don't ever really feel heard as to why it's not for me and why it can be isolating at this time of year.

Dylan: Yeah. Great. That's a great explanation of why you wrote it. Jeremy, you tweeted in response to the article, "For fuck's sake. Really? There are many of us, actually a majority, who love this time of year. I personally don't celebrate for religious reasons, but more for the feeling of the season and the bringing together of friend and family." And you ended it in a lovely little way, "Merry Christmas to you." So Jeremy, why did you say that in a tweet?

Jeremy: So the first thing I'm totally guilty of was reacting to the headline right away. (LAUGHTER)

[BREAK]

Dylan: All right. Let's get back to the conversation.

Jeremy: So the first thing I'm totally guilty of was reacting to the headline right away.

Dylan: Okay. Great.

Jeremy: I did that right away. However, I read the article shortly after I had wrote the tweet and then I actually reread the article yesterday after you and I, so just to-

Dylan: To refresh.

Jeremy: Bring it back to the front of my mind. Just to refresh myself. So, right away, all I was thinking was here we go again. And I think I used this yesterday, I said, "Here's another liberal who is trying to shoot down Christmas because of for religious reasons. Because we have to be in the politically correct environment and be accepting of all religions. The first thing I thought of was let's shutdown everything that's Christian, white conservative, whatever you want to call it, that supposedly the country was founded on. Was right there in front of me and so I reacted to it without reading into it more. I was just thinking, "Here we go with the war on Christmas and not everybody celebrates it from the standpoint of religious reasons." I did like something, Lux's, you said, and it made me think right away in your opening statement, was isolation. You kept saying you were isolated. Because I try to be an empathetic person, that made me think right away, I was like, "I couldn't even imagine all this happening around us and feeling isolated."  Because it's supposed to be a happy time of your. Right away I'm starting to, just by you using your word, triggered me to say, "Maybe it's not a happy time of year for everyone else. I reacted to the opening or to the headline initially, just reacted right away, and that's where the for fuck's sake came out, (LAUGHTER) which is probably not the appropriate way to do it. I was actually hoping that Lux would engage in conversation with me.

Lux: Yeah!

Dylan: Great. And now here we are. It all came true. Also, Jeremy, reading the headline of an article and then instinctively responding is, I believe, part of the Bill of Rights of the internet. (LAUGHTER) Do you know what I mean? We all do it. Let's not even pretend you're only the who does it. I'm going to own up to it. I have done it, Jeremy. I just want to come clean with you. I hate to break it to you. You did not invent that, so you're in good company. (LAUGHTER)

Jeremy: I'm glad I don't have to claim that.

Dylan: Good. It's not copyrighted to Jeremy. We're talking about isolation. Lux, expand on that a little.

Lux: Also, I want to give a fuller history of my relationship with Christmas. So I mentioned this in the piece, so you may already be aware. But although I am Jewish, my mother, who is also Jewish, was raised Catholic. I have a number of Catholic family members. My mother's parents were Catholic. My grandfather died when I was a kid, but my grandmother was around until about three years ago. She passed about three years ago, when she was 96. So she was around for most of my life. Christmas was important to her. I spent most of my Christmases with her.  Even though I am Jewish and at my home there has never been a Christmas tree and Christmas has never been my thing, it is something that I have participated in for my grandmother and for my family. I understand the joy that it brings people. It's not. For whatever reason, maybe just because of how strongly I personally identify with Judaism, it's just not my holiday. But I do understand. I know what it brought for my grandmother. I know that my sister has chosen to celebrate it because it's meaningful for her and because her husband grew up with it. So I don't begrudge any of that, but I do feel very frustrated, again, and again isolated when I try to say something like, "This is not really a holiday for me and it's a lot", instead of feeling heard,  what I hear is people explaining why they celebrate it. And people saying, "It's pagan. It started as a pagan thing. It's not about Christ." That's fine for people for whom that resonates, but I'm not pagan either. Or it's like, "Oh, it's yule." But not only am I not German, but my grandparents were holocaust survivors, so that's equally not a compelling argument for me. Really, the strongest thing I can say about isolation, is that if you grow up in this country you cannot escape Christmas specials. So many Christmas specials are built on this idea that anybody who doesn't like Christmas is a bad person and is missing out.

Jeremy: A scrooge or a grinch.

Lux: Exactly. A scrooge or a grinch. It just never really seems to occur to people that, it is fun, it is great, it is meaningful to a lot of people, but it's not for everyone and demonizing people for whom it just doesn't resonate in the same way can just feel really hurtful.

Dylan: Then Jeremy, what brings you the joy of Christmas?

Jeremy: A lot of it is just the season. Like I said, a 39-year-old kid. I decorate my house. I love decorations. I love the Christmas music. Lux, I'm that guy at work that blares it at his desk. (LAUGHTER) Just from your piece. No, I just love the Christmas music. And my kids are off school, and I get to see my family. My mom has this big breakfast every Christmas morning. Every Christmas Eve we go to my father's house, and he smokes something on the smoker all the day. Then we all, my brothers and myself and family, we all have drinks and we eat dinner, and then we all come back the next morning and eat a big breakfast. I think it's the tradition of it all.  It's just the excitement. I'm not going to lie. I like getting presents. (Dylan laughs) I'm like a little kid. On Christmas Eve, I could not fall asleep. Still to this day, I'm like, "I wonder what I'm getting." It sounds really funny,

Dylan: No, No I get it.

Jeremy: I get really excited about it. But I never think about it from a religious standpoint. I never go to church or anything like that. I just think about it's Christmas. It's that time of year. It's my favorite time of year. Between November and December is my favorite time of year. I love the cold weather and the snow and everything that's just associated with it. That's where I get from it. That's what the joy it brings me. It feels like everybody, as fake as it may seem, it feels like everybody's being nice. That's the one time of year people are humans to one another if feels like. I like the good in people that start coming out.

Lux: It's funny because I'm hearing you talk about the celebration and I love Thanksgiving.  Thanksgiving is the celebration that brings out those feelings for me. Or sometimes passover. Because these are, for me, holidays/family celebrations where I love the food. I get to spend time with my family. I really like the traditions. I get it. But I also know that people who are native often don't like it because of the whole pilgrim story and because it's connected to painful history.  I don't know, for me, I'm not going to say, "Oh, I can't celebrate it or I can't take my joy." But on my end, it feels important to say, "It's not for everybody and there's room for different seasons and there's room for different celebrations that all of us can partake in that are meaningful for us individually." I don't want to take Christmas away from people. I just don't want Christmas to be thrust onto everybody all the time.

Dylan: Yeah. Jeremy, do you have a response to that?

Jeremy: No. Actually, I hope this still makes your show okay, because I tend to seem like I'm thinking I agree with Lux a lot more than I probably initially showed. I think Christmas lacks inclusiveness overall.

Dylan: Yeah.

Jeremy: I think the holiday lacks inclusiveness. I mean, you're correct. Christmas is so over-commercialized. It's all about the money and cyber Monday and black Friday, so you can get your deals to get your Christmas presents. I think this time of year, as good as everybody's trying to be, I think we lack the inclusiveness. I think it's missing.

Lux: Yeah.

Jeremy: Even in my area. This is a big military area I live in. We have a lot of people from a lot of different age brackets, different parts of the country. It's a very diverse area I live in, but everything's Christmas. Everything is Christmas. It makes you sit back and wonder, it's like, "How many people are really uncomfortable with this?" Just because I'm comfortable-

Lux: Yeah.

Jeremy: … I never thought about it like that. I mean, it makes sense. Again, like I said, I just read into it so fast that, of course, I was thinking, "New York. Got to be a liberal. (LUX, DYLAN LAUGHTER) Got to be just everything." That's what I saw as soon as I read it. That's what I was thinking.

Lux: I certainly am a liberal in New York.

Dylan: You are correct, Jeremy.

Jeremy: I know. That's fine. It's funny because I actually agree with a lot of what you're saying.

Lux: Yeah.

Jeremy: You and I probably aren't that much different with thoughts to our thought process maybe. It's just you don't think that when you're reading into a tweet or you're reading an article or a headline right away. To be honest, I didn't really sit and think about it as much as I have the last two days.

Lux: Yeah. Well, I'm glad you took time to think about it because that was why I wrote the op-ed. I wanted people to just think more than I wanted to take Christmas away or to shout at people.

Jeremy: I'll be honest. When I reread the article again and the day Dylan called, which was Wednesday, I read it. I was sitting in my truck, waiting on my son who was in an appointment, and I'm sitting there reading it again in the truck. I'm like, "Damn. I feel like an ass." (LAUGHTER) Because I'm just the one making myself look like a fool because everything I went after right away, actually really taking the time to read the article and comprehending and taking what's in it, I kind of agree with it. (LAUGHTER) Now I just look like an asshole. But that's how I was thinking about it. I was like, "Wow." That made me really apprehensive about it.

Lux: But you came and talked about it. I mean, the fact that you were willing to have this conversation was already huge.

Dylan: That's huge. That's a big, big deal. Because, Jeremy, I just want to be transparent with you and, Lux, I want to be transparent with you too. I contact a lot of people to make episodes for this show. A lot of people say no, and a lot of people just ignore right away or block me automatically. So I really have a lot of respect for people who are willing to be like, "I said this thing." And also let's acknowledge the fact that the internet, while I don't think the internet is this inherently bad thing, but the internet enables us to make an immediate judgment of someone and then publish that judgment (LUX LAUGHTER) to the world. Do you know what I mean? It's this wild thing that I don't know how long that is going to be true for all of us. It's fascinating to me. To sum it up is... Wow, the buzzsaw is really going. But that's okay. We're embracing it guys. This is part of it. This is a gift for this show. To sum it up, and do correct me if I'm wrong, it's definitely not Christmas that bothers you. It's not merry Christmas that bothers you. It's just when it is the default.

Lux: Yeah. It's just when it's unconsidered  and when it's said without any awareness that it's not everybody's holiday.  But, you know, to go around and tell someone, "Oh, enjoy this holiday that you don't celebrate",  without really even thinking about whether or not they celebrate it. It's really just about awareness.

Jeremy: I think a lot of people would look at somebody crazy. I say merry Christmas just by default. I would look at somebody crazy if they came up to me and said, "Happy Hanukkah or Happy Kwanzaa." (LAUGHTER) I'm like, "What made you just think to say that to me?" I guess applying it the other way, I get that.

Dylan & Lux: Yeah.

Jeremy: It's just for transparency, I have been discussing this with my son about the phone call and this conversation  after I picked him up from school. And Dylan, you said to me what struck you about the tweet was at the end I put merry Christmas. To be all honest, just to put it out there, my son said it best, he goes, "Dad, you were being a smart ass." I said, "I was." I really was. I did in that tweet, when I put it in, I said, "Merry Christmas." He was like, "You were being sarcastic." I said, "You know what? You're right. I was." Let me just lay that out there.

Dylan: No. That's great. I love the admission.

Lux: I am familiar with the I'm going to trigger you merry Christmas. That, I get, it's about intent. I'm not going to burst into flames because somebody says merry Christmas, but if you're saying it because you want to hurt me, then I'm just like, "Okay. I see what you're doing."

Jeremy: It was childish on my part. I know that.

Dylan: No. That's okay.

Jeremy: That's kind of where I come from sometimes. I'm so sick and tired of the attack on Christmas or what I feel are my values that I'm going to say merry Christmas just out of spite.  Sometimes that's what I do. Exactly like I said in this case.

Dylan: This is not to catch you in anything. It's just I find it funny that you just said the phrase sometimes you say merry Christmas out of spite, which is so against the Christmas spirit. Do you know what I mean? The Christmas spirit.

Jeremy: I know.

Dylan: That really wasn't to blame anything on you. It's just I think funny and interesting. But we all have our nuances and we all have our little idiosyncrasies and things we do that contradict the other things we do.

Jeremy: That's the weakness I have with wearing my emotions on my sleeve-

Dylan: No!

Jeremy: … sometimes and reacting before I really think about it.

Dylan: I don't think wearing your emotions on your sleeves is a weakness. I think it's a cool thing because it's also what's allowing you to be on this call as a person who is totally kind and capable of listening. Do you know what I mean? That, if you're saying that you're wearing your emotions on your sleeves is a bad thing, I would just have to argue it's also the cool that makes you a nice human being who can be on this call and talk to someone and like embrace nuance.

Jeremy: And tell us the negative stuff or something that's just really off the wall.

Dylan: The first time I spoke to you both I asked you to name your perceptions of each other. Now I'm curious how those have changed. You don't need to name what your original perceptions are but, Lux, how has your perception of Jeremy changed?

Lux: I'm pleasantly surprised to see that you are really thoughtful, and you are embracing nuance, and you're willing to admit when it's like, "Oh, that was a knee jerk reaction and now that I've thought about it more, I see it differently." Those are all qualities that I think are really important and good in people. Yeah, no, I think you're really thoughtful and I appreciate that.

Jeremy: Thank you -- thank you

Dylan: Jeremy, same question for you, how has your perception of Lux changed?

Jeremy: So my first perception. I'll tell you what was. I first thought, "Oh God. Here we go. A bleeding heart liberal." Actually, you made me think a lot the last few days, actually, and you have made me see another side of it. It wasn't all about you know what, because I hate Christmas, Christmas should be banned and outlawed. (Dylan & Lux laugh) And that's how I was thinking. I think that you have a very level-head and reasonable thing about it. Hey, it's not just your thing. I'm not going to tell everybody else it's not their thing, but it's just not your thing. You have taken other's feelings into consideration. Instead of making it just about you, you've made everyone else, you're just telling how you personally feeling about it. Really you are open-minded. You see another person's side of it. You seem to be just as open-minded as I am. Again, like I said, I hope the show is okay for you to, Dylan, because I think we agreed more than we disagreed. (LAUGHTER)

Dylan: No. Listen. Actually, I cannot tell you both how much I love this call. As you both know, the title is Conversations with People Who Hate Me, but that's only referring to the way it feels online, to kind of the animosity and the way we express it on line. The truth is, the big secret of this show, (LUX LAUGHTER) and anyone who listens to it knows, is it's actually a show about love. It's actually this really loving gushy-mushy show where people are like, "Oh yeah. That's just a human who was on the other side of the screen."

Jeremy: I can tell you that Lux, this call and you, will make me think more. Probably and like I try to stay open-minded, but probably for the rest of my life as I approach things and see things. When I say things like merry Christmas or when I see somebody feel uncomfortable, you'll make me think more about it. So you've changed my perception of it. Somebody you don't even know, you just know my voice and just a sarcastic ass tweet I sent you (LAUGHTER) ended up turning around possibly on me and might have changed my perception of some things and actually had a positive impact on me as a person.

Lux: Wow. I mean, that's all any writer wants.

Dylan: All I have to say is I can truly not think of a higher compliment, Jeremy. So thank you so much for saying that.

Lux: Thank you.

Dylan: This means so much.

Jeremy: No. That's how I feel.

Dylan: I guess we will leave it here. But are there any final things you two want to say to each other?

Lux: I just want to say that I really genuinely hope you have a lovely Christmas season and that this holiday is a wonderful one for you.

Jeremy: And I hope you enjoy the time of year and I hope you... I'm trying to think of the best the way to say it. I know you're happy, but I hope that people are more thoughtful going forward of other's people's opinions and feelings and I hope you see that more. I think you need to continue to have these conversations with people and put out your opinion pieces. Because, like I said, you changed my viewpoint today. And you've impacted me. And I think with that kind of positivity you could do that with a lot of people.

Lux: Thank you

Jeremy: So keep going forward, doing what you're doing, and you're doing a good thing. You both are doing a good thing. With your platform, Dylan, that you're providing us today and, Lux, with your opinion pieces. Not everybody's going to agree, but I appreciate your taking the time to hear my side. I appreciate you giving me the time to hear your side.

Lux: Thank you so much.

Dylan: Of course. And thank you, Jeremy. And thank you both so much for doing this. I know this is a big thing., I know that people get really anxious when they come on this show and they leave not anxious at all.

Jeremy: I was. I was nervous.

Lux: We both were.

Dylan: Yeah. But now not, so that's great. I guess with that being said, this has been such a pleasure. I will say both happy holidays and merry Christmas to both of you.

Jeremy: You too. You too.

Dylan: And I guess we will all see each other on the internet.

Lux: All right. Looking forward to it.

Jeremy: Definitely will.

Dylan: Sounds good. Bye, Jeremy.

Jeremy: Bye bye. You all have a good one.

Dylan: You too.

[Phone call ends with a hang up sound. The drumbeat from ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals kicks in.]

Dylan [VOICEOVER CLOSING CREDITS]: If you'd like to be guest on this show and take your own online conversation and move it offline, please visit www.conversationswithpeoplewhohateme.com for more information.

Conversations with People Who Hate Me is a production of Night Vale Presents. Vincent Cacchione, is the sound engineer and mixer. Christy Gressman is the executive producer. The theme song is These Dark Times by Caged Animals. The logo was designed by Rob Wilson. This podcast was created, produced, and hosted by me, Dylan Marron.

Special thanks to Adam Cecil, Emily Moler, and our publicist Megan Larson.

Remember, there is a human on the other side of the screen.

[Chorus of ‘These Darks Times’ by Caged Animals plays.]