EPISODE 19: LATINX
Dylan: In the comments section of the video you made, “What's With The X in Latinx-”
Kat: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dylan: ... there was a man who commented, "For reals, that chick is annoying."
Kat: My mom would agree with him. I'm very annoying. So would my sister.
Dylan: Okay, great.
[Instrumental of ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals begins to play.]
Dylan [VOICEOVER INTRODUCTION]: Hey and welcome to Conversations With People Who Hate Me, the show where I take negative online comments and turn them into starting points for offline conversations. I'm your host Dylan Marron. Today I'm moderating a conversation between two people who intersected online because of one word: Latinx. For those of you who aren't familiar, no worries; it's the gender neutral alternative to the terms Latino and Latina, which is used to describe someone of Latin American origin. Kat Lazo is a video maker who made a video called “What's With The X in Latinx,” where she essentially broke down why she thinks people should use the more inclusive term rather than the gendered Latino or Latina when referring to a group of Latin American people. And then Alvaro commented beneath the video, "For reals, that chick is annoying." First I'll speak one-on-one to Kat then I will chat with Alvaro, and then I will connect them to each other. So, let's get started.
[Music fades. Conversation begins.]
Dylan: Hi Kat.
Kat: Hey, Dylan.
Dylan: How are you?
Kat: I'm good.
Dylan: How are you feeling right now?
Kat: I'm feeling a little nervous but at the same time pretty at ease just because you're such a wonder full spirit. So I'm like, "Oh, I have nothing to worry about."
Dylan: That was like you were sponsored to say that [crosstalk].
Kat: Pass me the $20.
Dylan: Exactly. Oh, 20? Come on baby. For that I'd pay more. So why are you feeling nervous?
Kat: Because I guess I'm going to talk to someone who hates me. I don't think they hate me but-
Dylan: I mean hate is a loose-
Kat: Strong word.
Dylan: Loose term. Strong word and it's also a loose term for this, but it's just about the fact that on the internet when we read these comments, it can feel like it. We'll get to all of that soon. But I wanted to start here. Kat, you are a video maker, a content creator, and you make very popular videos on the internet. Tell me about what started this work.
Kat: Wow. Okay. Well what started this was really the accessibility of the internet and my frustration with the world. When those two things collided. I'm Colombian-Peruvian, I grew up in Queens, New York, in a predominantly white neighborhood to immigrant parents. So a lot of that colored how I view the world and how I've experienced things. And then I also like wanted to act when I was younger. I wanted to be Natalie Portman, but the frustration of how the industry treated me and treated others-- other marginalized folks kind of put a bad taste in my mouth to the point that I graduated college with a degree in advertising marketing. I said, "There's no way I'm ever going to make it in an ad agency with how I think or how I view the world. This is not going to happen. So what do I do? Where do I fit in?" Right? Where does my specific experience and perspective as a Latina fit in? And honestly, as a stereotypical millennial, I was like, "I know. I will start a YouTube channel." So I started a YouTube channel. I started vlogging, I started learning how to use a camera, I started freelancing, making videos, for other folks within like the feminist online sphere. And yeah, fast forward a couple of years now I have my own series, The Kat Call.
Dylan: Look at you.
Kat: Half scripted, half vlog, all that good stuff. Kind of breaking down misconceptions about Latinos or Latinx. Wink, wink. Yeah, and just kind of catering to my own community, making sure that we're holding each other responsible, accountable rather.
Dylan: I feel like the internet would classify you and certainly it has classified me in the category of social justice and warrior. How does that label feel for you?
Kat: I don't like it just because that's not my intention. I feel like right away that label means that people are tuning out. And so when folks do comment and say like, "Social justice warrior. Oh my God, this liberal, this and this." I feel like, "Damn." I didn't do a good job because I actually want you to stick through and watch this video.
Dylan: So you made a video called What's With The X in Latinx. Now for people who don't know what Latinx means, please educate us.
Kat: So we understand that there's Latina and then there's Latino. An A and an O at the end of that.
Dylan: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kat: The Spanish language is very gendered, right? So even objects are either female or male. And as a result, a new term, Latinx started to be spread. And the point of X in Latinx is mainly two reasons, right? One to break down the patriarchy. For example, if there's a room full of three girls, it's a room full of Amigas, friends, the female version. But if a guy enters that room, it automatically becomes Amigos. And then secondly, probably the most dominant reason is it's a gender neutral term, right? For folks who don't feel like they fit in the binary of male or female and yeah. So I think that it started being used a lot and it stirred up a lot of confusion, questions and a lot of feelings that felt aggressive.
Dylan: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Kat: And so yeah, I wanted to address that because I posed that question and that was the title of the video. What's With The X in Latinx because that is what some people were commenting when I made videos and people would use the word Latinx. I'd be like, "What the hell is with the X and Latinx?"
Dylan: Now some people feel that it kind of disrespects the language. Have you gotten that?
Kat: Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah. I mean I can understand where people are coming from when they say that. Possibly where they're coming from, given that those of us who do speak different languages and in particular Spanish, a lot of us are being discriminated against if we do speak Spanish publicly. So I can see a (speaks spanish) like a pride of like, "Why would you change this?" But I guess my thought process and my rebuttal to that is that language alone, regardless of what language you speak, is always evolving, right? So we enter slang words into the dictionary like every day.
Dylan: Every day. Yeah.
Kat: And also Spanish along with even English, are languages that our colonizers literally imposed on us. So I come from a perspective that yes, I speak both, but at the same time I recognize that both were not passed down to me willingly. There is a history that's pretty ugly, so I'm not that-
Dylan: Beholden to it.
Kat: Yeah.
Dylan: Yeah. Okay. So in the comment section of the video you made, What's With The X in Latinx, there was a man who commented, "For reals, that chick is annoying."
Kat: My mom would agree with him. I'm very annoying. So would my sister.
Dylan: Okay, great. How does it feel to read a comment like that?
Kat: I think given that in that particular video I got a lot of comments, a lot of, I would categorize negative comments that I'm almost like numb to it. It's not that bad. It's in the sea of all of the other negative comments. I'm curious as to like what makes me annoying. Is it just like my personality? Is it what I'm talking about?
Dylan: Yeah. Well that's-
Kat: My tone of voice? I don't know. My eyebrows?
Dylan: Right. I mean, that's a great question and that's the whole reason why we're here. So, stay right there and then I'll give him a call.
[Solo conversation ends. Phone rings. Second guest picks up.]
Alvaro: Hello?
Dylan: Hey Alvaro. It's Dylan.
Alvaro: Hey Dylan. What's going on?
Dylan: How's it going?
Alvaro: Not bad.
Dylan: So you're sure now's a good time for you?
Alvaro: Yeah, definitely.
Dylan: Okay, great.
Alvaro: Who knows? This will be my shot at stardom.
Dylan: I know. Look at this, we're doing it. So, Alvaro, let's start small. Tell me how your day is going.
Alvaro: It's not going too bad. I mean, I'm here at home I'm off taking care of my niece and my three dogs.
Dylan: Oh, nice.
Alvaro: Life is good.
Dylan: You have three dogs. That was like my dream as a kid. I wanted three dogs. I'm sure your hands are tied, right?
Alvaro: Yeah. It's like having another kid basically. You always have to worry if they're sick, if they ate, if they went outside, if they ran away.
Dylan: Right, right, right, right. Okay. So I usually like to just start to get to know people. So in only as many details as you're comfortable sharing, tell me about you.
Alvaro: Currently I am a nurse. A licensed practical nurse, and I'm actually going back to school.
Dylan: Oh, nice. For what?
Alvaro: Well, to just move up the ladder and become a registered nurse. And my longterm goal is to become a nurse anesthetist.
Dylan: Oh, nice.
Alvaro: So, little by little I'm doing that. In terms of my background, I will say that I'm Colombian. My family's very much Colombian, very family oriented. Other things that I like to do, I'm huge into travel. Like I would then travel to South America, I want to go to Europe, I want to go Asia, I want to travel, experience different cultures and different things. So I'm pretty adventurous when it comes to like food and culture. And I've always liked helping others since I was young. I liked medicine, I liked science. I love to help people out in the time of need, I'm very caring, especially towards people who are elderly. And I just find it very satisfying to help people out.
Dylan: Okay. So, now to kind of turn the questions a little bigger, underneath Kat Lazo's video about using the X in Latinx, you said, "For reals, that chick is annoying." So why did you write that?
Alvaro: I wrote it because when you look at her video, the first thing you see is this girl just waving her neck around and just pointing the finger at the screen, telling you what to think and what to talk. And I was like, "Whoa, who is this?" Because she tries to go into this discussion about the whole Latinx thing.
Dylan: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Alvaro: Like for example, the one that really stood out to me the most, it says, "A lot of people that are against the whole Latinx, they want to use proper grammar within the context of the Spanish language." She says, "Well, why do you want to use a language that is imposed on you by colonialists?" And I think, well, that's kind of hypocritical because from what I understand here is the term Latinx, it's coming from a non-Latino source. It's coming from an American source and North America, I should say, it has kind of like a bad image of going to other people's nations and telling them what to do. For example, the term Latinex, as in E-X in Spanish is ecky. What is the proper way of saying? Is it Latinecky? It doesn't make any sense.
Dylan: Is there something else that kind of crawls under your skin about it?
Alvaro: Well, I think it's really the new versus the old. And when it comes to the new, we talk about like the newer generations of Spanish speaking people within the United States. Usually third and second generation and then you have the older traditional generation. For example, I was born outside of this country and I came here with my parents. Granted though my Spanish isn't as great as theirs, I considered myself like a first generation Latino and we tend to be a little bit more set and conservative in our ways versus more people who are born here. They tend to be a little more progressive. And what really irks me, people will say, "Oh, well language always changes. It's always evolving? Why can't you change? Don't be so stuck in your own ways. Like I always tell people, we created institutions to protect and preserve our language. So I feel that if we're going to evolve and we're going to have progressive for the future, we want to progress within... It comes from our own cultures, not what some second or third generation person who probably doesn't speak Spanish that well, doesn't understand the intricacies of the proper grammar of it all. Because that feels like it's a butchering upon the language. If you butcher the language, you start stripping away your identity. In my point of view, I'm speaking specifically for myself.
Dylan: You were mentioning how close you are with your family. Do you have any? Like are there intergenerational differences within your family? And what I mean by that is like are there ways that you're more progressive than the generation before you and the generation before them and stuff like that?
Alvaro: I would say yes. Even even though I was born outside of the country, but I was raised a little bit here also, I tend to feel that my society is very much of a machismo society.
Dylan: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Alvaro: Sadly to say I can't generalize everybody, put them on the same because there's always going to be that exception.
Dylan: Of course.
Alvaro: But willing to call me and culture, men are known to be philanderers. And when I was there, I saw men teaching their children or even their nephews to be philanderers. And I've always thought against that. And people would say, "Oh, what's wrong with you? Are you gay or something? Why do you think that way?" Or, "Why do you even talk that way?" That's just how things are. And I would say, "No, it's not how things are supposed to be."
Dylan: Yeah. No, I mean, that's so interesting. So you get a bit of a hard time for being more progressive than the generations before you, right?
Alvaro: Oh definitely.
Dylan: Yeah. And I guess what I'm trying to get at here is I'm wondering like when we see people who are slightly more progressive than us, and that's not a value judgment, I just mean like someone who is saying something that is on the scale of progressivism, more progressive than that then what we're working towards-
Alvaro: Than the previous, yeah.
Dylan: Exactly. I wonder if our natural inclination is to find that annoying. So I wonder if part of what you find annoying about Kat is she's talking about something that is a few steps away from where you are in terms of progressivism. Is that fair to say?
Alvaro: In a way it is, in the way it isn't. I just see it more as of two things. Primarily, I see it more as like kind of like an attack on the culture and it's like you're trying to take away from our culture. And number two, I see her and I hope if she hears this then she doesn't get offended but I see her I like as a rebel without a cause. Maybe I could be wrong, but that's the image that I see I guess from her. But when you see the video, all she starts doing is the snapping the neck, throwing her neck this, "How are you going to get angry over a little word?" Yada yada yada. Just all these little side comments that are like... It doesn't make any sense.
Dylan: So you would feel comfortable saying that to her?
Alvaro: I would.
Dylan: Yeah.
Alvaro: I mean, because I'm not trying to depress her or anything. I was just saying that's what my perspective is and what I see from her.
Dylan: No, totally. So with that being said, Alvaro, are you down to talk to Kat?
Alvaro: Yeah, definitely.
Dylan: Okay, great.
[Phone rings. All guests are now connected.]
Kat: Hey Alvaro?
Alvaro: Hi Kat. How you doing?
[BREAK]
Alvaro: All right go ahead.
Dylan: Hey, I don't know if you can hear us but Kat, you can say hi.
Kat: Hey Alvaro?
Alvaro: Hi Kat. How are you going?
Kat: I'm doing good. How are you?
Alvaro: I'm doing very good.
Dylan: Okay, great. So, I just want to start with a question.
Kat: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dylan: So we are joined here because the two of you intersected on the internet, on Facebook. Kat, you made a video called What's The Deal With the X in Latinx and Alvaro, you commented, "For reals, that chick is annoying." So let's start with Kat. Kat, what motivated you to make that video?
Kat: I mean generally I think that lots of folks just had questions about what literally the name of the video. Like what's with the X in Latinx. And then other folks I saw felt very offended when they saw the word Latinx used in other videos. So I kind of just wanted to break it down, an explainer as to why this is being used, why certain people feel that it's necessary. And that's about it. Yeah.
Dylan: Nice. Now, Alvaro.
Kat: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dylan: What motivated you to comment that beneath the video?
Alvaro: Well, I mean, every time I see the video it's like the first thing I see is Kat and no offense to you, but you're just throwing your neck around, and like this and that, this and that. It's like, "Oh boy, here we go again. Somebody trying to tell me what to do or what to say." Latinx for me, I feel like it's an attack upon my culture in a type of way. I grew up part of it. It's part of the outside of the country in Colombia, knowing the grammar and I understand that is the gendered language, but the thing is, is that why do I have to have someone impose to me these ideals from a foreign nation?
Kat: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Alvaro: The Spanish language in itself has always been gendered. Even the old English itself was gendered. And I think like for example, when somebody says Latinx, like what is that? The word X is not even in Spanish. Is it Latinecky or Latinx.
Kat: Yeah.
Alvaro: Well how does that even make sense?
Kat: I mean, I feel you. There's lots of things quote unquote, wrong with the X in Latinx. Like you said, it's pronounced or how people have been pronouncing it as Latinx. Therefore, it's not even Spanish. It's already like making it all Anglo. Therefore, certain people I know do pronounce it Latineckys but then as other folks have pointed out, does this mean we're going to put an X on everything? I think that for me, even as someone who does not refer to themselves as Latinx, given that I identify as a woman, so Latina's fine with me, I just feel like it's one step and it shouldn't... I don't see why it would bother folks if someone told you like, "Please refer to me in this way." Because I don't think that the idea is for Latinx to be applied to everyone, right? That doesn't mean that Alvaro, you are no longer a Latino, a Colombian man. It just means that now maybe people are aware that if someone does identify with the X, maybe because they are gender nonconforming or they're queer or whatever, that hopefully we have more insight as to why they are choosing to identify as such. And hopefully if you know, why you can respect that reason why and use it in reference to them.
Dylan: Alvaro, you said something really interesting, you said it feels like an attack on your culture.
Kat: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dylan: Hearing Kat's explanation, does it still feel like an attack?
Alvaro: I mean in a way it is, and in a way it isn't. Like I understand the idea behind it, but why do we have to use that type of term to apply to our language? I mean, why can't we evolve within our own language and create a different thing? Because the people who defend, they usually say, "Oh, well language is always changing and you need to change along with it." But we have Spanish academies set up to protect the purity of our Spanish. You understand what I'm saying? So if we're going to go in that direction and we're going to be progressing that type of way, why can't we just progress within our own? Why do we have to bring it an English term?
Kat: Right. So I actually agree with you in terms of, I do see the flaw in Latinx being something that my understanding was brought in from academics here. Therefore it's not something that's brought from I guess Latin America, it's not even applied as much in Latin America. So, I understand where you're coming from. One thing that stuck out to me that you said is the purity in our language. You see it as this word is hurting the purity of the language. Whereas I think to myself, "Geez, like if we really want to talk about pure, pure, this wasn't necessarily our first language of our quote unquote people." Right?
Alvaro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kat: and I guess my frame of thought is that even Spanish is pure in itself. Like the way that that language was forced on Latin America and the Caribbean was one through colonization. Was one where a lot of us were forced to speak that. And a lot of those indigenous languages or African dialects were stripped away from us. So I just don't even see Spanish or even English for that manner as something that's pure. It's like when do we decide that something's pure?
Alvaro: Right. But the thing is, is that becoming Colombian in their perspective community that they live in, they don't identify as, "Okay, well I'm a native American and then the Spanish came here and forced this upon me." They see it as, "This is us, this is who we are and this is what represents presents us. And this is the representation of our identity." But I must also consider it as, "Here came the evil colonizers and they started forcing me to speak this different language."
Kat: I mean, I think it's because both-
Alvaro: And I'm pretty sure the people in Spain don't feel the same way that it's like, "Oh, we came here and you guys better speak what we need to speak."
Kat: I do want to-
Alvaro: You know what I think the problem is? I'm sorry. Keep going, I interrupted.
Kat: No, no, no. Go on Alvaro. This is a conversation.
Alvaro: What I think the problem is, I think this is more really of a friction between the older generation Latin Americans and the newer generation.
Kat: I agree with you.
Alvaro: I consider myself more a first generation because I was born and raised outside of the country. I came here with a frame of mindset already in. So, the language for me, it is the culture that I am, it is my identity that I am, and I was taught always to have a certain grammar. Just like in English, always have your predicate, your pronouns and it's supposed to be the certain way. For somebody to try and change it, it doesn't make any... For me, I see it's kind of offensive.
Kat: Right. I mean, I understand that given what you just said. This is something that you hold very true to be part of your identity and your culture. That makes a lot of sense. I start thinking though, with any language, like I think of English and there are words, new words that are made up, slang words that are added to the dictionary all the time that weren't words yesterday, but are words today. And so, yeah, you're absolutely right. I think that the friction with the X in Latinx is one with the younger generation and maybe an older generation, and how we identify in terms of what we hold true to be our culture. Right? Because for me, it's one that's a little more fluid perhaps because I have friends who have lost even the language, who don't speak Spanish. And that's not their fault, right? Because as you may know, lots of folks have been discriminated when their parents first came here and were discriminated for speaking Spanish. Therefore (speaking Spanish) they didn't want to teach their kids Spanish because it's like, "I don't want my kids to be discriminated against so you know what? I'm never going to teach them Spanish. They should only speak English." And that also in turn is also sad because as you said this protecting of the language, that's kind of gone because of fear and because of discrimination.
Alvaro: It is a very difficult topic. I'll give you that. It is a very difficult topic because we're trying to be all inclusive from both sides.
Kat: Right. I have a question though. So let's just say hypothetically, if you met someone and they said, "Please refer to me as Latinx." Would you use it or no?
Alvaro: I would use it. But the thing is is that I see video upon video upon videos of somebody saying, "Okay..." Trying to make it a thing and the part that really stuck out to me. It's like, "Oh, you're going to get offended over a word." Then to look in the cameras like, it's not the word, it's the whole thing behind it because I feel it's like stripping away of identity.
Dylan: So I want to jump in and kind of make this conversation a little broader. We're focusing a lot on language and what I'm hearing between you guys is that we're talking about protecting and preserving, right? Alvaro, you're talking about protecting and preserving this rich heritage, especially protecting and preserving it here. Kat, I see you are on the same page of wanting to do that, but you are wanting to make it more inclusive.
Kat: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dylan: Right? I would love to know from each of you, what is your relationship to your own heritage?
Kat: Well, I'm half Colombian, half Peruvian. So even that in itself has really colored my experience of how I'm a Latina because I think that most people, even when you hear someone say they're... Like Alvaro. Like, "I'm Colombian." It's one thing. So even when I was younger I struggled with like, "Am I Colombian enough? Am I Peruvian enough? Like am I either? No, I'm born in the US." So-
Dylan: And also we live in a culture that kind of paints those as one.
Kat: Right, exactly. But ultimately I held both to be true. Luckily both of my parents allowed me to go to both of their countries often. That was basically my summer camp, is going to Lima and Bogota. And so I luckily also speak Spanish. But I know that after moving out from my parents' home, I lost a little bit of how fluent I was. I think a lot also of my culture is confusion. Confusion about who we are, who I am, and just navigating that. And I think maybe that's why I'm a little more accepting to change in terms of what our culture is, is because I've had to.
Alvaro: Kat, let me ask you a question. Since you have come from, I would say three different cultures; Colombian, Peruvian and American, now have you always felt that you needed to defend yourself from either side? You always have to prove yourself you're more Colombian than a Colombian, more American than American, more Peruvians than a Peruvian?
Kat: Yeah. Yeah.
Dylan: How so?
Kat: I mean, when growing up especially. I grew up in a pretty white neighborhood here in New York and I'd have friends tokenize me as like, "Oh you're that spic." Like-
Dylan: Oh.
Kat: Yeah, I got that all the time. Or just the fetishizing especially as me as a woman. It's like, "Oh, she's a slut." Like just because of me being different. Like people wanted to-
Dylan: The exotification of the Latina woman.
Kat: Exactly. At a very, very young age. But then when I would go to my parents' countries, it's like, "You're not Colombian at all." Or you're like, "You're not Peruvian at all." Or folks here would be like, "You have an accent." Then I would go to Columbia, Peru and be like, "Girl, you don't have no accent when you speak Spanish. Like not at all." So yeah, it's a constant, like I'm not enough for anyone.
Dylan: Yeah. Alvaro, what prompted you to ask that?
Alvaro: In a way I think that I relate because I'm... I grew up in Columbia and I moved back and forth. I came here when I was seven years old and then I moved back later on and finished my high school there. But it's always been very hard for me because... You know how our parents are. Your parents are like, "I can't believe you're going to go hang out with this American kid. They're going to do this and they're going to do that. They're also quiet." And then when you go to the American kids, they're like, "Why are you Spanish people like this? Why do you have to make so much noise? Why do you have to have so loud music?" And all that kind of stuff. So it kind of developed me into how I am now. You can tell in my voice that I get kind of passionate and defensive about my culture. So I always had to defend both sides. But then when I started growing up and started seeing my family, and started going back to Columbia, and finishing my school there, that's when I found myself, what I felt as my identity. So when I came back here, it always feels like somebody who's always trying to label you and put you in a box and take away what you are. You understand what I'm saying?
Kat: Yeah, absolutely. I have a question for you Alvaro. I'm curious why you wanted to actually talk, like why you wanted to talk on the podcast, why you said yes.
Alvaro: I wanted to talk on the broadcast because from my perspective, like I said, every time I see one of these type of shows or any type of videos, it bothered me. It's like, "Oh, here goes somebody telling me what to do again, how to live my culture." And everything else, and I felt, like I said before, it's an outside source just trying to change me, who I am, my identity, the way how I speak, the way I act, the way how I talk. And I wanted to get that voice across and have an explanation of why I feel the way that I feel, the way that I talk. And I feel that others in the community because that's where identity comes from. Within our community, that's how we feel and the way we are. You understand what I'm saying?
Kat: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah.
Alvaro: And I also felt a little bit naggy. Sometimes when I looked at the videos, I see you just looking at the camera and you're telling them what to do and it feels like you're talking down to someone.
Dylan: Is that the intention?
Kat: No, it's not the intention at all. I don't know if you know this Alvaro but I don't just make the Kat Call, I make other videos that my face isn't in it so you wouldn't know.
Alvaro: Yeah, I haven't seen the others. I have to admit I have not seen them. That's okay.
Kat: No. Yeah, and that's okay. And so the reason why I even made the series is because of the comments on the videos that I would make. Not videos with my face in it, like videos about other people, whether that's like Afro Latinos or like queer Latinx folks. And I would read the comments and the comments were just filled with like lots of hatred, but I kind of saw it as not just malicious-
Alvaro: And how did that make you feel?
Kat: Very sad. Of course. Very sad because we say we are all one, we're all this community that we call ourselves Latino, but why are we breaking each other down? What does it matter if you're queer and Latino? What does it matter if you're Afro Latino? Like aren't we all supposed to be under this umbrella? And if so then we need to learn more about each other. So anyways, that's why I created the series was to basically speak to us. Not to speak to John (speaking spanish?) Like I'm trying to talk to like us. And so yeah, that's never my intention is to talk down to people. A part of me feels that regardless of how my delivery is, people will always feel like that because it may bring them out of their comfort zone. And then another part of me says that your criticism is constructive and I'm constantly trying to think of better ways to deliver my messages.
Alvaro: And you're making me feel kind of bad. I thought that I was a bit rough on you.
Dylan: No, Alvaro that's exactly why we're here. We're talking about it. This is so much better than a comment section. Look at us.
Kat: Right.
Dylan: I mean, yeah, I totally get it. I also think that, I do think that that's true Alvaro. I think a lot of times when we're being given new information that doesn't jive with us or fit with how we want to see the world, I think we look for flaws in the person who is giving us that message. You know what I mean? You agree?
Alvaro: I agree. No, no, I completely agree. Sometimes people are very resistant to change or to new information and sometimes we don't give it a chance before even listening to it.
Dylan: Yeah.
Kat: That's true.
Dylan: Alvaro, you summed up this whole podcast. No I think you're totally right.
Alvaro: Yeah. But let me ask you the same question that you asked me while ago. Why did you come and talk here with me?
Kat: I think because as someone whose career is basically just constantly pumping out videos, I don't get to interact with folks. All I see are the comments and sometimes it's like very, very negative, regardless if it's me in front of the camera and I was interested in knowing what compelled you to write that, your perspective, your background, what colored that moment for you to write that, and honestly because the comment that I'm annoying is something that I get a lot, which I'm fine with. That's fine. I'm not everyone's cup of tea and I'ma have to live with that. So I kind of also just wanted to know, "Okay, out of the many people who think I'm annoying, like tell me why I'm annoying."
Dylan: Yeah.
Kat: Yeah.
Dylan: Alvaro, have you ever been called annoying?
Alvaro: Plenty of times. As you can tell, I get very passionate when I'm on the phone, so once I get into discussion like I can keep on going and going and going. Like, "Okay, please stop. I get it now."
Dylan: Right. I think it's just natural human tendency to dismiss someone you disagree with, right? Alvaro, what you can do to dismiss whoever's in this video talking about this topic that you disagree with. And Kat, it's what you could have done to not come on this podcast to talk to Alvaro, right? It's so easy for us, those who receive comments, those who write comments, and I would say all of us are both right. Like we all receive and give comments and it's so easy to just not want to engage with anyone who says anything negative about you because that seems like too much energy. I don't want to talk about that. It seems like a too much energy to engage with someone who, Alvaro from your perspective, is kind of trying to change a language that is a dear and close part of your culture, both of your cultures.
Kat: This sounds corny, but I do believe this, that change doesn't happen if we're comfortable. And I think if you make people feel uncomfortable, then they're probably going to find you annoying. So I say, me and you Alvaro, just continue being annoying.
Dylan: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
Alvaro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dylan: So I guess to close this out, I have to ask, Alvaro do you think you're open to using the term Latinx now?
Alvaro: I'm open. Yeah, I'm open to using the term Latinx. Just don't force it as a whole thing. Like if I come up to a person and the person says, "This is how I identify myself." I have no problem. Because sometimes I see people try to use it interchangeably with the whole Latino community, which I don't like.
Dylan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). And Kat, has anything changed for you in terms of your desire to share what the X means in Latinx?
Kat: No. I think what Alvaro pointed out were many flaws in the term than I was already aware of. I still use it interchangeably just because you never know who's listening, who's in the audience. It doesn't mean that I'm always using Latinx, but I am sometimes conscious when I remember to use it just because there were folks who sent me messages privately who were very thankful that this was being addressed and that they felt like they were finally seen. But maybe what has changed is, should I be having conversations with everyone who calls me annoying? Because this has been a great time.
Dylan: Maybe Alvaro's special.
Kat: Okay. Only Alvaro.
Dylan: Yeah.
Alvaro: Okay.
Dylan: Well thank you both so much for being willing to do this. I really appreciate it, so thank you both so much for being part of this.
Kat: Thank you.
Alvaro: No problem. It was a great pleasure.
Kat: Bye Alvaro.
Alvaro: Bye bye Kat.
Dylan: Bye.
[Phone call ends with a hang up sound. The drumbeat from ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals kicks in.]
Dylan [VOICEOVER CLOSING CREDITS]: If you'd like to be a guest on this show and take your own online conversation and move it offline, please visit www.conversationswithpeoplewhohateme.com for more information.
Conversations With People Who Hate Me is a production of Night Vale Presents. Vincent Cacchione is the sound engineer and mixer, Christy Gressman is the executive producer the theme song is These Dark Times by Caged Animals. The logo was designed by Rob Wilson, and this podcast was created, produced, and hosted by me, Dylan Marron. Special thanks to Adam Cecil, Emily Mueller, and our publicist, Megan Larson.
We'll be releasing episodes every other week, so I'll see you in two weeks with a brand new conversation.
Until then, remember, there is a human on the other side of the screen.
[Chorus of ‘These Darks Times’ by Caged Animals plays.]