EPISODE 20: THEY/THEM
Lennox: I don't believe that “they/them” is a thing.
Dylan: So here's a question for you. What does it cost you to use someone's gender pronouns that they prefer that you use?
[Instrumental of ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals begins to play.]
Dylan [VOICEOVER INTRODUCTION]: Hey, welcome to Conversations with People Who Hate Me, the show where I turn negative online comments into hopefully positive offline phone calls. I'm your host Dylan Marron.
Want to know something cool? This podcast is now officially one year old. Yeah! That's one year of conversations that, to me at least, make the world feel like a smaller, more manageable place. To those who have been listening from the beginning, thanks. Your continued support means everything. And to those tuning in for the first time right now, I'm so glad you're here. You came right on time. We're about to cut the metaphorical cake.
Today, I'm connecting two strangers on a call, Lindsay and Lennox. Lindsay makes a web series called Queer Kid Stuff. It's an educational show that teaches kids about LGBTQ issues like what the word gay means and how different people identify as different genders. Lennox is a high schooler who wrote Lindsay a message saying, "Three-year-olds don't even know the complete alphabet. You're polluting their minds with mental illness and a lifestyle they're completely unaware of." First, I'll speak one on one to Lindsay. Then, I'll do the same with Lennox. And then I'll connect them to each other. Let's get started.
[Music fades. Conversation begins.]
Dylan: Hi, Lindsay.
Lindsay: Hi, Dylan.
Dylan: How are you?
Lindsay: I'm doing great.
Dylan: You're living your best life.
Lindsay: Trying to.
Dylan: So how's your day so far?
Lindsay: I always start my day with bringing my puppy to the park.
Dylan: Oh! Tell me everything about that.
Lindsay: My puppy's name is Georgie.
Dylan: Georgie.
Lindsay: Me and my partner got her I want to say like two and a half months ago.
Dylan: Oh my God.
Lindsay: She's about five months old now. She's the sweetest little thing.
Dylan: Okay. Great. Now I have Georgie in my mind. This is going to be a great conversations.
Lindsay: Oh, yes. Perfect.
Dylan: So Lindsay, in only as many details as you're comfortable sharing on a podcast, tell me about you.
Lindsay: Oh my gosh. Lots of things. I'm a New Yorker. I'm very, very queer.
Dylan: God bless.
Lindsay: Yes, God bless. Jewish.
Dylan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Great.
Lindsay: [inaudible] on that. I have a lot of sisters. I have three sisters.
Dylan: A lot of sisters.
Lindsay: Yes.
Dylan: It's so funny. I've never heard anyone describe it that way. "Yeah, I have a lot of sisters."
Lindsay: Yes. I have a lot of sisters and-
Dylan: Yeah, three sisters is a lot of sisters.
Lindsay: Three sisters a lot... Yeah. Family of divorce, remarriage, step family-
Dylan: Brady Bunch. The Brady Bunch is based on you.
Lindsay: Yes, we called ourselves the Brady Bunch.
Dylan: Oh my God, really?
Lindsay: Yeah, we did at my dad and stepmom's wedding. We did a Brady Bunch picture on the stairs. It was a lot.
Dylan: Oh! No, that's not a lot. That's perfect.
Lindsay: It felt like a lot. I mostly look at that picture and I'm in this awful Talbot's dress, first of all. And I'm like, "This is cringe."
Dylan: So I take it the way that you just said dress and the way you just said cringe that you're not a dress person.
Lindsay: No, not at all. I like androgynous, soft butchy space, lots of bowties, lots of ties.
Dylan: I affirm. That's wonderful.
Lindsay: Lot's of patterned button-downs.
Dylan: Ooh! Exciting.
Lindsay: Yes, very exciting. Literally everything that I wear in my web series is my closet.
Dylan: Great. Well, this is a good segue.
Lindsay: Yes, excellent segue.
Dylan: You have a web series called Queer Kid Stuff.
Lindsay: Yes.
Dylan: Tell me about that.
Lindsay: Yeah, so I do LGBT education and general social justice videos for young children. So ages three and up. What I really am for is like four to seven, eight years old. But, yeah, I upload those videos on YouTube and we just finished season three.
Dylan: Oh my God. Congratulations.
Lindsay: Yeah. Thank you. I've been doing it for about two years now.
Dylan: What are the kind of topics you cover in the series?
Lindsay: We're obviously talking to kids, so it's what does gay mean, what does LGBT stand for, what does queer mean? And that's kind of the basis of the show of what this word queer means and how to expand on that.
Dylan: And how do you talk about sexuality and sexual orientation without talking about sex?
Lindsay: It's a lot easier than you think. Children understand relationships. They understand human connection. They understand love and if they can also understand gender, and you can put those two things together. And sex doesn't have to be in the equation, because children do not need to know about sex. It's not necessary.
Dylan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). It's not what you're looking to do.
Lindsay: Yeah, that's not what I'm looking to do through this.
Dylan: But separately, you also identify as gender non-binary.
Lindsay: Yes.
Dylan: And is that something you talk about on Queer Kid Stuff?
Lindsay: It is. It's something that's quite new. I'd say I started coming out as non-binary like last summer and started using they/them pronouns. People still use she, her, hers, but whenever people ask, I usually say they/them. But it's just something that makes me feel more comfortable and I've kind of always felt that way. I never really had the language or the comfort level to identify that way. I mostly identified as queer. I don't really talk about self-labeling as non-binary or as lesbian or gay as much as I identify as queer.
Dylan: Have you gotten pushback for making his show?
Lindsay: Yes, definitely.
Dylan: Okay. Tell me about it.
Lindsay: I get plenty of YouTube comments. I've actually had to disable the YouTube comments on my channel.
Dylan: Oh really?
Lindsay: Yeah. That's a decision I made. Plenty of messages and comments on my Facebook page. I used to engage with Facebook messages and I don't really because it takes a lot of time.
Dylan: So this is a good segue, because you recently received a message from a guy named Lennox and he wrote, "Three-yeah-olds don't even know the complete alphabet. You're polluting their minds with mental illness and a lifestyle they're completely unaware of." So what did it feel like to receive this message?
Lindsay: Messages like this that call into question the age group that I'm looking at feels like they don't get it. They don't understand the ethos of what I'm doing and are kind of taking it the wrong way. I'm not necessarily intending for a three-year-old to fully understand everything that I'm talking about. It's a lot more grand idea, abstract on my part I think and not everyone gets that, especially if they're finding my content through someone who already doesn't like it. If they're just reading the title Queer Kid Stuff and associating queerness with children and thinking I'm trying to turn kids gay. So it's-
Dylan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). That's how it happened for me actually.
Lindsay: Yeah. Right? You know, I was going to ask.
Dylan: I watched a video and then I was like, "Oh! Wow, I went from hardcore heterosexual to gay."
Lindsay: And that's how it happens.
Dylan: Yeah. That's how it happens.
Lindsay: Yeah. So I think what messages like this say to me are mainly a misunderstanding about what I'm trying to do. And this really strong concept of "childhood innocence" that people feel needs protecting, my feeling about that is that they're born needing to understand the world. And protecting them from the world is keeping them from information and from our reality and it's keeping them in a reality that we construct for them. And I think that's something that's huge for queer young people is that the reality that they feel internally doesn't match the world that they live in, because they're being kept from the truth.
Dylan: So you're about to speak to Lennox.
Lindsay: Yeah.
Dylan: Feeling okay?
Lindsay: Yeah. I'm like a little nervous.
Dylan: Okay. That's normal.
Lindsay: Yeah. I've never done anything like this before. I'm excited to hear like the other side of the story of... I feel like I'm reaching my hand through the screen and saying hi.
Dylan: Yeah. That's the whole point of this podcast.
Lindsay: Exactly. And I think that's cool. I'm excited for other people listen to that too.
Dylan: Cool. Well then let's do it.
Lindsay: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Dylan: So I'm going to talk to Lennox right now. And then we'll all get on the phone together.
Lindsay: Great. Amazing.
[Solo conversation ends. Phone rings. Second guest picks up.]
Lennox: Hello?
Dylan: Hey, Lennox. How are you? This is Dylan Marron.
Lennox: Good. How are you doing?
Dylan: I'm good. I'm good. How's your day going so far?
Lennox: Pretty good. I just got back from the gym, been chilling at my house, doing whatever.
Dylan: Oh, nice. Do you go to the gym frequently?
Lennox: I do. I go almost every day.
Dylan: So you're making me feel really bad, because I have a gym membership that I've been paying for for the last, honestly, seven years and sometimes there's like a string of months that I'll go and other times there's like... I think there was like a pass of a year that I didn't go. So you are making me feel very not good about myself right now.
Lennox: That's actually surprisingly very common.
Dylan: Is it?
Lennox: People would just buy gym memberships and don't use them. Yeah.
Dylan: Well, I was thinking about it that it must be like part of their business model. Do you know what I mean? Which is that they must rely on people buying membership who don't go, because otherwise if they assumed that everyone was going at the same time, then it would be too crowded. Right?
Lennox: Yeah. That's kind of the model that's going on here.
Dylan: Well, look at us. We cracked the code. That's it. That's the whole purpose of this whole phone call. That's all that we're here to talk about. Done. But I always like to start here. In only as many details as you want to share, why don't you tell me about you?
Lennox: Well, I am from a small town in California. I was actually raised conservative. And I'm hoping to major in political science.
Dylan: And you're in high school now, right?
Lennox: Yeah, I'm entering as a senior.
Dylan: Oh, nice. And how's high school going for you so far?
Lennox: I love it. There's a lot of great people there. It's just... Yeah.
Dylan: Oh, nice. So you said you were raised pretty conservative. Right?
Lennox: Uh-huh (affirmative).
Dylan: And I ask this without judgment. What is it that aligns you with conservative ideology?
Lennox: I don't know. It's just kind of traditional. You know what I mean?
Dylan: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Lennox: No real conservative would ever hate on a person of a different race or call LGBT people faggots or something like that. That's not real conservatives. And anybody like that is a bigot and doesn't need to be here, you know? Yeah. It's mostly just their ideas that really attracted me to them. Not only that, but my parents are very attracted to those ideas and they raised me that way.
Dylan: Okay. So what we are here to discuss is a YouTube channel called Queer Kid Stuff. And you messaged Queer Kid Stuff and you wrote, "Three-year-olds don't even know the complete alphabet. You're polluting their minds with mental illness and a lifestyle they're completely unaware of." So let's break it down. First, what inspired you to write directly to Queer Kid Stuff?
Lennox: Immediately as soon as I figured out what their message was, I disagreed with it completely. Here's the thing. I like what they're trying to do here. I like that they're trying to teach young kids about being accepting about LGBTQ members. The thing is teaching children just isn't the way to go about that. Like there's a very common thing that you and I both have called childhood amnesia. I'm sure you've heard the term before. Have you? It's where you-
Dylan: I have and I assume it's where you forget a lot of things that happened in childhood.
Lennox: Yeah. That's exactly what it is. Very common in a lot of people. And basically the way it works is you can't remember anything before the ages three and five. For one, because of childhood amnesia, teaching a three-year-old about LGBTQ issues, they're most likely not going to remember it by the time they're an adult. They might still remember it before they enter their teen years, the pre-teen era, but they will definitely not remember it by the time they reach adulthood. So that's the one problem with it. The second reason is that LGBTQ+ issues are very adult issues. Kids at that age do not know about love or attraction or anything. Basically, these are very adult issues that they have little to no understanding over. It'll make them sexually confused. Which most pre-teen kids actually end up being sexually confused anyway.
Dylan: You mean just in general pre-teens are in general sexually confused?
Lennox: Yeah. Yeah.
Dylan: Again, not arguing, just want to know exactly where you're coming from so you can define yourself in your own words. But why do you feel that talking, not about sex, but about the idea of trans identity and pronouns and sexuality, why is that inappropriate for kids in your opinion?
Lennox: I just don't feel like kids need to know about that. And the whole gender identity and pronouns is like a completely separate issue. If you'd like me to cover that right now, I have a lot of things to say about that.
Dylan: Yeah. I mean, I'd love to hear if you want to share.
Lennox: Okay. So for one, gender identity is, excuse my language, it's bullshit. That doesn't exist.
Dylan: You mean trans identity or...
Lennox: No. Not trans identity. Like gender identity. You identify as non-binary or a fork or something like that.
Dylan: I'm not going to speak for Lindsay, but I know Lindsay uses the pronouns they/them, which is nonbinary. And you think that is not real, right?
Lennox: Yeah. It goes against human anatomy, biology, just goes against everything that I would learn in a biology class when I was a sophomore.
Dylan: My argument would be that I don't think biology textbooks are necessarily covering that. I understand you maybe feel that they shouldn't be covering that. But I don't want to kind of answer questions about non-binary identity since I don't identify as non-binary. I'd prefer Lindsay to do it when we all speak together. Yeah. And the thing that you said about like might as well identify as a fork. I wonder if that's similar to the argument that was being used in the late 90s or early 2000s against gay marriage, which was like well if you're a man who wants to marry a man, what's next? You'll marry a dog. Do you think that's fair to compare the two?
Lennox: Yeah. I disagree. No, I disagree. That's not at all how it's like.
Dylan: You don't agree.
Lennox: Number one, I don't have a problem against gay marriage at all. If you want to marry a man, that's completely your business. Like I know you are a homosexual yourself. That's completely your business. I'd say gender identity is different, because, again, it's human biology. There's only male and female. You can't identify as anything else, because in the end, you'll always either be a male or a female. What you think you are is completely irrelevant to your basic human structure.
Dylan: I disagree. But I think the purpose of at least this portion of the episode is to just kind of hear where you're coming from. So Lennox, the next step is that I'll get you and Lindsay on the phone together. How are you feeling about that?
Lennox: Very excited to hear what she has to say about what I think. And I'm very open to hearing what she may agree or disagree with about what I had to say.
[BREAK]
Dylan: Hey, Lennox, you are on the phone with me and you are also on the phone with Lindsay.
Lindsay: Hi!
Lennox: Hey, how is everyone?
Dylan: We're good.
Lindsay: Good.
Dylan: We're living our best lives. We were just drinking some seltzer. So I just wanted to repeat to both of you this is not a debate. It's just a conversation to see where different people are coming from. And like I said to each of you before is that this is only going to be an episode if you feel comfortable with how it went. I'll check in with you after we hang up. I'll check in with each of you to make sure that you feel comfortable. So Lennox, does that feel cool for you?
Lennox: Yes. You know it.
Dylan: Okay. And Lindsay, does that feel cool for you?
Lindsay: Sounds great.
Dylan: Okay. Cool. So here's how I want to start. Lennox, a little while ago, you wrote Lindsay a message to the Queer Kid Stuff account and you wrote, "Three-year-olds don't even know the complete alphabet. You're polluting their minds with mental illness and a lifestyle they're completely unaware of." Lennox, why don't you explain to Lindsay why you sent them that message?
Lennox: Well, I just don't believe that it's appropriate to be teaching kids about LGBT issues. Not only that, but I consider transgenderism, to my conservative belief, as a mental illness. It's called gender dysphoria. And when I say mental illness, I don't want to call transgender people crazy people. Like that's usually what you think when you say mental illness, like crazy person. So that's not what I mean.
Dylan: Well, what do you mean?
Lennox: Well, I just mean it like a mental illness like depression is a mental illness. It's fairly common throughout a lot of people.
Dylan: Let's kind of tackle these two things separate. Just want to throw this in. I think equating trans identity with mental illness does great harm to the trans community, much more harm than it does to the people who want to believe it is a mental illness. But, Lennox, the first thing you brought up is that you shouldn't be talking to kids about these issues, right?
Lennox: Yeah, I don't believe that it's appropriate. You know what I mean?
Dylan: Lindsay, what's your response to that?
Lindsay: My response to it is the reason why I make my content is because I wish I had something like this when I was a kid. I'm not trying to turn anyone gay. I'm not trying to talk to kids about sex. And I feel like that is a misconception that happens sometimes, but that's not my mission. I'm trying to balance out the content that's out there, because like every Disney movie has a heterosexual romance where the characters make out at the end and my question is why can't that same romance in a Disney movie be between people of the same sex or two people who are have queer genders, are trans, are non-binary. Young people are exposed to those kinds of relationship in like a heterosexual way and what's so wrong about doing the same thing but for same-sex relationships. I don't fully understand how that in itself is inappropriate.
Lennox: Well, making educational videos in not inappropriate. I completely respect what you're trying to do, but I don't really feel the way you're doing it is the proper way to go at it.
Dylan: Why so?
Lennox: Because I feel like the program makes kids more sexually confused than they tend to be anyway. I was having a conversation with my friend the other day about drag queens and about cross-dressing and he brought up that when he was around two year old, he would dress up in dresses. Eventually, he grew out of it. He doesn't dress up like that, but he did admit to being a little confused about himself. And I think that exposing kids to this kind of thing just makes them have a misunderstanding of how the whole attraction and sexuality works.
Lindsay: Oh, this is a hard one to respond to, because, personally, I think that experimentation like that leads to children being able to own and love themselves and their identity no matter what that is. So separating who they are and how they feel and how they like to dress from societal expectations that I'm a boy, I like wearing a dress. That is a fact that a child might know about themselves. Then you're adding on the societal pressure of boys don't wear dresses. And those two ideas, the self and the societal construct come into conflict. And what I'm trying to do with my videos and if a child has that identity conception, that idea of themselves, and they watch my videos instead of going up against the societal construct that boys don't wear dresses, they see my video that says yes, you can wear a dress, that identity that they've come up with is reinforced. Does that make sense?
Lennox: Yeah. It does. And I respect that. I respect that you're trying to tell kids, "don't be afraid to be yourself." I feel everybody should be allowed to be themselves even if I personally disagree that what you feel on the inside is relevant to your basic human biological structure. I don't believe that there are any more than two genders.
Dylan: Okay. So now this is a new topic to tackle.
Lindsay: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Lennox: Yeah.
Dylan: So let us tackle that. Lindsay, you identify as gender non-binary and you use they/them pronouns.
Lindsay: Yeah, primarily.
Dylan: Primarily meaning you also use she/her?
Lindsay: Use she/her. Yeah.
Dylan: Okay. Why don't you explain maybe your gender identity to Lennox?
Lindsay: Yeah. Ooh, tackling my whole entire gender identity. It's interesting, because it's something that's been more recent in the last year, but it's something that I've also kind of tracked throughout my life. When I was a young kid, I dressed really androgynously. I had a short haircut. I begged my mom for a short haircut and she mostly acquiesced. She let me cut it short but not quite as short as I wanted it to. And I was misgendered all the time as a kid. My mom would bring me to the bathroom with her and I was older, I was like maybe seven and people would be like, "Why are you bringing your boy into the bathroom." And I remember going home and I remember thinking, "Okay. I'm going to grow my hair out. I don't want to be misgendered anymore." And I kept my hair long until like the end of high school. And then when I went off to college, I started kind of shedding that. I cut my hair short again. And I finally like came into my own and my gender expression. And then I guess like a year ago, I finally came out as non-binary, started exploring they/them pronouns, because I feel like she/her has never felt quite right and masculine pronouns have never felt right for me. And, yeah, that's kind of the gender story for me.
Dylan: The gender story.
Lindsay: Yeah.
Dylan: So you identify as gender non-binary, which in the most elementary form, how would you define gender non-binary?
Lindsay: In between he and she.
Dylan: Lennox, I know that's lot of information. Do you have any questions about that?
Lennox: No, I've actually looked into a lot of this for a while.
Dylan: Oh, great.
Lindsay: Oh, cool.
Lennox: I'm not a gender studies major, but I do find a lot of it fascinating.
Dylan: Yeah.
Lindsay: Cool.
Dylan: Lennox, does it bother you to use they/them pronouns for Lindsay?
Lennox: No, it does not. I have respect for whatever you want to be called just because I'm a respectful person. But when it comes to acknowledging an identity that I don't believe is real, then... And it's not even like when you ask me to, it's more like when I feel forced to. Like if I don't use your pronouns, then I don't want you to call me out and call me homophobic or all of that. That's what bothers me. But if you just kindly ask me to use them and I will use them.
Lindsay: Okay. For using an incorrect pronoun on accident, I totally don't think you're transphobic or homophobic or anything like that. It's when people might use an incorrect pronoun on purpose, then that's a problem. But I misgender myself all the time. My friends misgender me. My partner misgenders me all the time.
Lennox: It's not rude if you don't want to call someone by their pronouns to call them by their biological pronouns. I don't believe that's rude. If somebody doesn't want to use pronouns and wants to refer to somebody by their biological gender, I don't think that it's rude to purposely incorrectly use them. But because I'm respectful, I will use them.
Dylan: But your argument is kind of hinging on the hypothetical idea of a person who wouldn't respect gender pronouns, you know?
Lennox: Yeah, I see what you're saying.
Lindsay: I think my question and where I feel like there's a disconnect that I'm trying to understand is you being awesome and respectful and respecting pronouns and that's great and I love that versus you saying that you also concurrently believe that there are only two genders. So those two things feel disconnected for me and I'm trying to figure out how you reconcile those two parts of yourself with acknowledging that I believe that I am non-binary, I am non-binary, and therefore, that there are more than two genders, with your personal belief that there are only two. Does that make sense? I'm trying to connect those two things.
Lennox: Yeah, they're like contradicting points to you.
Lindsay: Yeah. Yeah. And I think I'm trying to understand that.
Lennox: Well, here's the thing. I do have respect towards people, but I do lean more towards there are only two genders than I would towards the other side. And that's mainly because I struggle with trying to be what the agenda, which I believe is what's happening, is trying to make me to be and what I actually believe in. I want to respect people's-
Lindsay: Tell me more about the agenda you're talking about.
Lennox: I think agenda was the wrong word to use. It's more like the standards that are coming up now, the changes. You know what I mean?
Lindsay: No.
Lennox: Like the changes. You're supposed to use people's pronouns. You always have to ask people's pronouns or you have to acknowledge their gender identity, otherwise risk being shamed. And those are kind of two balls that I struggle with right there.
Dylan: I think you hit a very interesting point, which is the fear of being shamed for not saying the right thing. Right?
Lennox: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dylan: And is that a fear you have?
Lennox: Yeah, because political correctness is very much a real thing now and some conservatives that want to speak out, some do very much speak their minds. And I would like to be those people, but at the same time, it's like in naturally just adapting to these changes, because I want to be open to people. I am open to people and I should be. But when it comes to things that I disagree with, if it has anything to do with the correctness standard that we have in society, I just struggle with that, with what I actually believe in and what is expected.
Dylan: Yeah. So I think we're still talking about fear of the hypothetical and I don't mean to keep bringing this up because there's like something wrong with that, but that is often at the core. And so, the fear of being shamed is itself relying on the hypothetical person who will shame you. But you are on the phone with someone who uses they/them pronouns, who themselves said that they wouldn't shame you if you messed up. But also, Lennox, what I want to acknowledge is that a lot of people have this hear. You're not the only one.
Lindsay: Not at all. Yeah.
Dylan: Not at all. Lennox, you're saying that you're afraid of the possible repercussions of messing up publicly, right?
Lennox: Yeah.
Dylan: And that's a real fear to have. I get it. But, Lennox, do you feel different on this call than you do in the hypothetical fear of being shamed? Like do you feel that you are being shamed on this call right now?
Lennox: Well, it's mostly just that this is going to be spread to a wide audience. Like all these people are going to... I know not everybody, except the conservative who has a different opinion is whatever name you want to call them. But some are out there. And those people usually are very, very violent and angry. I'm just going to admit that.
Dylan: So are you afraid of the repercussions of this being released as an episode?
Lennox: No, not really. I don't believe there are any more than two genders. I want to acknowledge your pronouns but I'm not going to call you that if that's not what you are. I guess that's just what I've been trying to keep down out of me, but I'm just going to say it. I don't believe that they/them is a thing. I just don't believe that.
Dylan: So here's a question for you. What does it cost you to use someone's gender pronouns that they prefer that you use?
Lennox: It's basically giving me the power that I don't want to have, and that I don't have, to redefine biologic terms. Like I'm not going to reinvent biology because you think that it threatens your humanity. I'm not denying your humanity. That's not at all what's going on here. You're still a human being. And whatever pronouns you want to use, feel free to use them is what I'm trying to say. But if you're telling me that I have to use them or that it doesn't cost anything to use them and I don't want to use them, my answer is no. I'm not going to call you anything that you aren't. It all comes down to fact versus opinion. Like what you think you are is your opinion. You are either male or female, that's the fact.
Dylan: But I-
Lennox: I think they can coexist... Yeah, go ahead, Dylan.
Dylan: No, it's fine. I was just going to say that I actually disagree with that, because I think if someone is defining themselves for themselves, that is itself a fact, meaning it's not a fact for you. So like Lindsay identifying as gender non-binary isn't like, "Well, actually, Lennox, I got news for you. That means you're gender non-binary too." No, it doesn't at all mean that. You are just as much of a man as you are. I guess what I'm trying to get at is it has nothing to do with you, you know? So I... Yeah. Lindsay...
Lindsay: Yeah. My identifying as gender nonconforming, to me, is a fact. It's not an opinion. And that doesn't have anything to do with my body.
Dylan: Just as it is a fact, Lennox, that you identify as a male.
Lindsay: Yeah.
Lennox: Well, I don't identify as a male. I am a male. I have all the sex organs for that. I have facial hair that grows. I am a male. I don't identify as a male.
Dylan: Well, I think the way Lindsay and I would put it is that that means that your gender identity corresponds to with your biological sex.
Lennox: I just think it's ridiculous when people say gender is in the mind. It's completely separate from sex. I just can't agree with that.
Dylan: That's fine if you don't agree with that. Meaning like for yourself. But what is it that crawls under your skin about that? I know you keep saying because it's a fact and it's not a feeling. But, and this is a hard question, if you can, pinpoint what is it about that that just itches at you?
Lennox: There's nothing really that crawls under my skin about it. It's just what I know as a fact.
Dylan: Lindsay, did you want to say something?
Lindsay: No, I'm kind of taking this in. This is super interesting to me. Just to hear how you think about all this and how everything is structured for you. It's really interesting to me.
Lennox: I think of it as like a delusion. You know what I mean? A delusion.
Lindsay: Okay. Do you think that people are seeing something that you're not seeing and thinking it's real?
Lennox: Well, I don't think the term delusion or hallucination literally. I'm not thinking that they're seeing something. I'm just using that as like a false reality. You know what I mean?
Lindsay: I think false reality is hitting the nail on the head of what you're talking about. Would you agree?
Lennox: Yeah.
Lindsay: Okay. Interesting. The true reality for you is two genders. The false reality is essentially a gender spectrum and the existence of trans and gender nonconforming identities. Is that correct?
Lennox: Yeah.
Lindsay: Okay.
Dylan: To go back to the question of cost, what is the downside of acknowledging someone's gender identity that you call a false reality?
Lennox: Well, there's not really a cost to it. I just see it like we're acknowledging delusion. Like these things aren't real, so if we're going to start accepting things into reality that aren't real, then I may as well identify as a fork. There's really no cost to it. There's nothing being put on the line. My problem with it is that we're telling these people that what they're thinking is real when it's not. You understand?
Lindsay: I think I'm starting to understand.
Dylan: I think I understand but not agree is where you are, Lindsay, right?
Lindsay: I think so. I think I'm starting to see where our disconnect is. And I'm afraid I'm going to get really academic. Where I'm coming from is that everything that exists in the world that humans created is based on a construct that we all agree is true and is our reality. Does that make sense?
Lennox: Yeah.
Lindsay: And I think where I'm coming from is the idea that that construct that exists can be changed because we are human and humans created that construct. I think where you're coming from is that that construct exists and is immovable. Would you agree with that?
Lennox: No, I understand what you're saying. But going back to the human construct thing, that kind of reminds me of that people believed for a long time that it was okay to persecute the mentally ill that they didn't make it right. That's what I want to say. And that's what I'm thinking the same thing here. Just because you believe that you are something else, that doesn't mean that it's true.
Lindsay: It's not really what I'm talking about.
Dylan: But, yeah, let's go back to Lindsay what you were saying before, because the truth that we have been taught is relative. It is relative to what we have been told is true. So I think gender non-binary identity is something where a group of people are like, "Hey, we understand that this is not necessarily taught in textbooks, not all textbooks, and this is not something that the world is totally prepared to talk about, but we identify as gender non-binary." And that is so that people who identify as gender non-binary are like, "Hey, we feel seen if you use these pronouns." And that's why I keep asking about cost, because that expansion of what is true, of what is possible for identity only benefits one group of people. And in my view, does not inhibit anyone else's existence in the world. And you keep saying that gender non-binary does not inhibit your ability to live, right, Lennox?
Lennox: Yeah.
Dylan: So I think the reason... Well, I want to do a check-in. Lindsay, how are you feeling about the call?
Lindsay: I'm feeling good. I'm very intrigued by all of this.
Dylan: Yeah. Lennox, how are you feeling?
Lennox: I feel really good that I'm hearing some more from the other end that I stand by. I hear a lot of it, but I don't think I've ever been as into the conversation as I am right now.
Dylan: Okay. Great. This is a very big and complicated conversation and there's no right way to put a ribbon on this. I think we are taught by online videos that you can shut down an opposing viewpoint with a well-worded video essay, but I think we know that's not true, because in practice, this is actually what it looks like. It's a conversation that's a little complicated. Would you guys agree with that?
Lindsay: Yeah. Totally.
Lennox: Yeah. The more you dive into it, the more complicated and less well-worded you seem and get.
Dylan: But I would like to end it here. I think it is fine, wonderful even, to have questions and to have questions about why someone identifies as a gender, knows they are a certain gender. I think it is fine and wonderful to ask questions about why someone doesn't understand that. But I do think that when one's ability to not totally understand why and how someone thinks a certain way, when that turns into fear, that fear can calcify into violence. And that's why I think that this topic is important to talk about even though we're not going to fully solve it or finish it or establish it on this call. Do you guys agree with that?
Lindsay: Yeah. Totally.
Lennox: Yeah. I can. Certainly.
Dylan: I know it is impossible it sum up your feelings on this call, but, Lindsay, if you will, take it away with your closing thoughts.
Lindsay: Sure. I think this conversation is opening my eyes in a way that I'm putting a more full story behind why someone, why, Lennox, you believe what you believe and how exactly and specifically that conflicts with what I believe. And I think I'm finally able to put your specific reason into a language that makes sense for both of us and I think that's ultimately what we came to. And those two things can coexist in the same world. You and I can coexist in the same world. We can have a civil conversation that's respectful and great. And I think that I'm really glad we did this. And it was a really conversation. I think we got to a lot of things that were super abstract and like almost philosophical. But I think-
Dylan: I'd say for sure philosophical.
Lindsay: Yeah, definitely philosophical. And I think that does get to the core of how humans think about the world that they live in. So I think that this was ultimately a pretty universal conversation, because of how vague and funky it got. And I think that that can speak to a lot of different issues and conflicts that people have with each other and learning how to get down to the very deepest core of what, that misunderstanding maybe, but inability to fully see each other is. Does that make sense?
Lennox: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dylan: And Lennox, what are your closing thoughts?
Lennox: Yeah. I can say the same thing. I'm really happy that I had the conversation with a person who feels differently. And I think that I got a lot more of an understanding than I did before of where people who identify as something different are coming from, why they feel the way they do and what may lead them to think that way. So, yeah, that's pretty much all I really have to say about that. Yeah, I'm just happy that I had the conversation. I learned a lot more than I was expecting to. I was expecting to hear a lot of what I've already heard before. But I did hear some new things that really got me thinking. So thank you, Lindsay, for inviting me to go on the podcast and... Yeah.
Lindsay: You're very welcome. Thank you for coming on and chatting with both of us.
Dylan: Yeah. I really appreciate both of you coming on this podcast, because I think that this conversation is by no means the end, but it is a start.
Lindsay: Yeah.
Lennox: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dylan: Well, Lennox, it's been a pleasure to talk to you. Lindsay, it's been a pleasure to talk to you.
Lennox: Same here.
Lindsay: Same here.
Dylan: And I guess we'll all see each other on the internet.
Lindsay: Yeah, see you on the internet.
Lennox: Yeah.
Dylan: Sounds good.
Lindsay: Bye, Lennox.
Lennox: Have a good day.
Lindsay: You too.
Dylan: You too. Bye.
[Phone call ends with a hang up sound. The drumbeat from ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals kicks in.]
Dylan [VOICEOVER CLOSING CREDITS]: If you'd like to be a guest on this show and take your own online conversation and move it offline, please visit www.conversationswithpeoplewhohateme.com for more information.
Conversations with People who Hate Me is a production of Night Vale Presents. Vincent Cacchione is the sound engineer and mixer. Christy Gressman is the executive producer. The theme song is These Dark Times by Caged Animals. The logo was designed by Rob Wilson. And this podcast was created, produced and hosted by me, Dylan Marron.
Special thanks to Adam Cecil, Emily Moler, and our publicist Megan Larson.
We'll be releasing episodes every other week, so I'll see you in two weeks with a brand new conversation.
Until then, remember, there's a human on the other side of the screen.
[Chorus of ‘These Darks Times’ by Caged Animals plays.]