Dylan Marron

 EPISODE 23: UNFRIENDED

Dylan: What is the status of your Facebook friendship right now?

Andrew: I don't think we're friends. Are we?

Dylan: You're not friends? Wait, so who unfriended whom?

Andrew: Oh God, I don't even, I mean probably me, or you, I don't know.

Jabari: It's definitely you, Andrew. Andrew you-- (laughter.)

Andrew: It was definitely me?

Dylan: Jabari, it wasn't you?

Jabari: No.

Andrew: Then I guess it was probably me.

Dylan: Oh my God.

Andrew: Yeah, but you did send me that really shitty meme.

[Instrumental of ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals begins to play.]

Dylan [VOICEOVER INTRODUCTION]: Hey, and welcome to Conversations with People Who Hate Me, the show where I take negative online conversations and move them offline. I'm your host Dylan Marron. Now, in some episodes I chat one on one with folks who wrote negative things to me directly, while other times I moderate conversations between strangers who clashed with each other. Today I'm moderating but not between strangers.

My guests today are friends. Or they were friends. They are "unfriends."

Jabari and Andrew had been Facebook friends for over a decade when they clashed over their political views during the 2016 election, but it's not how you might expect. They are both active participants on the left. Andrew is proudly a Democrat, while Jabari supports, and even ran for local office, with the Green party. Their disagreements online, which were ultimately about how to best achieve progress, became so toxic that one unfriended the other.

First, I'll speak to Jabari, then I'll speak to Andrew, and then I'll connect them on a group call where they'll have their first ever extended offline conversation about their disagreement. So let's get started. Here is Jabari.

[Music fades. Conversation begins.]

Dylan: I don't want to brag but we're starting a minute early.

Jabari: Oh. (Laughter.)

Dylan: So, Jabari, you get bragging rights babe.

Jabari: Oh nice.

Dylan: Yeah. Hi.

Jabari: Hi.

Dylan: How are ya?

Jabari: Good, how are you?

Dylan: I'm good. Tell me about you.

Jabari: Wow, so broad. I'm a 30 year old artist, activist, teacher, that is trying to figure out, very recently, where I should steer my life, and it's steering me a lot towards politics and away from the arts but in a good way because I really enjoy political organizing now. I'm from New York, I'm from Brooklyn originally, I've been here almost my entire life except for when I left for grad school. I'm vegan, which we tell everybody.

Dylan: So Jabari, you recently ran for office.

Jabari: Mm-hmm.

Dylan: What motivated you to do that?

Jabari: I had been doing a lot of activism for years and years and all the rallies, all the protests, but also drafting the petitions, getting them signed, fighting for this, fighting for that, and it stopped feeling like enough after Trump was elected. People had mentioned to me on social media I should think about running, and I remember just standing in the rain the night after he got elected at Trump Tower shouting until I was hoarse and thinking this isn't going to do anything. This isn't enough. I figured I'd run for office and I'd run at the local level because that's where you can make a big difference. I ran on the Green party ticket.

Dylan: Maybe people listening only know Republicans and Democrats, right? What is the Green party?

Jabari: So the Greens, one thing in the name, which is just ecological wisdom and ecological justice. So, we're for the environment and that's what people hear when they say Green, but we're also for social justice, and for peace, and for grassroots democracy.

Dylan: Now, let's backpedal a little to the 2016 election because the reason we even started talking about you being on this podcast was that you, like almost all of us, were actively posting things online. Now, you are actively posting in support of Bernie, right?

Jabari: Mm-hmm.

Dylan: And then you, as you told me, you were actively supporting Jill Stein.

Jabari: Mm-hmm.

Dylan: What was the kind of pushback you got for that?

Jabari: You know, it's crazy. I got a lot of pushback for the Jill Stein--

Dylan: Really?

Jabari: Which is, well yeah, I mean people felt like I was going to ruin America, is what it felt like to me. The amount of efforts to get me to fall in line and vote for Hillary Clinton, which seemed to me very unnecessary, especially given that I lived in New York and it's going to go blue anyway, but also just the sense of like your vote doesn't belong to any particular candidate. I mean, I was really interested in building a third party, and I knew that if the Greens reached 5% of the vote that we get all these goodies like federal funding and ballot access in all these States. I was like, "Well, I'm going to build a multi-party system." So--

Dylan: What would you say to someone, as I'm sure you've gotten a lot, who said that by voting for Jill Stein, you elected Trump?

Jabari: I would say that half the country did not vote. So this notion that if only people hadn't voted for Jill Stein, they all would've voted for Hillary Clinton is to me, as ridiculous as saying, if only Hillary Clinton hadn't ran, all our voters would have gone to Jill Stein making Jill Stein win, which is not how voting works. When you don't have a candidate that represents you, you just don't vote. That's evident from the half of the country that does not vote. They're apathetic. I would also mention that I begrudgingly, despite my differences with Hillary Clinton, went down to Pennsylvania to knock on doors and try to broker some vote trades. I tried to broker vote swaps in swing States where I would get people in swing States to vote for Hillary in exchange for somebody in a safe state like New York or California voting for Jill Stein. I wasn't super successful, I brokered two votes, one in Pennsylvania, one in New Hampshire. I think she lost, I think Hilary lost both of those.

Dylan: That's all there were. Those were the only two people who voted in the 2016 election, so congratulations. That's really great. I remember in the 2016 election I was seeing your posts, right? And seeing just the war that was happening in the comment sections, but it wasn't Trump supporters who were attacking you, it was liberals who were very pro-Hillary.

Jabari: It was liberals, it was progressives, it was people that were for Bernie, but decided to go for Hillary. It was tons of things.

Dylan: When I first approached you for this podcast to see if you wanted to have any of these conversations, you told me about a friend of yours actually named Andrew, who you are friends with IRL and not friends with online. Tell me about the nuance of your relationship with Andrew.

Jabari: So, what's interesting with Andrew is that we met in 2005, 13 years ago now, at a high school acting competition, at the end of high school, and probably did not talk again for 11 years until the 2016 primaries.

Dylan: But, you became friends on Facebook.

Jabari: We became friends on Facebook.

Dylan: The crucial inciting incident.

Jabari: Yes, yes. And that was shortly after we met. So we were friends on Facebook, but not talking, because you have many friends on Facebook you don't talk to. Until ... unless than election happens like 2016, and then you talk, because I was a strong Bernie supporter, and he was a strong Hillary supporter, and I mean, we did not see eye to eye.

Dylan: How did that manifest in online speak?

Jabari: He would troll some of my posts, I would troll some of his posts, and it would escalate just because I think that's the nature of Facebook arguments, and especially if you start to develop a rivalry with somebody on Facebook, which I'm not sure if everyone has one, but I definitely started a few in the 2016 election, and it ultimately ended with him unfriending me on Facebook, probably I think during the primary still.

Dylan: Oh, so you're not currently friends on Facebook?

Jabari: No, we're not currently friends on Facebook, but--

Dylan: Oh my God.

Jabari: Yeah, it's been approaching two years now.

Dylan: Oh, I didn't know that.

Jabari: Oh, I didn't tell you, yeah.

Dylan: Oh my God.

Jabari: We'll talk on Facebook messenger. We're not friends.

Dylan: Oh my God. That's like such a new modern thing, that you are still connected on messenger, but not legally friends according to Facebook.

Jabari: Yeah, and my posts are public, his posts are public, so we can see what the other person's posting.

Dylan: That's so funny. So he made a post imploring his New York City friends to vote in the 2017 elections when you were running, and in it he made a point to say don't vote for Jabari Brisport.

Jabari: Yes.

Dylan: How did that feel?

Jabari: Terrible. Also because I saw it after I lost. (Laughter.)

Dylan: Oh, great. So you lost, and then--

Jabari: Well I lost, and he reached out. He sent me a message saying, "Great job, again, you went up against an incumbent and that's pretty, you know, 30%'s really admirable, especially Green party." I was like, "Oh awesome." And then I started going through his wall again, and I'm like, "Oh, Andrew's pretty nice," and then I saw that post--(laughter).

Dylan: And you were like, "Oh."

Jabari: I was like, wtf? What is that?

Dylan: I mean, is there anything that you said in your back and forth with Andrew from the 2016 election to your 2017 election that you regret?

Jabari: Yeah. I would say after Trump got elected, I think the night that he won, I kind of sent him like this gotcha picture because I was just, I stumbled onto his wall and there was this picture he had post of himself just really welling up with tears, and holding his face, and his hands. So I kind of juxtaposed what he had said with the image of him crying, and it was like, "Well this is -

Dylan: Kind of, what's the expression? Shoving his face in the dirt.

Jabari: Rubbing his face in it or--

Dylan: Yeah.

Jabari: But yeah, and that was, I think tactless, and also he was probably still very upset and this was I think the day after Trump got elected when New York was so oddly silent. I sent that to him and then he didn't see it for months.

Dylan: And then you got the notification that he saw it.

Jabari: Yeah.

Dylan: Have you and Andrew ever had like a long sustained conversation offline about your differences?

Jabari: No.

Dylan: Are you interested in it?

Jabari: Yes.

Dylan: Okay, great. Well you've come to the right place. Amazing.

Jabari: I'm really nervous all of a sudden.

Dylan: Really?

Jabari: And it's not you. I know you're very ... You're just a great host and great at making people feel comfortable. But it is like, it's awkward to talk in person to someone that you've argued with online because we all say things online that we wouldn't say in person, and we also know we say things online we wouldn't in person, and I just, I'm already going through my head of all the, just things I said that I wouldn't have said to his face.

Dylan: I think the same for him. It's not like a one way street with you guys specifically. I mean--

Jabari: True.

[Solo conversation ends. Phone rings. Second guest picks up.]

Andrew: Hello?

Dylan: Hey, is this Andrew?

Andrew: Hey, yeah.

Dylan: Hey Andrew, it's Dylan.

Andrew: How's it going?

Dylan: I'm good. How are you? Wait, how was your amazing trip?

Andrew: Oh my gosh, I mean it was just incredible.

Dylan: Yeah.

Andrew: Yeah, it was adventure in every sense of the word. I mean it had, there was the great parts and then the kind of scary things going wrong parts, but then those also end up being great in retrospect, and the stories, and all that stuff. So, it had all like the good and the bad and everything in between, which is kind of all you can hope for.

Dylan: Okay, great. So I know you have lunch, you said at 1:30, right?

Andrew: Yeah.

Dylan: Okay. So we'll--

Andrew: Which I didn't know about.

Dylan: No, that's okay. We'll bang this out. I just want to know in as many details as you're comfortable telling me, tell me about you.

Andrew: Okay. Let's see. I am a 31 year old former actor and performer, but I now am going to grad school in political management. I am working with the National Parks Conservation Association lobbying for protecting national parks, which is a joy right now.

Dylan: Yeah, seriously. (Laughter.) You have your hands full.

Andrew: Uh-huh. Working on a campaign for congress in Virginia for 2018, and I'm also an avid rock climber, and I work at a climbing gym in DC. I do all sorts of crazy things to keep myself busy.

Dylan: All sorts of things. So Andrew, you and Jabari got into what we can say is a very typical 2016 series of Facebook fights with each other, and it was centering around the 2016 election, specifically from the vantage point of like Jill Stein versus Hillary, right?

Andrew: Yeah, I mean I think it eventually, or it initially was like the Bernie-Hillary thing, and then evolved into the Stein-Hillary thing once Hillary got the nomination.

Dylan: What was it that kind of built up the online animosity between you guys?

Andrew: So, what I always say is that with Bernie, I actually agree with him on pretty much every single policy, every single thing that he wants to see done is something I would be so happy about. However, if I don't think that that's possible in the environment we live in, and if he doesn't have a plan to pay for those things, and if he doesn't have... If I look at the environment we're in, and Congress is still going to be run by Republicans, and so if there's literally no pathway to achieve those goals, I think talking about them and making promises that you know you can't fulfill is disingenuous. So for me, I'm a pragmatism over perfection kind of person. I think making slow, steady progress while it's not as exciting, and it doesn't make the best bumper stickers, and doesn't rile up the biggest crowds, it actually hurts fewer people as we get slowly towards the place we want to be, as opposed to the Bernie-or-Bust, Jill Stein wing. While I think they are actually right in the sense that I think Trump winning is going to get us closer towards progress faster than had Hillary won, but how many people are going to have to get hurt or die in the process? Like that's the difference. So, I'm not willing to let those people get hurt for progress, but the people who support the Bernie-or-Bust or Jill Stein method when they know their candidate can't win, and that the support of that candidate helps Donald Trump in this instance win, that to me signals that you care more about the policies you want enacted than you do about the real people's lives that are at stake, and that's something I can't get behind.

Dylan: You made a public post right before the 2017 elections, the 2017 local elections, where you were imploring your New York friends to vote, but you said please don't vote for Jabari Brisport. Why? What inspired you to write that?

Andrew: I guess we just operate from two very different philosophies on how to achieve progress, and I think, personally, that his philosophy is not only somewhat dangerous but also just ill conceived.

Dylan: So correct me if I'm wrong, to sum it up, you agree with him on an ethical level, but on a practical level you guys feel like you're polar opposites,

Andrew: I think that's generally accurate.

Dylan: So in this era of social media and in your exchanges with Jabari, did you ever feel like attacked by Jabari?

Andrew: Oh, I mean totally, come on, but also so did he, I mean we both dish it pretty well. I mean we ran into each other in real life at a rally in early, probably like early 2017, and we're totally cool and totally cordial with each other and just laughing like, "Oh my God, good to see you, it's been forever." And that was after we'd already been pissed at each other online, right? In real life, you see each other and all that's not there.

Dylan: So you and Jabari have both dedicated yourself to politics and public service, right?

Andrew: Yes, yes.

Dylan: But in very different ways. So, what to you is the most productive way to take part in the political sphere?

Andrew: I don't think there's any one tried and true, like across the board, best way to be involved. I think just doing whatever you feel you're capable of doing is the best. For me, I just happen to be somebody who is so incredibly passionate about this stuff, and I live it, and eat it, and breathe it, and sleep it.

Dylan: I also think maybe the reason you and Jabari clashed online is because both of you have that passion.

Andrew: Absolutely, right? Both of us are very strong personalities.

Dylan: Is there anything you want to express to Jabari that is hard to express online?

Andrew: I would be interested to actually hear him a little bit more and actually get an opportunity to listen to the why's and the... Because I think what's interesting is I don't think people really listen online, because even though all the words are spelled out right in front of you and you can read them three, four, or five times if you wanted to, people don't. But when you're in person with somebody, you're much more cognizant of being an asshole in like person than you are online.

Dylan: So, now I guess both of you will get that opportunity.

Andrew: Sounds good.

[Phone rings. All guests are now connected.]

Jabari: Hi, hi, how's it going.

Andrew: Hey.

[BREAK]

Dylan: Jabari, Andrew, we're here on the phone together.

Jabari: Awesome.

Andrew: Yes we are, how about that?

Dylan: To start us off, is there anything that you said to the other person on this call that you now regret?

Andrew: I honestly have a very poor recollection of specific things. I mean, I know it got pretty bad at one point.

Dylan: What does pretty bad mean?

Andrew: Jabari, maybe you could... Honestly, I'm just going to ask you, because I can't ... Was there something that I sent you, that then gave you the impetus to then send me that awesome screenshot you made? (Laughter.)

Jabari: Yeah, yeah, no problem. It was in one of our many Facebook battles where we were going back and forth and riling each other up to the point where I think you said, "I can't wait for all you Sanders supporters' dreams to be crushed."

Andrew: Right, right. I don't actually think I've ever called you a shit human being, or something, or that you're... I mean, if I have, I apologize because I don't think you are, but--

Jabari: I don't think you are either.

Dylan: Oh, guys.

Andrew: All right, great.

Dylan: Look, the world is beautiful.

Andrew: But even though the words themselves may be taken out of context and said differently, don't really sound that bad, the feeling that I was feeling behind writing them was really angry, was really actually like very emotionally invested in it. So, it's not so much that I don't agree with the stuff behind what I said, but maybe the way I did it, or said it, or whatever I could have done in a better, less petty way.

Dylan: Jabari, same question for you. Is there anything that you regret saying to or about Andrew on Facebook?

Jabari: Yeah, definitely that screenshot meme for Andrew. I mean in the moment it felt like the right thing to do just because, truthfully, I know part of it was the text saying "I can't wait for your dreams to be crushed," and like, my dreams were crushed.

Dylan: Yeah, but then you found a photo of Andrew with his dreams crushed.

Jabari: Yeah, and it just felt like the right... I wanted to find a wound that you had and rub salt in it.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. You did a good job of that. (Laughter.)

Jabari: So, sorry.

Dylan: Salt in the wound.

Andrew: Mission accomplished.

Dylan: Well it seems like you both had wounds and you both knew where the salt was.

Jabari: Yeah.

Andrew: I think that's probably pretty accurate. Yeah.

Dylan: Okay, great. Okay, perfect. Now, I want to kind of turn this conversation a little more macro because this kind of contentious exchange that you had is actually not specific to the two of you, right? This was happening in comment sections and in inboxes all around the internet where there was this Jill Stein versus Hillary battle to the death. Do you guys think that that was worthwhile?

Jabari: I don't know if anybody changed anyone's minds.

Dylan: Yeah.

Jabari: I mean, I don't know. I think it even made things worse. People really entrenched themselves on Facebook, and I've just seen it in comments section, and nobody walks away from a Facebook argument feeling like they should change their mind. I think they walk away and start doing Google searches to find extra data or research for why they are right because they have to be right.

Dylan: Yeah.

Jabari: It's out in public now.

Dylan: And we do live in a time when you can find the data to back up your point. You know what I mean? It's less like finding... You ask a question and then search for an answer, it's more you have an answer and you search for all of the evidence to back up that answer, right?

Jabari: Yeah.

Dylan: Yeah.

Andrew: Absolutely. Actually, I think Jabari's a hundred percent correct on that. My dad is a political psychologist and recently was part of a paper that got published that definitively showed that when you actually argue with somebody about policies or politics in general, all you're doing is strengthening their own beliefs. So basically, the more you challenge somebody's opinion, the stronger their arguments become. If I'm a Hillary person arguing with a Jill Stein person, by doing that and trying to convince them they're wrong, I'm actually helping that person develop better arguments to support their own position. Learning about that, and actually this whole last two years or so has made me sort of start to reevaluate how we have these conversations. Just because if trying to convince somebody does the opposite, then why do we keep doing it? Or why do I keep doing it, right?

Dylan: Yeah. So I guess I just need to bring this up. It feels like all of this is kind of a moot point because neither Jill Stein nor Hillary nor Bernie are president and Trump is president. So, do you feel like what you engaged in was just fruitless infighting or do you think there was a purpose to your arguments online?

Jabari: I wouldn't say it was fruitless. I mean I learned a lot. So for me personally, it really shrinked my sense and honed my sense of what I want out of politics, but in terms of political change, I would say it did not accomplish much, if anything.

Andrew: All right, so this is the part where this could get contentious--

Dylan: Okay babe, bring it on.

Andrew: Because I honestly truly believe that a lot of the discussions that took place on social media surrounding the Bernie versus Hillary, Jill versus Hillary, how terrible Hillary was, genuinely hurt her in the polls. So, it's really hard for me to say that the negative discussions, and the anger, and the arguing, had no impact because I think it did have an impact. I think it had a negative impact.

Jabari: Okay. I mean, so obviously I disagree, but mostly because I know that I had made up my mind so early on, even in regards to Jill, I knew Jill was going to be my number two back in like I would say February of the 2016 election, and I don't know, I just don't know of anybody who made their decision to vote based on what they were seeing in Facebook arguments. It seemed like the arguments themselves were the product of people having staked out who they were going to vote for originally. I think it's just like social media was more of a reflection of what was already in people's minds. I just, I have a hard time buying this narrative that there is this voter out there that was maybe on the fence and they just, they saw enough memes and they decided to flip over a candidate.

Dylan: Did you individually feel like you got something out of your Facebook battle with each other?

Andrew: I honestly do learn a lot through having them.

Dylan: I mean, even... Did you feel like you got something out of the barbs?

Andrew: Oh no. That's just bullshit.

Dylan: Okay, great.

Jabari: Yeah, I can't think of anything. I mean, I just I learned how to be a better debater, I guess.

Dylan: Yeah.

Jabari: Andrew's a good debater.

Andrew: I mean, that's just the ego shit coming into it, right? It gets to a point where you're just trying to win instead of learn something, or convince, or whatever you're trying to do, right? You're just trying to look better.

Dylan: Yeah. I would love to hear from you guys--this is very macro. Do you believe in incremental change or radical change in terms of achieving progress?

Andrew: I believe that all radical change comes incrementally. I think that every giant change that has ever happened in this country was boiling under the surface for decades, and it all was a process that you can trace back to individual people taking steps and then it building on the next step, and the next step, and the next step, and it builds into a movement in a wave until it gets to that tipping point, right? Then it tips and then it happens, right? And it feels like it happened overnight, but it didn't. Nothing has ever happened overnight. For me, I'm thinking about the human cost of progress, and yes, I think blowing up the system and burning it to the ground makes change happen faster, it also hurts way more people in the process. So, what we're seeing right now, I think we're going to, because of Donald Trump, get faster progressive change than we would have under Hillary Clinton. I think the Bernie-or-Bust people were right about that. However, look at the human cost right now.

Jabari: Yeah, I like to, just for the record, say, I'm not an accelerationist. I also disagree with the people that were saying, "Let's make it get really bad first in order to speed up progressive changes." In terms of radical versus incremental, I hear the argument about things moving incrementally and eventually leading to radical change, but I just think that in order to even get it to move, get the needle to move, we just have to be radical, and we have to have make radical demands, and that comes from my experience in the gay marriage movement where I even started out thinking I was the reasonable practical one saying that gay marriage wouldn't happen, maybe not even in our lifetimes, but that we should fight for civil unions first, and that was the accessible, practical, reasonable thing to do and once we won those, we would get marriage and eventually being swung over by people saying, "No, we're going to demand for equality and nothing less." And watching them fight, and fight, and yeah, it happened incrementally state-by-state until it stopped being incremental. That's kind of where I see how the best victories happen is when you know you're right and you resolutely demand it, and you push for it, and like a tug of war you pull with all your might and it moves a tiny, tiny bit, and every little bit until the whole team comes crashing over to your side.

Dylan: So, I know I'm just like a fly on the wall here on this conversation, but I have to say I feel like in this conversation about what is the most effective way to get change and listening to you guys, I feel like it takes both of you. I feel like it takes... it is the tension actually between Andrew, your perspective, and Jabari, your perspective, that actually pushes to that. I feel like every movement has benefited from radical people who pushed equality, equality, equality, and then the people who were at the other end of the seesaw saying incremental, incremental, incremental, and then either way, that energy between them and that tension between them, created the change.

Andrew: I think that's an absolutely correct assessment because, also, I'm not perfectly consistent on this either. I don't think that incrementalism is always correct and I don't think radicalism is always wrong. It's not so much that, so, the people who feel like I do, I don't think we necessarily like to brand ourselves as incrementalists or whatever. But, it's just working within the structure of the system that currently exists, right? Not wishing that the system were something else, but seeing it for the way it is and how can I play the game the best I can under the current rules, the way they're set up, so that we can win. I've always felt that it's massively important to have people who are on the far extremes of the party who can rally that base and have people who are able to negotiate around that middle section, right? You need both of those. The problem is, you need them working together, not for completely separate aims. That's the issue that we run into I think sometimes.

Jabari: Yeah, I would agree about the working together thing and just like, I mean that comes up for me too. I'm in the Democratic Socialists of America and we argue internally on our own just about electoral politics, because a solid base inside the organization wants to work within the democratic party electing socialist as Democrats, and then another solid base wants to work outside the democratic party to the left of it, and we argue about it all the time, and then the people release their platforms, and people released their... because it goes back to like what your dad was talking about, Andrew too, with just the arguments getting stronger, this person releases their 30 page point thing of why we need to be working outside the party, and then the other side has their 30 page, whatever. We had a great compromise in New York City where the organization endorsed one Democrat for the 2017 elections and one Green for the 2017 elections. And in both scenarios, got around 500 people out to volunteer and work on both campaigns. It's good to be able to work together on a common goal, even if we don't all agree on every single like bit of minutia.

Andrew: Yeah. I mean, I agree. Because the thing that frustrates me honestly with all of it is that I think Jabari and I probably agree, again, on like 96% of things, right? But yet we let that 4% drive a wedge in between us. I think there is room for these two sides to work together, but the problem is it takes more nuance than we're able to get into on social media I feel like, and memes don't allow for nuance, and any sort of productive relationship, I feel like between these two sides is going to have levels of nuance.

Dylan: Maybe, please confirm, but this conversation had a little more nuance than your Facebook back and forth?

Jabari: Just a tiny bit. Just a smidgen. (Laughter.)

Andrew: I was literally just going to say that. Yeah, just like the smallest ever so slightly.

Dylan: Yeah, yeah. So, I have to ask, what is the status of your Facebook friendship right now?

Andrew: I don't think we're friends, are we?

Dylan: You're not friends. Wait, so who unfriended whom?

Andrew: Oh God, I don't even, I mean probably me, or you? I don't know.

Jabari: It was definitely you Andrew. Andrew you--(Laughter.)

Andrew: It was definitely me?

Dylan: Jabari, it wasn't you?

Jabari: No.

Dylan: Andrew?

Andrew: Then I guess it was probably me.

Dylan: Oh my God.

Andrew: Oh, yeah, but you did send me that really shitty meme. So--

Dylan: Guys, guys, we were doing so well. We were doing so well. Okay, let's--

Andrew: No, I know.

Dylan: Back on track, do you think that maybe after this call you would become Facebook friends again?

Jabari: Up to you Andrew?

Andrew: No, no, listen, I actually, yeah, I mean I personally, I would totally be friends again, that's not even a question in my mind because I'm trying to be way more conscious of... What happened in 2016 was a result of echo chambers, right? Was about sort of everybody cultivating the perfect newsfeed that reaffirmed all their own belief systems and made them think they were right about everything and everybody pushed out anybody who didn't agree with everything that they felt. I mean, I definitely did that with you and I know people do that to me as well. So that was a really long winded way of saying, yeah, I'm totally down.

Dylan: To be Facebook friends again.

Andrew: I would be willing to give it a shot.

Dylan: Okay, okay. Jabari, what about you?

Jabari: I'm going to give it a shot, too. We actually, we'll probably get along.

Dylan: Yeah, listening to this conversation I'm like, these are friends who ultimately get along and it's just so funny that your online relationship is so different.

Jabari: Yeah, I mean--

Andrew: Well, and I think that is a perfect micro--I mean you could apply that to just the world honestly.

Dylan: Yeah. As a closing question I just have to ask, is there anything you're going to do differently after this call?

Jabari: I might reach out to some of the other people that are, can I say, Andrew-esque? Other people I may have sparred with.

Andrew: Yes, oh please, feed my ego like that, I love it.

Dylan: Yeah.

Jabari: Other people I might've sparred with and maybe get a conversation going because this was pretty nice, I think.

Dylan: Pretty nice, I think. That should be the tagline of this podcast. Pretty nice, I think. Andrew, what about you?

Andrew: Pretty nice, I think.

Dylan: Yeah.

Andrew: I love moments like this, right? Because we do genuinely disagree on a few things and especially on tactics, right? I also want to believe that there is room for both, and I want to believe that there's a way for us to figure out how to all work together because, Oh my God, we have a common enemy, right? We have a very clear common enemy, so why can't we just fucking get together and work on it? All right, I think there's will to make that happen, but I think that what that takes from people like me is to just do a hell of a lot more listening and stop thinking that I inherently know all the answers because obviously I don't because I was wrong quite a bit in the last year and a half or so. I also always, I feel pretty similarly that I would love to reach out to other people who I've gotten into emotional fights with and try and take that emotion out of it, and just see each other as people, and try and get to the root of all of it.

Dylan: Guys, this is beautiful, look at us. Never... I can say--

Andrew: Oh I know, changing the world.

Dylan: Changing the world, all three of us. I can say with certainty, never on this show has there been a Facebook friendship that has been repaired. So this is a first and I'm very proud.

Andrew: Wow. All right, well there you go. Now here's the thing, I will not guarantee that I will always follow you, but we will be friends.

Dylan: What do you mean always follow? Follow beliefs?

Andrew: You can be friends but unfollow somebody so you don't see their stuff in your newsfeed as much.

Dylan: Wow, that's shady.

Jabari: You can't escape me man. I have people that unfollow and then a friend of theirs liked my comment, so they had to see it.

Andrew: I mean listen, I needed to add a little bit of contention, right?

Dylan: Andrew, I loved the contention, this is--

Andrew: It was way too happy.

Dylan: Yes, this is perfect. This is a cliffhanger for the franchise of the Jabari versus Andrew conversation. This is tipping for the sequel. So it's all happening.

Andrew: Right, right. Exactly.

Dylan: Well Jabari and Andrew, thank you so much for being part of this conversation. Any final things you want to say?

Andrew: I just want to say thank you to Jabari for even... because I know, Dylan, you went to him and asked who he wanted to talk to and he mentioned me and I actually just really appreciate that even if that means that we had difficult conversations in the past, it means... I appreciated the opportunity to be able to talk to you and in person and have this discussion. So, thanks for that.

Jabari: Yeah, I figured you'd be a good person to talk to. I mean, it was almost because I know we had some really deep disagreements, but I also, deep down I did kind of hear what you were saying and I felt it might be good to talk it out.

Andrew: Yeah. Oh, I think one last thing, because I think that's actually really interesting is that even if two people who are fighting on the internet make points that actually do get through to the other person, you can't admit it on the internet, right? You've got to keep that armor and that persona intact, right? So even if there's one tiny thing that may have been like, "Oh, well, okay, well maybe he's not so bad." You're still trying to play to your audience too, right? And so, it's nice to sort of get out of all that bullshit and let that go and talk as just people. Yeah, and this has actually been really great. So, thank you both actually.

Dylan: Well, I guess I will see you guys on the internet.

Jabari: See you on the internet.

Andrew: All right, sounds good.

Dylan: Okay, bye Andrew.

Andrew: Bye Dylan. Bye Jabari.

Jabari: Bye Andrew, nice talking to you.

Andrew: Yeah, you too.

[Andrew hangs up.]

Jabari: That was--

Dylan: I thought that went really well.

Jabari: That was pretty cool.

Dylan: Yeah.

[The drumbeat from ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals kicks in.]

Dylan [VOICEOVER CLOSING CREDITS]: If you'd like to be a guest on this show and take your own online conversation and move it offline, please visit www.conversationswithpeoplewhohateme.com for more information.

Conversations with People Who Hate Me is a production of Night Vale Presents. Vincent Cacchione is the sound engineer and mixer. Christy Gressman is the executive producer. The theme song is These Dark Times by Caged Animals. The logo was designed by Rob Wilson, and this podcast was created, produced, and hosted by me, Dylan Marron.

Special thanks to Adam Cecil, Emily Moler, and our publicist, Megan Larson. We'll be releasing episodes every other week, so I'll see you in two weeks with a brand new conversation.

Until then, remember, there's a human on the other side of the screen.

[Chorus of ‘These Darks Times’ by Caged Animals plays.]