Dylan Marron

 EPISODE 18: CIVILITY

Ryan: I think sometimes when you're in those cultures and it's so suffocating, sometimes you just want to say, "Shut up, faggot." You know what I mean?

[Instrumental of ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals begins to play.]

Dylan [VOICEOVER INTRODUCTION]: Hey and welcome to Conversations With People Who Hate Me, the show where I take negative online conversations and move them offline. I'm your host, Dylan Marin and today we are talking about the idea of civility. If you've logged onto social media recently, you may have seen some members of the left arguing with each other about how we should treat and speak to the "other side." Whether it's how to treat government officials at restaurants, what words we use to describe the daughter of a president or how we speak to and about the president himself. The left is divided. Some feel that we should be polite and civil while others believe that we should say whatever expletives we want to say to the people in power. Either way, witnessing these arguments play out in concise clap backs on social media can be disheartening in my experience. So I wanted to host one of those conversations here. My two guests today are Ryan and Mike and they didn't know each other before this call. So what brought them together? Well, my Facebook algorithm. As luck would have it, Ryan and Mike are both Facebook friends of mine and they both shared the same article at the same time. It was an op ed from the New York times arguing that liberals shouldn't use expletives when referring to the president and other members of his staff and the doing so would get him reelected. Ryan and Mike both had very different takes. Mike shared the article saying, "Important advice," while Ryan shared the same article with the comment, "Please tell me how to communicate with Trump voters. Faggot." Now first I'll speak with Ryan, then I'll speak with Mike and then I'll connect them to each other. So let's get started.

[Music fades. Conversation begins.]

Dylan: Hi Ryan.

Ryan: Hi Dylan. I'm doing great this morning. What's up?

Dylan: I'm just hanging out. I'm looking at our waveforms. So Ryan, how is your day going so far?

Ryan: It is going great. It is sweltering heat outside.

Dylan: It is.

Ryan: I'm a pale, pale boy.

Dylan: Are you sunscreened?

Ryan: No.

Dylan: You're not. You’re not.

Ryan: No, I just try to stay out of the sun. It's more of a zero sum game for me.

Dylan: You're trying to escape it.

Ryan: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dylan: So Ryan, in only as many details as you're comfortable sharing, tell me about you.

Ryan: My name is Ryan. I moved here to New York about four years ago. I work at a theater, which I love. I moved here from Virginia.

Dylan: Nice.

Ryan: And I moved here to do comedy because I love comedy and I wanted to be surrounded by interesting, funny, intelligent, queer people.

Dylan: Yes. They're all here in New York city.

Ryan: That I have found.

Dylan: Tell me about where you moved from.

Ryan: I grew up in a small town, a very small town, very rural. It's like Trump country. It has a big Confederate culture there. Like my school was built during segregation and the mascot is the Confederate soldier.

Dylan: Whoa.

Ryan: People cling to that and I think it spreads into other ideologies in their lives where it's this denial of history, this denial of truth. For me, it's nothing new. I'm used to it. So that's where I'm from.

Dylan: This is a good segue because what we're here to discuss is that two friends of mine on Facebook shared the same article. You are one of them. Now it's important that we first lay out the gist of this article. This article was basically saying Democrats will lose the election if we continue to celebrate the famous people who shout expletives at members of the Trump family. So Mike shared the article and he said, "Important advice." And then you also shared the article and you said, "Please tell me how to communicate with Trump voters, faggot," with many T's.

Ryan: Many T's in all caps, just the end, not the whole thing.

Dylan: So, "Please tell me how to communicate with Trump voters. Faggot." Tell me why.

Ryan: So I read it and I disagreed with it and I think he also was being condescending in his article. He's telling us who are reading his stuff and on social media, "This is the solution. I know how to win the election." And I read it and I thought, "No, you don't." And, and I think that's a belief that a lot of people hold this idea that like they go low, we go high. That's just not my philosophy in life.

Dylan: What this article is basically talking about is a very hot button word right now, which is civility.

Ryan: Yes, civility.

Dylan: What are your thoughts on that word or that, I guess directive that we must be civil to the people we disagree with.

Ryan: It's like a tool of white supremacy at the end of the day because of the institutions in which you're asked to be civil. It's mannerisms that are biased towards people who already have the ability to achieve without like accommodating people. You know what I mean? Like at the University Of Virginia there's like this, there's this motto. It's an honor code that they instituted for like over a hundred years and it's, "I will not lie, cheat or steal." And for me that's an anti poor statement because of course you don't have to lie, cheat and steal if you've already done it in the last 300 years and you have and property and wealth and a legacy at prestigious universities. Of course you can be civil because you have access and when you have access you can just walk in places and you're given everything.

Dylan: Yeah. This is a more introspective question. If you, Ryan are being told, don't use expletives to speak to or about people who are in this administration that you really disagree with, why does that bother you personally so much?

Ryan: Maybe it's because I use expletives. I studied in school politics and I studied like how to accommodate a plurality in a democracy. And there's this idea that in a democracy there's always going to be people who lose. But I think it's this idea that when you're losing, there always has to be room for people to express the resentment at the loss. And that's what keeps democracy civility going. Like it's more civil to allow people to react, to express their anger rather than hold it in some sort of political strategy or moral code. Because saying, "Fuck Trump," is not going to make people turn against you. It's not going to make people hate you and vote against you. Because when I was growing up during like the Obama era and I campaign for Obama in rural Virginia and I heard like the N word said and it was like chased away from doors. I know-

Dylan: Because of your sexuality?

Ryan: No, just away from doors because I was like, "Hi vote for Barack Obama."

Dylan: What? Just the simple fact that you-

Ryan: Yeah, me and straight people alike.

Dylan: We are all equal after all. We're all chased away.

Ryan: We're all chased by the same ... That was my thing is, like I was saying earlier, I come from a culture of Confederate culture, is this idea of, "Oh slaves were happy when we freed them. They didn't want to be free. They were so happy. They cried when we freed them. They were so sad about being free." There's people who believe that and they go through the day and they go through their lives and they hold positions of power and they believe that to be true. They've bought into these, these agendas, these rhetorics, these stories that are fake. So we don't have to say, "Fuck Trump," for those people to hate us. You don't have to provoke people who hate you for them to hate you. You just have to exist.

Dylan: So this is a good segue because you are about to speak to someone who had a very different take on this article. How do you feel about that?

Ryan: I can't wait.

Dylan: Okay, great. Well then, I'm going to go chat with Mike and then we'll all chat together.

Ryan: Okay.

[Solo conversation ends. Phone rings. Second guest picks up.]

Mike: Hello?

Dylan: Hey, how are you?

Mike: Good. How are you doing?

Dylan: Oh, I'm good. I'm good. How's your day going so far?

Mike: Pretty good. Put my baby to sleep.

Dylan: Yeah. You put your baby to sleep. What was that process like?

Mike: Oh God. I know he's tired. I know it's his nap time. I know he really is thirsting for that bottle of milk or something inside of him telling him, "Stay away. Stay awake. Annoy your dad for just a few more minutes." But finally he fell asleep and it was perfect cause it was, he fell asleep like just a few minutes before I was supposed to call you for this interview. So I'm glad he fell asleep.

Dylan: Well great. Maybe he's a big listener of conversations with people who hate me and he's like, "You know what, dad has to do this. I believe in this." Okay Mike, let's start here in only as many details as you're comfortable sharing. Tell me about you.

Mike: So my profession is a teacher. I'm a middle school teacher and my life outside of that right now with as a parent I have two kids and I have a husband.

Dylan: Oh my God, congratulations, the full fam.

Mike: Thank you. So we're raising two kids. And as a middle school teacher I teach English and history and identity studies and a little bit of theater.

Dylan: Okay. So Mike, what we are here to talk about is a gift of the social media algorithm. And I was scrolling on my newsfeed one day and one article was shared by two different people who I was connected to you and a guy named Ryan. And both of you shared the same article with a very different take on it. You shared the article and you said, Important advice." I want to hear from you in your own words, what spoke to you about the article?

Mike: Yeah, so the article was published right after two high profile celebrity disses of people in the Trump family. So one of the celebrities with Samantha Bee who had done a whole segment then, I don't remember what it was on now because it was overshadowed by the word she used at the end. I think it was around-

Dylan: I think it was actually about immigration.

Mike: ... migrant families.

Dylan: Yeah, migrant families and migrant kids.

Mike: Right. And the kids who are being separated from the family. And she had meant to focus on that. And then the last line of her script, she used a really awful C-word to describe Ivanka Trump. And that was what got. Later when she apologized, she said, "I just stepped on my strategy because I had been hoping to highlight these people who were in this situation and the policies administration and instead it ended up being derailed." And the other was Robert DeNiro at the Tony's where the Tony had had a strategy of highlighting the Parkland students and their drama teacher and gun legislation. And instead all of the publicity became about, "Look, Robert DeNiro called Trump a whatever."

Mike: That essay was pointing out that it's important to keep the focus on what's happening rather than vilifying people. Because what that does is it can, it has a potential to close the door on people who might be willing to listen to what you're saying about what the issues are, but feel like, "Oh, you're just going down into the gutter with Donald Trump and I'm not going to listen to anything and just tune out."

Dylan: And to put this in the context of the bigger conversation that's happening in our world, in this country is the idea of civility. How would you define the word civility?

Mike: Yeah. The more I think about this, the more, I don't think that's a helpful word for this conversation.

Dylan: Really?

Mike: Yeah, because I think what it's come to mean in recent weeks and months is the idea that we should roll over and prioritize niceness over justice. But I think what I'm in favor of is targeted anger is strategic anger. What I don't think is productive is heckling someone just because you hate them and you call them names and you tell them to get out of your restaurant or whatever it is because what that does is it makes them, and most importantly, their constituents are people who feel like they support them, hammer their stake into the ground even harder.

Dylan: What makes you believe in this?

Mike: I guess as a teacher, as I'm working with kids on social awareness and their skills as people, I'm thinking about what world do I want them to grow up and build. It's definitely not a world where people are calling each other names and attacking each other all the time. Nor is it a world where people just cave into each other's other positions and just let people trample over them and they can pretend to agree about everything. I think the world I want my students to build is the one where people vehemently disagree but do so in a way where they can hear each other but they can listen to each other.

Dylan: I assume you're saying this because you've seen this work as a tactic in your classroom. Right?

Mike: Yeah. Oh definitely. Yeah I mean just talking about race with white boys with wealthy white boys and race and gender with the wealthy white boys can be really stunning. Watching them become aware for the first time, not just of their privileges and their invisible advantages, but how the system works to privilege them, how they get the benefit of the doubt in ways that people sitting in the room with them don't. When they realize this and then they write about it. It doesn't happen for everyone, but just watching their eyes open metaphorically on the page and in class discussions is really, really inspiring.

Dylan: Well this is a good segue because you're about to speak to someone who shared this same article and he had a very different take on it. How are you feeling about going into this conversation?

Mike: I'm interested to hear what he has to say and to understand where that's coming from. I hope I won't feel I'm tempted to call him a name, but if I do, I hope I can restrain him.

Dylan: Okay, great. Look at you practicing what you're going for. And so the next step is that you and Ryan are going to speak.

Mike: Okay, great. Look forward to it.

[BREAK]

Dylan: Mike, you're on the phone with Ryan. Ryan, you're on the phone with Mike and we're all here together.

Mike: Hi Ryan.

Ryan: Hey Mike.

Dylan: This is lovely. This feels like we're doing a Facebook IRL because you are two Facebook friends of mine who came in contact with each other in the algorithm of my newsfeed where both of you shared the same article at the same time with as we all know, very different takes. So just in the most bite-size sense, I would love for you guys to hear from each other where you're coming from. Mike, let's start with you. What resonated positively about the article with you?

Mike: Yeah, so for me, in the context of political strategy, and I think that that article resonated with me in been saying look like the way to make sure we don't lose the election is being strategic about our expressions of anger so that we, yes, can mobilize the people who are already angry but also leave the door open to convince people to become angry about things we're angry about without making them feel like we're attacking their people.

Ryan: So when I read the article, I felt it was condescending. So I come from Trump country, that's where I was bred. I think he seems just absolutely removed and I don't think it's just him. I think it's like a popular culture that I've seen through the election. This idea that we have to appeal to moderates. They're just waiting for us to like give them permission to come over and vote for a candidate that's not Trump. There are people who have these like moral values and they don't like profanity. And I think it's wrong. It sounded like somebody giving advice to the readers without doing the research. I mean, I don't censor myself when I go home. I don't change the way I feel. I don't change the way I talk and the people that I grew up with don't hate me for it, and a lot of times pointing out how ludicrous things are that people are saying is better than trying to find some sort of like common ground or civility.

Mike: I really thank you for saying those things and I think, I think you expressed them beautifully. I don't necessarily believe we should be becoming more moderate, looking for common ground. I don't necessarily believe that. I definitely don't believe that people who voted for Donald Trump don't appreciate profanity clearly if voted for Donald Trump, they don't have a problem with it.

Ryan: Yeah, yeah.

Dylan: What I do think is that if ... I want to make sure that for me that I'm clear about what my values are and how we treat people and in my political discourse I want to be true to those. If we as liberals, progressives believe in the dignity of everyone, no matter who they are, and we believe that people should be listened to no matter who they are. That in our discourse, we make sure that we are living those values.

Ryan: No, I appreciate that standpoint too. I think you said it really well. I just think it's not the same. It isn't the same because for me, Donald Trump says things that are explicit that are false. Mexicans are criminals the statistics are against him. But if I say that, "Fuck them. Their family is a part of a culture that runs this country economically, socially, and culturally because of where they live, what they do, where they shop, where they vacation." I feel like that's honest. And if I want to use expletives when I pointed out, it might not be treating people in the way that they want to be treated, but I certainly don't think that it alienates Trump voters. I love using expletives in political language in my everyday language. I mean, even in the status, I said faggot.

Dylan: in response to an article about saying you shouldn't use expletives. You said, "Hey, I'm going to call the author of this article a faggot, as a faggot myself." And Mike, where do you stand on that word? Faggot.

Mike: Yeah. So I think in the broader context, notice that the conversation is about the use of those words rather than about the very legitimate point that Ryan made right before talking about the word faggot, where he talks about how the Trump family is complicit in this whole power structure of that. That's the conversation we should be having. I think that now the debates all about should we use the C word, the F word, the other F word like that. If we took those words out, then the conversation we'd be having, we would have the substantive issues and the systems that work that are often invisible to people they don't see. So I do believe in calling people out for what they're complicit in. I believe in doing it in a way that is strategic and keeps the focus on what we want to be talking about so that the focus doesn't veer off to whether we're using civil language. Because that's not an important conversation. It ends up being a conversation we have.

Dylan: But it's funny because then we just had a little microcosmic conversation of that. We just evolved into talking about whether or not to use the word faggot.

Ryan: I think though, it's interesting you saying that like we want to make sure we're staying on track, we're staying on track, we're talking about the issues. I mean where I'm from, a lot of times there's people there where you don't have to do anything to provoke them. When I was campaigning for Barack Obama in Virginia, there were people who hated him just for being. And the conversation turned towards something else. So we don't need to give them an excuse not to talk about the issues. They're going to say he's a Muslim from Africa. Did we provoke that? No, we didn't. But that became news regardless of who's doing it. Us who are saying expletives and then calling people out for their behavior. Because sometimes you'll say like, "Oh, immigrants aren't criminals." And they're like, "Wow, that's an expletive. That's a radical statement." And so I don't think we ... it's like we're not distracting people. I refuse that sort of argument. Yeah.

Mike: Ryan, when I hear what you're saying and I think it's all true. What I worry about is like if we're ever going to emerge as a society from this political era where it's all about this is true. No, this is true. This is true, this is true. And everyone has a different idea of what's true, we're not going to do it by villainizing people on both sides. We're not going to be able to get out of the situation we're in- [crosstalk]

Ryan: But you said something interesting. If we're ever going to get out of this political era where we're just fighting over truth. Where I'm from, truth has always been relative because I grew up in a very Confederate culture where I'm so serious, there's people who go through their everyday lives thinking that like most slaves were treated like family. I think that a lot of people are viewing this as an era, an we have to get through, an era we have to address an era where truth is relative. And for me it's always been this way and it's something that I've always had to deal with and it's something that I've tried to escape. When I grew up, our attorney general said that gay people were unnatural and that was during like a vote on whether or not to put a gay marriage ban in the constitution of the state of Virginia.

Ryan: And I remember my family voting on that initiative. So it for me, I think sometimes when you're in those cultures and it's so suffocating and you don't have a home to go to that safe and you don't have a school to go to that safe. And sometimes you just want to say, "Shut up faggot." You know what I mean? Like that's what I think people like the man who wrote the article misunderstand is they don't understand the war. First of all, it's been going on longer than they think. And a lot of us have tried to escape it and it's harder now than it was. But we're also more prepared for it. Because we know that being civil isn't going to work because they're not going to care that you're civil, they're going to find things that you're doing that aren't civil and paint them that way and destroy you.

Mike: Assume you've convinced me.

Ryan: Yay.

Mike: No, no. Assume you've convinced me, comma, what is your vision or hope for what happens with this war and now? Does it just keep expanding and destroy the society? What is the playbook? If the playbook isn't to use the now boogie word, civility, what is the playbook?

Ryan: Right. I mean that's scary. Because my perfect world is not like, Oh Trump people die and like Clinton people reign. That's not my world. I love my family back home and there are people back home who I still talk to and some of them did vote for Donald Trump. And I don't know. Like I said, I don't censor myself when I go home and some people don't talk to me because of it and some people like will push me out of their lives. I guess like what I tried to do to like find common ground with people back home is just tell them about what I hate about living up here. I agree with them on one thing. There's one thing that I agree with on Trump voters back home and that's it. There is an elitist, closed community in cosmopolitan areas that do not give access to people who are impoverished, whether it be white people or especially people of color. And these people are liberal and they espouse liberal values and they vote for Democrats and they live these lives that make them feel good and feel altruism. And they go to the fundraisers and they go to the alumni reunions and they go to these things. And then I just try to say, "I hate them too." And we find common ground in that way. I guess that's my ideal world. So now I'll answer it. My ideal world is when people who are being civil confront those Trump supporters at their Columbia grad school reunion. You call them out because if you went to Wharton business school, you know the Trumps went there and they're not the only ones. So it's you're the ones who have access to these people. When I went to the University of Virginia and I found out that I was going to school with people who are the children of the people who were like destroying the fabric of my state and denying opportunities like Medicaid expansion to people who I love, who voted for that man who denied them the opportunities. It's like where does it stop? Like do we keep telling working class white people to stop voting for Trump or do we like attack the people that they're voting for? So like call them out.

Mike: So I find myself agreeing with almost everything you're saying. The place where I think we part ways and I say I think because there's a part of me that agrees with a hundred percent of what you're saying. The place where part of me disagrees or thinks differently is in how you confront those people. Not whether, but how. And I guess the place I'm coming from is as a teacher of middle school students teaching about systems of injustice and cultures of power and the very things we're talking. Where a lot of the kids in my class are white. A lot of the kids in my class are male. And in my class I'm telling them or letting them understand for the first time that they are part of the system that oppresses people and they didn't realize it. And so then the question is how do you do that? Do you tell them all this and say, "How dare you? How dare your family?" They're probably going to not listen to anything more than you have to say. They're not going to listen to your message. They're going to hammer their stake down in the ground harder like, "This is my people and this is my family." So they're then shut off from learning. And another way of doing it is to teach them about the system itself and temporarily at least separate them as people from what's happening. When you call people out, you might be completely justified to doing that. It makes total sense. And I think it makes the person calling out the feel good and brave and bold. But then what? I think on one hand, every moment is an educational environment. I think we're all, especially now we're all tasked with being teachers of each other. I think here on this, on this discussion, you've been a fantastic teacher. I think that one of the reasons why I'm receptive to what you've been saying is that you're not attacking me. In the field of education it's well documented that if someone feels like they are under attack in a learning situation, that their learning is going to be cut off there. They're only going to be thinking about that attack, what other people are thinking about them. Is that person out to get them? And all the other information and all the other conversation happening is not going to get through. And so if we all think of ourselves as teachers vent your anger, make sure that the person you're talking to understands the intensity of how you feel and makes sure it's done in a way where you're not cutting off their continued learning. Now I think that a lot of what you're saying resonates so much to me that I think like, "Yeah, of course, you can call them out and then the months, years down the road they'll remember it and they'll keep dwelling on it and eventually they'll kick into that." That can happen too. And I think part of the educational environment that I'm in as a teacher that's limiting is that I can't be as direct a calling out voice as I might want to be because I'm trying to reach a bunch of kids, but I think it's something to remember. So I think this conversation has actually made me more ambivalent is not the right word, but more ambivalent about what I think the right answer is. I'm definitely open now to Ryan's perceptive about how to confront and talk to people. I don't think it's the right answer, but I also don't think that the answer I started with as the right answer, I think my answer now is it depends. And that makes me more scared actually.

Ryan: Yay.

Mike: Because yeah, if you don't know who your audience is .. if you don't know who your audience, then you don't know which strategy to use. And so yeah, maybe it is better just to, whatever's on your mind, just say it and it's, at least it's authentic. But I do worry that it coarsens the political conversation and social conversation even more. And the more we go down that road, the harder it is to get out of it. I was going to say get back, but I'm from what Ryan said earlier in the conversation, clearly we've never been there, but I think to ... I think ultimately like we need to be able to break out of the bubbles, not just to understand other people but to be able to talk with work with solve problems with everyone at the level of Congress and at the level of each individual family and friend groups.

Dylan: I just wanted to jump in here and I know that there is not a way to put a nice little bow on this because this is a conversation that I hope continues, but I actually really feel that you guys are both right and there is not a winner. There's not a loser. And what I mean by that is I see activism as a mosaic and all we can each be responsible for is our mosaic tiles. Mike, your activism meaning activism as a human. I'm not talking about like political sides here but, but the way you hope to advance humanity is in the classroom. So there are very specific tactics that work there. And Ryan, your form of activism, again by activism I mean existing and hoping that others like you can continue existing with more and more equality and comfort is largely informed by where you're from and how you need to get through to the people who are in your community, where you're from. And so I don't think there has to be this one way where we have to speak to other people and sometimes as I witnessed this conversation, meaning not just your conversation with each other you guys, but the conversation that we see play out on social media is that it's like sometimes I get scared like, "Oh, we're distracting ourselves with each other." We are distracting ourselves with telling each other what is the best way to feel anger when I don't actually think that one person is right. I think some people feel their anger for very justified reasons and other people feel their anger and funnel it through in a very justified way. And I think where the friction comes is that there is so much rage that fills us and that rage is justified and that rage is real. But then sometimes we funnel that rage to each other because we are the closest punching bags. Do you know what I mean? It is easier to yell at a fellow lefty that they're doing it wrong because they will listen rather than the people we are trying to rage at. So I guess in a conversation that can have a ribbon that is my ribbon.

Ryan: What a beautiful ribbon Dylan.

Dylan: What a beautiful ribbon!

Ryan: I'm looking at it right now.

Dylan: You're looking at the ribbon. So with that ribbon being said, are there any final things you guys want to say to each other?

Ryan: Mike, I just appreciate like everything that you've said and I also, I appreciate this conversation because I think it's really helped me clarify a lot of thoughts that I had in a really good way that were backed up by anger and now are more clear in my mind, which is how I feel and where I stand. And I think this has been so helpful.

Mike: Yeah. And Ryan, I want to thank you for going into detail about your story. One of the things as a teacher but also as a person, that's what I value a lot is the idea that we learn a lot more from stories and narrative than we do from just lists of things that are true. By talking about your background and your journey and then how you reflect on that and then the very nuanced ways you reflect back on that really helps me learn. And I hope it helps people listening to this learn.

Ryan: Oh yeah. And I'm so lucky. Well, obviously you've heard my politics, so you know, there's lots of people who are very patient with me and went out of their way to talk to me when they absolutely didn't have to. I feel very lucky and a lot of good teachers too. A lot of good teachers that got me to this place where I'm very happy.

Dylan: Thank you guys so much for being part of this. And I guess the final thing I will say is.

Ryan: Get out and vote.

Dylan: Get out and vote. I mean that's, that's a very important thing. Yes, please. Everyone listening, get out and vote.

Dylan: But thank you for doing this and we'll all see each other on the internet and maybe I'll see the two of you again intersect on my newsfeed.

Ryan: Yeah.

Mike: Probably will.

Ryan: Probably, will.

Mike: All right. Thank you so much.

Ryan: Thank you so much.

Dylan: Okay, bye guys.

Mike: Bye.

[Phone call ends with a hang up sound. The drumbeat from ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals kicks in.]

Dylan [VOICEOVER CLOSING CREDITS]: If you'd like to be a guest on this show and take your own online conversation and move it offline, please visit www.conversationswithpeoplewhohateme.com for more information.

Conversations With People Who Hate Me is a production of Night Vale Presents, Vincent Cacchione is the sound engineer and mixer. Christy Gressman is the executive producer. The theme song is These Dark Times by Caged Animals. The logo was designed by Rob Wilson, and this podcast was created, produced, and hosted by me, Dylan Marron. Special thanks to Adam Cecil, Emily Moler, and our publicist, Megan Larson.

We'll be releasing episodes every other week, so I'll see you in two weeks with a brand new conversation.

Until then, remember there's a human on the other side of the screen.

[Chorus of ‘These Darks Times’ by Caged Animals plays.]