EPISODE 22: IS THIS RACIST?
Dylan: It's funny, but is it that you don't like Andrew? Or you're afraid that Andrew doesn't like you?
Lauren: Oh, I am afraid that Andrew hates me.
[Instrumental of ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals begins to play.]
Dylan [VOICEOVER INTRODUCTION]: Hey, and welcome to Conversations with People Who Hate Me, the show where I take negative online interactions, and move them offline. I'm your host Dylan Marron. Today I'm moderating a call between Lauren and Andrew, Andrew Ti. hosts a popular comedy podcast called, "Yo, Is This Racist?", where he takes a call in question from a listener, and determines if something is racist or not. Lauren was a big fan of Yo Is This Racist?, and three years ago she called in with a question of her own about adoption. She felt she was ridiculed for her question on the podcast, and has spent the last three years scared that Andrew hates her for asking it. She got in touch with me in the hopes of having a conversation with Andrew, so I set it up, and here is Lauren.
[Music fades. Conversation begins.]
Dylan: Hi Lauren.
Lauren: Hi Dylan.
Dylan: How are ya?
Lauren: I'm great. How are you?
Dylan: I'm good. So Lauren-
Lauren: Yeah.
Dylan: Before we begin, in only as many details as you're comfortable sharing, tell me about you.
Lauren: My name is Lauren, I live in East Village in Manhattan, and I work in publishing, and do social media, I work with a lot of authors, I love books, and I have a cat.
Dylan: God bless.
Lauren: It's a lot.
Dylan: So Lauren, you got in touch with me about being on this podcast.
Lauren: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dylan: Why did you get in touch with me?
Lauren: Well, I love podcasts first of all, and one of the first podcasts I started listening to is Andrew Ti's, Yo, is This Racist?, I loved it. And a few years ago, the format was different than it is now. It was Monday through Friday, there'd be a mini episode each day, and for the week there'd be the same guest for the whole week. And they would answer questions, and someone would call in and say, "I have a black cat, and his name is Dave Chappelle, is this racist?", and Andrew Ti's, in a loving, comical way, says, "Yes". And he is very smart, and kind, and I was talking to my best friend, who is a white, gay man, who is married to another white man, who is also gay. Okay?
Dylan: Yeah.
Lauren: And we were talking about adoption, because I've always wanted to adopt, ever since I-
Dylan: You wanted to adopt?
Lauren: Always felt a pull, and so I was talking to my friend about it, and I said, "You know, I don't think I would adopt a white baby, I just, I have heard so many things about how nonwhite babies have a harder time getting adopted", and that's always something I had thought about in my life. And he said, well he had been talking about adoption with his husband, and they said, "Well we kind of want to adopt a white baby, because we think it would be too much for a child to have two dads, and have them be a different race.".
Dylan: Yeah.
Lauren: So I thought, "Oh my gosh, I have never thought about that before", that's so interesting. And you know, I'm into podcasts, this is a few years ago, and I thought, "Oh my gosh, I wonder what Andrew Ti would say about my question?". So I called in, and you know, very soon after, I'm walking down the street to work, and I hear my voice on this podcast that I love, you know, thinking Andrew was there, and I'm so excited, it's like an exciting moment, and I stopped in my tracks because, he along with his guests, just slam me.
Dylan: And did you think he was responding directly to you?
Lauren: I felt like it, and I felt terrible about myself, like I must start off by saying, I completely take ownership for the fact I overreacted, and took it far too personally-
Dylan: You mean you overreacted since then?
Lauren: Yes, in my head.
Dylan: Yeah.
Lauren: I think I made it too much about me, but I thought, "Oh my gosh Lauren, you're the worst kind of racist, you're the problem".
Dylan: You're a bad white person.
Lauren: Yeah, I'm disgusting, I'm annoying, and this is another funny thing, Scott Aukerman owns Earwolf, which is the producer of Yo, Is This Racist?, and I pictured Scott Aukerman and Andrew Ti, sitting in the room, listening to my call, and like laughing at me, and I would like see Scott Aukerman on TV, or like his tweets and stuff, and I think, "Oh my gosh, he hates", like this is ridiculous. I am now inventing this thing in my head, where I am-
Dylan: Well, I just want to say I have been there in my own way, in the sense that like, when something happens to you on the internet, you're like, "Oh my God, I have done something wrong, everyone feels this way", right? So, if you think Andrew hates you, you think the whole world hates you, it's funny, but is it that you don't like Andrew, or you're afraid that Andrew doesn't like you?
Lauren: Oh, I am afraid that Andrew hates me.
Dylan: That's so--hmm--
Lauren: Is that not normal for your show?
Dylan: I mean it completely depends for the show, everyone is different.
Lauren: Because I mean, I think if I hated Andrew, I wouldn't care.
Dylan: Yeah. How do you feel about talking to Andrew?
Lauren: I'm really nervous, but I've heard his voice so much, and I trust him, and I trust you, so I'm ready.
Dylan: All right. Let me talk to Andrew really quickly, and then I'll be right back.
Lauren: Okay.
[Solo conversation ends. Phone rings. Second guest picks up.]
Andrew: Hello.
Dylan: Hey Andrew, how are ya?
Andrew: Good, how's it going?
Dylan: Good. We finally made it on the phone, look at us!
Andrew: (laughs) Yeah, geez!
Dylan: I'm so excited. Well, let's start here, how's your day going?
Andrew: It's going well, yeah.
Dylan: Yeah?
Andrew: I did an episode of my podcast.
Dylan: Nice, that's a good segue, you have a podcast called, Yo, Is This Racist?, tell me about your podcast.
Andrew: Yeah, I've been describing it lately as a podcast, that's an advice podcast, that's mostly comedy-
Dylan: Uh huh.
Andrew: Obviously, it's a very loaded question-
Dylan: Right.
Andrew: Yo, Is This Racist?, and it's people call in, and I try to do my best, and give them advice, and it sort of winds up being a guest talking about the state of the world culture, you know, it's about racism, and everything that intersects with racism, which is everything so-
Dylan: Yes. So the questions that people call in with, those are usually like um tip offs for the conversation you, and your cohost have? Right?
Andrew: Yeah. As far as the podcast goes, it's sort of like a conversation starter, and I like it because it lets me ramble, because there's always this sort of like North star of like, "Oh yeah, yeah. Someone asked a question (DYLAN CROSS TALK LAUGHTER: about whether X or Y) thing was racist or not", so I can just say whatever I want, and then eventually I'll remember what we were talking about.
Dylan: Yeah, Of course, the North star of a question. I think that's beautiful, what made you want to start that podcast?
Andrew: The podcast was an extension of the blog, and the blog started because for a long time I was working as a Digital Producer at Comedy Central, and I was often the only person of color in a lot of rooms.
Dylan: Yeah.
Andrew: And so sort of defacto, I would become the, "Hey, is this racist", person, so that's how the blog started.
Dylan: So you've done a lot of episodes of this show, right?
Andrew: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dylan: Like can you even fathom a number?
Andrew: I believe I'm closing in on a thousand-
Dylan: Oh my god!
Andrew: …maybe over a thousand episodes, with the big asterisk, that for a long time, the show was five mini episodes a week-
Dylan: Oh my god.
Andrew: Sort of between five and 15 minutes long, and I've switched to a weekly, hourly format or hour-ish, you know, format.
Dylan: Yeah.
Andrew: But for a long time I was just cranking them out, like sort of, the idea with each episode was just one question.
Dylan: Do you remember Episode 687?
Andrew: A little bit.
Dylan: So I'm going to jog your memory.
Andrew: Sure.
Dylan: A woman named Lauren called in with a question about transracial adoption, and then, as you just said, you and your cohost answered the question, and then riffed on the question. So do you remember having a conversation about transracial adoption?
Andrew: I do, and I've actually over the years, had a couple, and I'm guessing, knowing me, I've said possibly different things. Or slightly different-
Dylan: You've said possibly different things about transracial adoption?
Andrew: Yeah, exactly.
Dylan: And just for people listening who don't know, transracial adoption is when parents of one race, adopt a child of another race.
Andrew: Mm-hmm.
Dylan: And typically, in the way that it works, at least in the United States is that, it is white parents adopting a child of color. I know you said you have expressed multiple different views on transracial adoption, but do you have strong views on transracial adoption?
Andrew: Yeah, my stance is, so it was sort of complicated, because it's like, part of me of course, is like, "Look, any adoption, by loving parents is a good thing", but taking that as a jumping off point, I do feel like there's a lot of complicated dynamics there, in transracial adoption, particularly in the most prevalent case of white folks adopting children of color, that white parents can be very ignorant of, and you know, can do some type of damage inadvertently to a person they love. And also, there's certainly an element of just a thing that I feel like I wish people, and all people of course, but especially, you know, the powerful groups in this country could understand, which is like, you can do a lot of things just through your own ignorance, that it would be better if you could confront it a little bit.
Dylan: Hmm, yeah. So Lauren, who is the other part of this equation, she asked a question that in her memory, that you didn't really answer that question. Instead, you talked about white people adopting. So, and this goes in line with what you were saying before, which is, you see these questions as kind of like prompts, and then you go off and have conversations with your cohost. How do you feel about talking to Lauren, after responding to her question almost three years ago?
Andrew: I feel a little apprehensive, because I'm sure for any number of reasons, that I said the wrong thing, or said something mean. It's one of those things where I never intended to be mean, but I certainly don't, when I'm talking about the questions, I so rarely am thinking about the person behind the call. It sort of becomes immediately very abstract for me, you know, I would a little bit argue that it's kind of the only way you could do it, is that you almost dehumanize the callers kind of immediately, because it's like, "I'm not really talking about you", you know, as I'm saying this out loud now, it sounds so gross. Like, oh this sounds so awful.
Dylan: I don't think it sounds gross, I think it's just your style, right? And in the sense it's people writing in with a question, and you're like, "Okay world, I'll answer this publicly", as you said, this is a comedy podcast. You are not necessarily claiming to masterfully dissect, and then give a definitive answer if what they're asking about is racism or not. Right?
Andrew: Yeah. Sort of beyond that, I feel like it should be hopefully clear that it's just a discussion, and what I bring to the table is just a point of view you might not have thought of.
Dylan: Yeah. And that's great, because you know, you've hit a successful mold, but funnily enough for this podcast, it's all about the person on the other side of the phone- (LAUGHTER)
Andrew: (laughs) Right. Exactly.
Dylan: So look at us now. (Andrew laughs) So, with that being said, are you ready to talk to Lauren?
Andrew: Yeah, yeah. I hope she's not too mad.
Dylan: It's so funny, I think both of you feel that exact same way, so-
Andrew: That's great.
[Phone rings. All guests are now connected.]
Andrew: Hi Lauren.
Lauren: Hi Andrew.
Andrew: How's it going?
Lauren: I'm great. How are you?
[BREAK]
Andrew: Hi Lauren.
Lauren: Hi Andrew.
Andrew: How's it going?
Lauren: I'm great, how are you?
Dylan: Look, we're all here together you guys, we're living our best lives.
Lauren: I can't believe I'm talking to Andrew Ti.
Dylan: Yeah, so the last time your voices were together, was three years ago.
Andrew: Oh man.
Dylan: Which is a while, so it seems Andrew, that you don't have a strong recollection of this episode, but Lauren, you have a very strong recollection of this episode.
Lauren: Yeah, I mean I guess, I actually didn't even feel like my question was answered. I feel like I was just kind of, attack is the wrong word, I felt a little attacked I guess. And I understand why you don't remember, there's so many of these episodes, especially when you were doing five of them a week, but for me, and this is my own fault, and I will own up to overreacting, and making it all about me, and taking it too personally, but for years I have been thinking about being a mother, being an unfit mother, and not thinking I should adopt. And rethinking about who I am as a human being. And maybe in some ways that's good-
Dylan: Because of this one episode of, Yo, Is This Racist?.
Lauren: (laughs) Yes, I took it to heart-
Andrew: Gosh.
Dylan: Andrew! You reach people!
Lauren: I was listening to Andrew. Because I'm a big fan, your podcast was probably the first podcast I ever listened to. And so, you know, when someone that I looked up to is saying those things, and I felt like you were talking to me, and you know, calling me annoying, and you hope I end up never a mother, and you know-
Andrew: Oh God. (laughs)
Lauren: I mean, but I made it all about me, and I totally take ownership of that now, but the truth is, for years I never listened to, Yo, Is This Racist? again.
Andrew: Yeah.
Dylan: But Andrew, you were saying that your shows aren't necessarily, you know, directly responding to the guests questions, it's more of a jumping off point, right?
Andrew: Right, but at the same time saying someone's annoying, which I feel very bad about, I hope it was at least funny, I sort of suspect it wasn't-
Dylan: Well, it might've been funny to people who had no idea who Lauren was.
Lauren: Yeah, I'm sure it was. (laughs)
Andrew: Oh my god, I don't know if that's true, that sounds so mean now that we're talking about it.
Lauren: Yeah, but I laugh at other episodes, that aren't about me. Then suddenly-
Dylan: Yeah, because I think there's --wouldn't you both agree there's like a catharsis of laughing, at someone else's mishaps? You know?
Lauren: Yeah. That's what was almost interesting that I always enjoyed the show when you were telling other people that they were racist, but suddenly I didn't get the answer that I was expecting, and for three years, I can't listen to your voice. And by the way, your theme song is triggering, and I was wondering if you could consider changing it.
Dylan: The theme song to Yo, Is This Racist?
Lauren: Yeah.
Dylan: Because it reminds you of-
Lauren: Reminds me of that fateful day.
Dylan: Well the idea is-
Andrew: Can I actually jump in real quick?
Dylan: Yes, Andrew please, jump in.
Andrew: We are working on a new theme song.
Lauren: Oh my Gosh-
Dylan: Oh my god.
Lauren: Thank you. I feel so, you didn't have to do that, but it's just-
Dylan: It's just for Lauren.
Andrew: I'm gonna say it was just for you.
Dylan: Yeah.
Andrew: Yeah.
Lauren: Oh my god, you're so sweet. (light laughs)
Dylan: Yeah, well thank you Andrew, that's it, this is the end of the call, we're good, we've achieved what we wanted.
Andrew: All we needed.
Dylan: So Andrew, you identify more as like a comedian?
Andrew: Yeah.
Dylan: Yeah.
Andrew: I certainly wouldn't want to have people think that I have like a deep sociological background, or an understanding of race, above being a person of color who pays attention, and it's an evolving thing.
Dylan: And to be fair Lauren, I think that's why you liked the show.
Lauren: Yeah, I feel like that is why, I think comedians are really smart, I think you're really smart, and I think this is interesting, because I was taking to heart what you said, and I think I wasn't just thinking, "Oh, this is some comedian trying to be funny, this isn't just pure entertainment", I was thinking Andrew Ti said I'm annoying, and I need to like check myself, like there's something wrong with me, and I'm terrible-
Dylan: Because it was this person who you really respected?
Lauren: Yeah, yeah.
Andrew: Yeah.
Lauren: I think I was taking your podcast in a different way that you were putting it out, like I was taking it much more seriously. I was thinking it's, I know that you weren't like a doctor in this, or something, but I was really listening to your answers, and taking them, thinking about them a lot, and thinking this is the answer, you know? And this was a few years ago, but I have been thinking about it for several years.
Andrew: No, I understand, I mean, I think the other thing that sort of it feels like we're touching on is, one of the fundamental, I won't call it a problem with the podcast, but one of the dangers of the podcast is that, you know, sort of by necessity I need to abstract the person, when I'm talking, the people who are asking the questions, sort of become more amorphous idea, and partially it is a thing where it's just the internet also dehumanizes people, and that distance is maybe unhealthy, and not the best way to do it. But it also is sort of just creating content, and entertainment, and a discussion, that by necessity, has to be bigger than the two or three people involved. But it makes me feel terrible that I actually hurt someone who didn't deserve it, and that it has affected your life so profoundly, in a way that I did not intend at all. And so the rationalizing part of my brain is sort of just like, "Well it's not good, but it is the eggs that needs to get cracked to make the cake", or whatever the say, you know what I mean?
Dylan: Yeah, I think we got the saying. (Andrew laughs))
Lauren: Yeah.
Andrew: It's all a little bit of collateral damage, but that's such a heartless thing to say, so I feel bad just saying it.
Lauren: I don't want anyone to feel bad though, because I just think it's very interesting, I'm looking at myself, and thinking like, "Lauren, why did you spin that out of control?", I am looking at myself, my own reaction too. I think I would have listened to your answer a lot differently now that I've grown up a little bit, you know, that I have distance.
Andrew: Mmm-hmm
Lauren: It's not a feel-bad thing, it's how interesting that your one call, that you don't even remember, impacted me. It's interesting, right? And the other thing is, I understand what you're doing with your podcast, and you're doing a great job. I mean, does this happen every day that you get calls that are like, "I have reassessed who I was as a person", like this doesn't happen all the time, so I think you are doing what you are trying to do with your podcast.
Dylan: Yeah.
Andrew: Yeah, I will say this, the fact that it's some dude who doesn't have kids, talking to you about kids, which is like, who the fuck am I to do any of that also, which is a thing that I'm extra uncomfortable about right now.
Lauren: Yeah, I guess the number one thing though, was that I feel like you didn't, I had a kind of interesting question, and I didn't think you answered it. I thought it wasn't even just that you were like, "Don't have kids", or whatever. It was like, but I actually had a question, and you zoomed in on me- And I...
Andrew: yeah.
Lauren: ... don't know, I guess that's the reason I thought, isn't the point of the podcast supposed to be a place where people feel comfortable to ask you questions, and then I asked a question, and it did not get answered, and instead I just ended up feeling really terrible.
Dylan: And Lauren, you thought Andrew hated you?
Lauren: Yes.
Andrew: Oh gosh. (laughs)
Dylan: That's what our mind does to spin things, and just to jump in, that's why this podcast is called, "Conversations with People Who Hate Me", truly no caller has ever hated me, nor have callers hated each other, but it's that our mind spins on the fear of what it means when someone doesn't like us, and when someone doesn't like us, who we don't know, that's when the word hate comes into play. Do you know what I mean?
Lauren: Yeah.
Andrew: Mm-hmm
Dylan: Hate, I also think is more nuance, and there are true hate groups that are in this world, but I'm talking about the way we use the word hate on the internet. Lauren, the way you're-
Andrew: Yeah.
Dylan: … using the word hate, right? When you say, "I thought Andrew hated me", of course, that's a very strong word, as I know it is, because it's in the title of this podcast, but I use it in the title of this show, because when we read a negative comment about ourselves, when we hear, when we see a negative message that was directed to us, and when we hear something negatively said about us indirectly, on a call in podcast, we go to these extremes. Right? So I understand where both of you guys are coming from. Andrew, you are seeing these causes as a jumping off point, Lauren, you were hoping to get answered, and then you felt like this person who you really, really respect, is kind of not answering your question, yeah-
Andrew: Yeah, blowing it off.
Dylan: Blowing it off.
Andrew: I was just going to say, it feels like this particular, your podcast Dylan, is like, this conversation is to me, an almost perfect example of the difference between anonymous ish, or semi anonymous, or like speech with distance, you know, on my podcast, I necessarily need to make the person very distant, and very theoretical, and sort of almost an object away from me, that I can take their statement, and talk about it in that way.
Dylan: Yeah.
Andrew: Whereas, you know, we're also seeing the power of direct conversation, and being able to talk to someone, and being able to react to their feelings, and just the reactions, and it's really great. It's so fascinating, the different kinds of ways we can have a conversation.
Dylan: Oh, totally. I mean, I also just want to say, I think it's important to note that one doesn't have to be valued over the other. Lauren, the whole reason you called into Andrew's podcast three years ago, was because you had a question, and you wanted Andrew Ti to answer it.
Lauren: I did.
Dylan: So in a brief way, do you want to ask Andrew the question again?
Lauren: Sure.
Dylan: Yeah. Andrew, are you comfortable with that?
Andrew: Of course.
Dylan: Okay, great.
Lauren: Okay. I'll do my best, I haven't listened to it in a long time, but I think it all began, I was talking to my best friend who is a white, gay man, and he's married to another white, gay man. And we were discussing adoption because I've always wanted to adopt, since I was tiny, since I knew what adoption was.
Andrew: Mm-hmm
Lauren: And we were talking about, because I said I would probably not want to adopt a white baby, I'd want to adopt a nonwhite baby, because I know that white babies get adopted very easily, it's much harder to find homes for nonwhite babies. And he said, "Well I want a white baby, because my partner and I are both white, and we think it'd be too weird for a kid to have to grow up in a home with two dads that are of a different race, that's like too much for a kid to deal with", and I just thought, "Oh my gosh, I never thought, that's coming to adoption from a completely different way than I was, you know, going to adoption", and I thought, "Well this is an interesting question", right? I thought, "I don't even know what's going on, I don't even know what I'm supposed to be thinking. But I do know, I want to hear Andrew Ti talk about it, that's all I know.". And then there's other element of the fact that my husband is Asian, so there's that element of like, "Could I raise a baby that's not white, if my husband is not white?", you know, I don't know, there was a lot going on, and I don't even know what I was expecting you to say. I guess I was just curious to hear what you would say, and then I heard what you said.
Dylan: So Andrew, this is not three years ago, but this is now, just you, you as you, how do you feel about that question or what's your response?
Andrew: The one thing I've been thinking about a lot, because the transracial adoption question comes up fairly frequently, and I take them from time to time on the show. In some of the episodes you've, you've missed because of my behavior, there's certainly some amount of damage that can be done by well-meaning white people who adopt babies of color. But also even if a white couple adopts a baby of color, and gives them a loving home, but you know fucks up in ways regarding race, on the balance, it probably is a good thing, and that kid has a better life, and also that in reality, everyone's complicated, and no parent is perfect, and every parent has their problems or does things for the wrong reason, or does things partially for selfish reasons, or partially for very noble, selfless reasons. I probably should have just said what I say now, I don't know, I mean, but I also think the most important thing is, to be what you already were and are, which is a person that questioned those things. Like you know, that's the, to me the hallmark, especially of a white person who means well, but there are obviously questions about race that are going to be hard to fully empathize with, is like constantly questioning those things is the most important thing.
Dylan: I also, I think this conversation that the three of us are having, is about a lot more than just the question of transracial adoption, right? It's kind of also about one, how we remember things, two, how we blow things up in our mind, and three, expectations, right? I think you guys just had different expectations for what this was, and/or you had a different expectation for callers, and Lauren, you had a different expectation for your question. And I think about this a lot, especially when we are talking about such complicated issues like racism, and feminism, and misogyny, and homophobia. I think we can often confuse the macro and the micro. Do you know what I mean? Saying like, "Oh my God, white people, am I right?", is one thing, but then when it is personalized to all be thrust onto one white person, as Lauren, I think you were listening to the podcast episode, that you were on. It's like, that can be hard, because then one person becomes the emblem, becomes the symbol, of a systemic problem, you know?
Andrew: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dylan: And I think Andrew, what you're so good at on your show of doing, is talking about these systemic problems, right? It's just that sometimes it, and this is not a critique of your show, I'm just saying in general-
Andrew: No, no, yeah, yeah.
Dylan: The way it can rear its head, is when it is thrust onto just one person, who then represents all of this community, you know?
Andrew: Oh, I think it can be a critique of this show. I think it should be, it's definitely something I have thought about on some level before, but will think about more that it's sort of directly in front of me, which is that like it is so like the specific talked about the general, but obviously the specific is more complicated, there's all kinds of extenuating factors, and one of the sort of jokey conceits of my show, is that when anytime there is, you know, any sort of gap in information, I just assume the worst about the person, because that's how I make the content, right? It's like, you just got to talk about the worst version, and I totally get why it feels unfair to be shit on, or have outside, like collateral damage. Like you're not really the problem.
Lauren: Yeah, and I opted to take it to the micro, you know? And, your show is called, Yo, Is This Racist?, it's clearly a light, fun thing, that I took in this really serious direction. I chose to do that, you know?
Andrew: Well, a reaction doesn't have to be a choice, it's okay to just like, it bothered you, and I understand that.
Dylan: So, let's kind of go down to the root of this. Lauren, what was the fear for you? What was the fear of what this meant about who you were?
Lauren: I mean, it was in an instant, I realized that I was the person I was afraid of being, and that I, "Oh my God, I maybe shouldn't have a child, and I shouldn't be talking about racism, because I'm the worst kind, and I'm disgusting, and I'm annoying everyone", and I made me see myself as a different kind of person, which is overly complicated that, you know, I'm not married to a white person, so it's something that's attached to me at all times. Even though I don't think about it, it obviously isn't the first thing I think about, but I guess it was a realization that I, maybe a good realization, that I was kind of a part of the problem I was worried about. Does that make sense?
Dylan: Yeah, it makes total sense.
Andrew: I disagree though, because I feel, and again, it's probably a thing I can make more clear, which is the questioning, if whether you are, is a big step towards not being that person, you know? Everyone fucks up, you can always do the wrong thing, but it's that you are open to being told that it was the wrong thing, and you're willing to process it, that makes you the right thing, or at least more likely to remain the right thing, you know?
Dylan: Well, I mean, I do think, and Andrew, I'm not by any means talking just about your show, and I'm also implicating past things I've done when I've talked about race in videos, but I do think this is one of the potential, well it's definitely a challenge of talking about race, but it also can be a pitfall of talking about race, that people kind of see it as walking on thin ice. Do you know what I mean? Like, the fear of, "I'm going to say the wrong thing, and if I say the wrong thing, what does that mean about me?", and then I think, I am afraid it turns a lot of people off of the conversation. You know like, I believe that we need to be talking about race, and we need to be having uncomfortable discussions about race, but if the discussion about race is prompting people to feel like, "Oh my God, I could mess up at any time", I think that can be difficult. And again, Andrew, that's not a critique on your show, but it's something that I have also said those things. Listen, I got on my soapbox about the movie La La Land, and I was just like, "La La Land is make America great again, the movie, it's just white people saving jazz", and I just think I was being so, I was treating La La Land, as it is either good, or bad. And I was saying La La Land is bad, and it is racist, I have stamped it with the word racist, and I think that's the fear, right? Like, it's the fear that we are going to be stamped with this word, that among our little lefty circle, like that is the dirtiest...
Andrew: Mmm-hmm.
Dylan: ...word you can be called, you know? And there's a fear of being stamped as that, and Lauren, you were afraid that you had been stamped with that word, because this person had stamped you with that word. Is that true?
Lauren: Yeah, and it's so meta, because it's like, originally I was afraid of being stamped as racist, and now I'm worried about being stamped again.
Dylan: As the well-meaning white person?
Lauren: Yes, which is, I have to get ready for that.
Dylan: I mean, conversations about race are very complicated, right?
Andrew: Mm-hmm
Dylan: And it's important to try and distill them, Andrew, as you do, in your show, and make them entertaining to listen to, and Andrew, I think you do a great job of that. I also think conversations about race cannot be monolithic of like, this is, or is not this thing. It's always complicated, Andrew, just as you said, you can have multiple reactions to one of these things. Just want to check in with you guys, Lauren, how are you feeling on this call?
Lauren: I kind of wish I could've listened to someone else.
Dylan: Yeah.
Lauren: Do my part of it.
Dylan: Yeah, yeah.
Andrew: And I agree, I feel bad. I feel very bad.
Lauren: I don’t-
Dylan: You feel bad Andrew?
Lauren: why do you feel bad? (She laughs)
Andrew: I just feel like I wish, I don't like hurting people's feelings, and there's no, you know, something for me to think about.
Dylan: Yeah. Well, I mean, Lauren, do you think you're going to listen to, Yo, Is This Racist? now?
Lauren: Oh yeah, I have a lot to catch up on.
Dylan: Yeah, you got to get to work.
Lauren: Back to the archives.
Dylan: Back to the archives, you got to go back to the archives, and I mean, Andrew, is this going to make you think any differently about how you tackle these questions?
Andrew: Yeah, absolutely.
Dylan: Well, look at us. We're all just (Lauren laughs)) living our best lives, trying to do our best.
Andrew: This was great.
Dylan: Well, I guess with that being said, we'll all see each other on the internet?
Lauren: Yep.
Dylan: Lauren, any final things you want to say?
Lauren: Just thank you.
Dylan: Great. Andrew, any final things you want to say?
Andrew: Oh gosh, no, just I'm glad we got to do this, I'm glad I got to meet you on the phone, Lauren.
Lauren: Yeah, I can't believe I'm talking to both of you-
Dylan: I know we're all here.
Lauren: This is like a big day for me. Thank you.
Dylan: Big day for all of us, you know? Well, Andrew, thank you so much, Lauren, thank you so much, and we'll all see each other on the internet, sounds good?
Lauren: Sounds good. Thanks.
Andrew: Sounds good.
Dylan: Okay.
Andrew: Bye.
Lauren: Bye.
Dylan: Bye.
[Phone call ends with a hang up sound. The drumbeat from ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals kicks in.]
Dylan [VOICEOVER CLOSING CREDITS]: If you'd like to be a guest on this show, and take your own online conversation, and move it offline, please visit www.conversationswithpeoplewhohateme.com for more information.
Conversations With People Who Hate Me is a production of Night Vale presents, Vincent Cacchione is the Sound Engineer and Mixer, Christy Gressman is the Executive Producer, the theme song is, "These Dark Times", by Caged Animals, the logo was designed by Rob Wilson, and this podcast was created, produced, and hosted by me, Dylan Marron.
Special thanks to Adam Cecil, Emily Moler, and our publicist, Megan Larson.
We'll be releasing episodes every other week, so I'll see you in two weeks with a brand new conversation.
Until then, remember, there's a human on the other side of the screen.
[Chorus of ‘These Darks Times’ by Caged Animals plays.]