Dylan Marron

 EPISODE 17: YOU ARE A LIAR

Emma: I guess I'm curious, Benjamin, now that I've filled in a bit of that stuff, do you still feel that the evidence stacks up against me?

Benjamin: I'm definitely more inclined to believe what you're saying as like the absolute truth.

[Instrumental of ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals begins to play.]

Dylan [VOICEOVER INTRODUCTION]: This is Conversations with People Who Hate Me, the show where I take the negative stuff we write online and turn it into the beginning of a conversation offline. I'm your host, Dylan Marron.

Sometimes I speak one on one to people who wrote negative things to me on the internet, and other times I moderate conversations between strangers. Today, I'm moderating.

Now before I continue, a quick heads up. This episode deals with rape and sexual assault. If that's not something that's right for you to be listening to right now, that's totally cool. Come back whenever, if ever, you're ready.

Emma Sulkowicz is an artist. Emma is also a rape survivor who became widely known for carrying a mattress around their university every day that their rapist was still allowed on campus. And Benjamin heard about this story and wrote Emma a message with just four words, “you are a liar.”

First, I'll get to know Emma. Then, I'll get to know Benjamin. And finally, I'll connect them to each other. So, let's get started.

[Music fades. Conversation begins.]

Dylan: Hi, Emma.

Emma: Hi.

Dylan: How are you?

Emma: Oh my God, it's the voice.

Dylan: It's the voice. This is my voice. It's not just a pretend voice for the podcast.

Emma: I know.

Dylan: This is my real voice.

Emma: Yeah, it just-

Dylan: We got a... there's a siren just passing.

Emma: Good, I hope they're saving someone.

Dylan: So, Emma, what are we here to do?

Emma: Do the intro to the podcast?

Dylan: Yes, that's exactly it.

Dylan: So, Emma, in only as many details as you're comfortable sharing, tell me about you.

Emma: I am an artist. I am 25. I use the pronouns they, them. I think what's relevant to this podcast at the very least is that I am well known for this artwork I did at Columbia University titled Mattress Performance, Carry That Weight.

Dylan: And what is Mattress Performance?

Emma: Yeah, Mattress Performance was this nine month endurance performance art piece that I did during my senior year at Columbia, where I carried a dorm room mattress that was the same type as the one that I was assaulted on everywhere I went on campus for as long as I went to school with the guy who assaulted me. I think I have to tell kind of the whole story. There are many people who react to trauma by freaking out. Whereas whenever there's a crisis, I kind of become more quiet. After my assault, I went to the bathroom, looked at the bruises on my neck, and made my bed and went to sleep. I told a few friends what had happened, but I didn't want to make a big fuss about it. I just kind of wanted to carry on with my life the way it was. I wanted it to not have happened. I think I may have unconsciously felt like doing something extra about it may have made it more of a big deal than I'd wanted it to be at all. So then I didn't do anything about it for months. But I was at this party and kind of locked eyes with this woman, and she just came up to me was like, "We need to get a coffee." And I was like, "Okay." I don't know what this could be about, but sure. So we got coffee, and she told me that she had been in an intimate partner violence relationship with him.

Dylan: With the person who assaulted you?

Emma: With the same guy. Yeah. And, then we were sitting on the steps of Low Library at Columbia, and we discussed other rumors we'd heard. And I reached out to some of them, and one woman had this really gruesome story. But she didn't feel comfortable speaking out about it. And then, the head of the literary society he and I are both in, told me that she'd received sexual assault complaints about him from three more members. So, in total, that was six people at Columbia who'd been assaulted by him. So, at that point, I realized that me being silent and just trying to go on with my life was actually putting people in danger because he was liable to harm more.

Dylan: And I'm sorry, how did this first person know about it, the woman who you first opened up to about it?

Emma: Because I'd told a few friends about it initially, and just said, "Don't tell anyone." But I guess rumors spread even when you tell your friends not to tell people. But I'm glad that they broke that promise to me because it ended up being a good thing. So me and two of the women who were assaulted by him, we opened up our college handbook, and it said call the Rape Crisis Center. So we did that, and they dragged our cases on for almost a year. They basically threw out each of our cases for different reasons. So it was at that time that just so happened to be that this woman, she was writing an article for the campus magazine about how Columbia handles these sexual assault cases. And one of her friends was one of my friends, and he said, "You two need to talk because this writer needs to hear this story." So, she wrote this anonymous article about me and the other two survivors. It kind of blew up, at least within the Columbia community, because people were shocked to read just how bad the procedures were. And it was at that time, that Senator Gillibrand was writing her campus sexual assault bill. And I guess someone on her policy team read the article. So Senator Gillibrand's team reached out to the magazine writer saying, "Would any of the anonymous survivors in your article me comfortable going public to show how important our sexual assault bill is?" So the three of us, the three survivors, kind of talked amongst ourselves and were like, "Okay, who's going to be public?" And one woman, he actually hadn't raped her, he tried to but she threw him off. The other woman just didn't feel like she had the confidence. And I guess I was like, "All right. I guess it's going to be me." So, I went public about being a survivor at Senator Gillibrand's press conference. And that blew up because an Ivy League sexual assault case is like everyone wants to get their hands on it.

Dylan: Because there's something media-friendly about that you mean?

Emma: Yeah, and I think honestly, that's kind of fucked up right?

Dylan: Oh yeah.

Emma: The fact that anyone should care about-

Dylan: One assault case more than another depending on how privileged the institution was where it happened or how fancy the institution was where it happened.

Emma: Yeah, and I think there's part of it that was like, wow these cultured college students would be doing something so terrible as if it's like more shocking.

Dylan: Yeah, it happens everywhere.

Emma: So there was an article written about this whole thing, and it was put on the front page of The New York Times. And that's when I started getting contacted by a lot of people being like, "You idiot, why did you go through the college Rape Crisis Center? You should have called the police." So I looked up the laws for the police, and sexual assault survivors in New York have up to five years to report a sexual assault case. So I was like, I'm well within my timeline. I can definitely do this. And I remember, I didn't want to do it during the school year because I was busy with work and stuff, and I knew how much work going through school was. So I was like, okay after I finish my final test for junior year, I'm going to call the police. So, my boyfriend at the time and one of my closest, closest friends came to my room, and we called the police. And they showed up, and they were so incredibly insensitive. And I think they were having fun. I think they were harassing me for fun. I took an audio recording of it on my phone because I was just so shocked. And working with the police was just such a mess. I mean, the detective kept being like, "Oh, so he got creative with you?" And I'd be like, "No, he got violent." And he'd be like, "Oh, you mean creative?" And I was like, "That's not-"

Dylan: Mmm, no, not-

Emma: It was so crazy, and they kept transferring my case to a different department when I'd have to tell my whole story again to a different person. And then they'd call me for details in the middle of the day and show up at my parents' apartment. It was just a total circus. I actually had to cancel the case because it wasn't going anywhere, and I felt like the police were just using it as an opportunity to harass me.

Dylan: And its also an incredibly vulnerable thing that you're doing. And to someone that has gone through so much trauma, and then is going through the additional trauma of coming forward about it, that sucks.

Emma: Yeah.

Dylan: I mean, I don't mean to be cavalier about it. I just mean, it sucks.

Emma: Yeah, thank you for acknowledging that. So, by the time the case got to the DA's office, she said, "I foresee this going to court in a year." I was like, well okay. By then, I'll have graduated. So, that what? This means that I'll get to hear from the police three times a day for the rest of my senior year? So that this case can maybe go to court? It didn't seem worth it.

Dylan: No, I get it.

Emma: So I completely cancelled the case, and I went to art residency where I came up with the idea for Mattress Performance. And refined the piece for the rest of the summer, and came back on the first day of my senior year ready to do it.

Dylan: And I was one of the many, many people following along. Just reading along about it.

Emma: That's so cool.

Dylan: Yeah, I mean it's kind of surreal, but that's my perspective of the media consumer. What did it feel like to be doing it?

Emma: I mean, what's so crazy is that I didn't think it would become media. I'd been on the front page of The New York Times already, but the only real performance art precedent that I was at all inspired by for this piece was the work by Tehching Hsieh. His works are extremely quiet, meditative, zen-like practices that have... no one's watching him do it the whole time. It's really about the internal, personal practice of these endurances. For a year, he would lock himself in a cage. Or he tied himself to another performance artist, Linda Montano, for a year, and they couldn't touch. So that's what I thought I was doing. I thought I was going to kind of recede into the background and do this very quiet performance art piece. But by the end of the first day, the piece... there were reporters following me to my dorm room. And I quickly realized that it was not going to be like what I planned. It just so happens to be when I'm upset about something, it doesn't come out as tears all that often. It comes out as an artwork. And for other people, it might be that it comes out as an essay that they get published. Or other people, it might come out as a song. And I really think that that when it came out of me, it came out as Mattress Performance. And then only in retrospect have I been able to put words to why I really did all the things that I did.

Dylan: Just want to check in, do you feel comfortable talking about this?

Emma: Yeah, yeah.

Dylan: Okay, great. So, with the whole ton of media coverage comes, for sure, a lot of attention. But you're also, naturally, going to get a lot of negative attention.

Emma: Yeah.

Dylan: What was that negative attention like?

Emma: Well, I mean a big one was, "You're a liar." A big one was like, "You're a cunt." I mean I was getting rape threats and death threats and just general sexist, racist insults to my school email. Some people found my personal email. My Facebook timeline, maybe it was a Wall back then. My Facebook messages. But I was just so freaked out by all the hatred that I really locked down and tried to keep everything as private as possible.

Dylan: So you're about to talk to a guy named Benjamin who wrote you a message that said, "You are a liar." How do you feel about that?

Emma: Honestly, the way I think about his message, is... I was thinking about this this morning. So you know how in Hitchcock's The Birds, they're all these big birds smashing against the windows of this house that the protagonist is in? I feel like in the kind of bird storm that I've experienced of like comments being hurled at me or messages being hurled at me, maybe like a million carrier pigeons with terrible, evil messages. Something about Benjamin's message was almost like a little sparrow pecking at the window. It seemed like one of the most gentle insults being hurled at me. And, I mean, obviously on its own, wasn't the most upsetting one. But I think it came during the storm of so many angry messages and really upsetting insults, that seeing it made me sick. But yeah, on its own, it's not the worst thing anyone's written to me. And I think that's perhaps why, when we were discussing who to talk to, I was quite excited to talk to him. I was like, there's something bizarrely gentle about this person who wrote me a mean message.

Dylan: Are you nervous?

Emma: I'm actually excited. I think that people who don't believe me usually don't believe me because they just see this kind of disembodied thing on the internet and don't realize that there's a person behind it. And when people meet me, they're usually like, "Oh, you're a person." And I've always gone into everything I've done in life way too naïve. So this could just be another symptom of my crushing naivety. But I'm hopeful. I'm really hopeful that once he talks to me, he'll realize that I'm not an evil liar. I'm actually just a person that's been trying to do the right thing all along.

Dylan: So I will go speak to Benjamin, and then we will all talk together.

Emma: Okay.

[Solo conversation ends. Phone rings. Second guest picks up.]

Benjamin: Hello?

Dylan: Hey, Benjamin. This is Dylan Marron, how are ya?

Benjamin: Pretty good, Dylan, how are you doing?

Dylan: I'm good. How's your day going so far?

Benjamin: My day is going very well. It's a good day. It's been a quiet day. I had a good breakfast, a nice smoothie.

Dylan: What is your smoothie regiment because I have one and I want to share.

Benjamin: Okay, it's a natural vanilla protein powder. I like it with strawberries, bananas, some manuka honey.

Dylan: Are we talking frozen bananas?

Benjamin: Frozen. Everything frozen.

Dylan: You got to. I throw some yogurt in mine. I've been doing flax seed. I've been even doing some spinach, which makes it feel super healthy. But anyway, that's my truth.

Dylan: So, Benjamin, in only as many details as your comfortable sharing, other than your amazing smoothie powers, tell me about you.

Benjamin: I am 24 years old. I am a Caucasian male, a straight Caucasian male. So, yeah. Hopefully that doesn't marginalize me to a certain part of your audience.

Dylan: No, we accept all types here.

Benjamin: Excellent. I think I'm a pretty normal guy. I've done all the classes for the Communication and English, but I still lack the science credit and the math credit. So I guess technically, I haven't graduated. I just got caught up in doing some stocks and making money. I haven't wanted to go back since, but I need to. I live a great life, for sure. But it's quiet. I haven't dated in a while so it gets kind of lonely. So all things considered, I'm certainly very blessed.

Dylan: You're living your life. So Benjamin, what we are here to discuss is that a few years ago, you wrote a message to Emma Sulkowicz. And you wrote, "You are a liar." Do you remember what exactly inspired you to write that?

Benjamin: I think I can project back into the past. I can't say that I'm in exactly the same mindset, but I think I just looked at the evidence. And I just found, based on the evidence, it was just hard to believe her claims were as she was representing them. I thought that the texts he released were incriminating against Emma. I just couldn't believe it. It's not that I didn't want to. It's that I just couldn't.

Dylan: Now, where were you kind of getting this information? This was the news?

Benjamin: Now that's a good question. I guess it was just from articles, I don't remember the exact sites, just multiple articles, multiple sources. From different angles, I guess. It was everywhere back then. I can remember hearing all about it. I remember hearing about it, I think I was a senior in high school. And I was sort of on the cusp of college. And I think like many males, I think morally normal males, we go into college hoping that if you're straight you'd have relationships. Kind of, start with that. There is a fear that being labeled a rapist, that's a really serious thing for a person's life. So I guess maybe that's why it resonated with me.

Dylan: So, you read this story and then you found yourself being defensive of Emma's accused rapist, right?

Benjamin: I just felt that relative to the evidence that was presented, to the best of my knowledge that was the objective evidence, I didn't think he was guilty. And I guess what you're asking is if I put myself in his shoes, yes, I was defensive. Not really, I guess, of him. I don't know him, but some weird, I guess, narcissistic way like if I was him sort of thing.

Dylan: This is interesting and, I mean, I do want to just acknowledge that we all kind of place ourselves into news stories in the... I do it. I'll speak for myself rather than saying it about you. I put myself into news stories, and I put myself in the shoes of the person who I identify most with. I think that's a naturally human thing. So, there was a sense where you felt defensive of this guy who was accused of this thing who you, based on the evidence that you saw, did not believe he was guilty of, right?

Benjamin: Right. And I'm defensive of him, not all men who are accused of rape. There is that distinction. I am defensive of him absolutely. There is a trend, in my opinion, where it's guilty until proven innocent. At least with a certain demographic. And i just disagree with that mindset.

Dylan: Shifting gears a little, how do you see or how do you take part in how do you consider the current national, international discussion about sexual assault on college campus and sexual assault in general in the age of the Me Too movement?

Benjamin: I guess, everything I say is just from a perspective of a person who has no real fear of it personally.

Dylan: Fear of sexual assault?

Benjamin: Right, that does absolutely factor in, in my opinion. With what's been going on with all these people in Hollywood, it's a huge issue. Men harassing women sexually. And I have no doubt that there's countless unreported rapes because people are afraid or aren't believed. I think that is abhorrent and awful. Like what I'm trying to say is, rape is awful. But, to me, so is having your reputation and life ruined by false allegation that absolutely happens as well. So like I said, I just try to be fair minded, and look at the evidence. And if it's incriminating, if somebody rapes somebody then they should be sent to prison and the key should be thrown away. Absolutely.

Dylan: So, you're kind of talking about the Me Too movement very favorably in the macro-sense, right? And yet, you're still sensitive to the potential for false accusations?

Benjamin: Right, I mean, it's not potential. So yeah, I'm against the reality of false accusations. Yeah.

Dylan: And do you think part of the reticence to believe Emma and Emma's story was partly because of the media attention?

Benjamin: It's hard to, again, it's hard to be in that same mindset I was in all those years ago. I don't doubt that that's, to some degree, played into it. I don't remember it being some kind of overpowering emotional endeavor, but maybe to a certain extent, yeah.

Dylan: Do you regret writing that to Emma?

Benjamin: I guess. I mean, even over a course of a year, it's just like, why write it? There is that element. I mean, it's stupid. But I agree, it's kind of like harassing. What good would it cause? I guess in that sense I do regret it. I was probably just reading something and just felt strongly in the moment, felt empathy for that guy and just wanted to, in my own insignificant way, be the counterbalance to something. I don't know.

Dylan: So, you're about to talk to Emma. How are you feeling about that?

Benjamin: I feel excited. I tend to get along with almost anybody.

Dylan: Are there any specific questions you have for Emma?

Benjamin: I mean, right now, no. I don't want to... Because I have empathy for her too now. After all this dust has settled, I'm sure this has been... God only knows the kind of things that people said to her. I feel like saying, "You're a liar." Maybe I should have said, "I don't believe what you said." Kind of like assuaging, not making it quite as blunt. But, I'm sure, this has been a tremendous tax on her as well. So, I have empathy for that. I don't like the thought that maybe, even if it was just a moment, causing pain to somebody. Even if it's over the internet. But at the same time, I don't necessarily regret it because I didn't make any kind of threat. I'm not saying that I have a 360 degree understanding of this. I'm totally willing to have my mind changed

Dylan: Yeah.

Benjamin: You know? All I can do is just go off of what I saw.

Dylan: Totally.

Benjamin: If that makes sense.

Dylan: I think that's the healthiest approach to take for life. Even, even-

Benjamin: Yeah, like what do I know? What do I know?

Dylan: Totally. Well, the next step is that you and Emma will talk to each other.

Benjamin: Awesome. I look forward to it.

[Phone rings. All guests are now connected.]

Dylan: Emma, this is Benjamin. Benjamin, this is Emma.

Emma: Hi, Benjamin. I just want to say that I'm so excited that you're doing this, and I'm so excited that this is happening. Thank you.

Benjamin: Likewise. Same to you.

[BREAK]

Dylan: You guys are on the phone together for the first time. Emma, this is Benjamin. Benjamin, this is Emma.

Emma: Hi, Benjamin. I just want to say that I'm so excited that you're doing this, and I'm so excited that this is happening. Thank you.

Benjamin: Likewise. Same to you.

Dylan: So to kick this off, the reason we're here and the reason we're on this call is that Benjamin a few years ago, you wrote Emma a message with very few words. You just said, "You are a liar." Emma, how did it feel to receive it?

Emma: Honestly, it wasn't even just Benjamin's message individually that hurt so much. It was the torrential outpouring from the internet of these kinds of messages into my lap.

Benjamin: I apologize for the hurt. I do sincerely apologize for that. I know it might sound trite. That wasn't my intention. But I don't apologize for the disagreement. You became a very public person, right? And from everything that I could see, you didn't shy away from the public eye either. Maybe some messages should be expected. I would never say like, any death threats or anything like that. I'd never do that. I hope that on the spectrum was rather benign one.

Dylan: No, totally. But I think the reason it's interesting that we all get to be on this phone call together is that there is a trend of not believing the testimony of rape survivors, right? So, no. I think we need to acknowledge this. That of course, while your message was by no means one of the most hateful that Emma was receiving, there was a lack of belief to it. And I think that's kind of really what I want to pinpoint for us to be here to talk about. Emma is there anything you want to say.

Emma: I feel like my whole experience of being a rape survivor is that from the moment it happened, I didn't want to believe I was a rape survivor, right? I don't even want to see myself as a victim, and I think that once you're like, okay I'm a rape survivor you realize okay. You have to come to terms with the fact that you've experienced something traumatic, and I really just didn't want to believe it myself. So, I guess I say this because I see why, Benjamin, you would have not believed me. Because, I mean, very few people believe rape survivors, including myself at the beginning. So, yeah, I guess so you can hear, Benjamin, to say what I said a little bit earlier-

Dylan [VOICEOVER]: In this portion of the call, Emma walks Benjamin through the entire account that Emma already walked me through in the beginning of this episode. Since you've already heard it, let's skip to the end.

Emma: ...so anyway Benjamin, I say this all to just... I mean, I hope give you a clearer picture of how people will say things like, "Oh, but you put yourself in the public eye," and it's like kind of by accident. I wonder how you take that.

Benjamin: Well, first of all, thank you for telling me all that. I'm going to go back and listen to that so it's even more clear on my end after all this is recorded. But, thank you. I could see that. I've never had anything go viral. I can definitely see how things just explode, and you were a college student. And not knowing exactly how to handle that. I mean, all I can do is just put myself in your shoes as best I can. But I mean, you did continue to carry the mattress. I guess I don't really know what to say. And you were on the cover of the magazine. The media coverage really isn't anything I... I don't really have a strong opinion about it. I guess maybe my opinion was... Initially what I said wasn't fair. I get your point that it sort of just happened. I get your point.

Emma: Thank you for saying that, and I very much understand that the media wants you to feel inflamed about me. Because the media makes money when people are like totally freaking out, you know? So, I understand why you would have had a sort of misguided impression about how I ended up where I ended up.

Benjamin: Yeah, I think, just to clarify, I think that I may have been operating on not all the information. And not only that, but I think I want to all the way backtrack to your original question, Dylan. I'm not a rape apologist. I think rape is completely abhorrent, and I promise you I'm 100 percent with you, you just have to believe me. You have to trust me on that. But I also, all I did was just went with the information that was available to me on the internet, and the texts that were released. And I found that a lot of it was incriminating against her case.

Dylan: Well, Emma, we should defer to you on this. What is your comfort level of talking about the event that happened or the case that happened?

Emma: I mean, obviously, the text thing was upsetting for me. But I'd be happy to discuss that here because I feel like it kind of gets at a crucial misconception people have. Not only about what happened to me, but rape cases in general. So I'd be happy, if it clarifies somehow, to talk about that here.

Dylan: Great, so you can feel free to bring that up.

Emma: So, before I tell you a bit about the text message conversation that you're bringing up, I know that there was a moment where he sued Columbia and the President of the University and the professor that advised me on my project. And in his lawsuit, he transcribed a number of Facebook messages that he and I had going back and forth. And those became very incendiary in the media. And in one Facebook message, I said something like, "Fuck me in the butt." Right? Is that what you're thinking of?

Benjamin: Right. The slew of them, but yeah. That one does come to mind, right.

Emma: I think that was the one that most people were fixated on. So the thing is that if you look at those messages that were released to the public, the conversation starts with, "Fuck me in the butt." But you have no idea what came before that.

Benjamin: I guess technically that's true. Right. I do have no idea what came before it. I can guess.

Emma: So the half of the sentence that came before that was something like, "Ugh, I have to wake up at 6:00am tomorrow." And back then, with my group of friends, and this is not a phrase that I recommend people take on in their group of friends. But we used to say, if we were upset about something, we'd say something like, "Oh man, I just got assigned another essay. Fuck me in the butt." And a version of that that I still hear today is people will say like, "Oh my God I have to take out the trash. Shoot me in the head." But no one actually wants to be shot in the head.

Benjamin: So you're saying it was sort of just like a... you didn't mean it literally. Is what you're saying.

Emma: Right. So honestly, one of the things that was so horrifying to me was cutting off the first half of the sentence that contextualizes it.

Benjamin: I have a question about that. After he said that, then the next response was, "Don't you miss my lopsided ass?" How does that play into the saying?

Emma: Are you looking at them now?

Benjamin: Yeah, I Googled it because it'd been awhile since I'd seen them. I hope you can see how it's confusing just to be objective sort of person who's just looking at this.

Emma: Yeah.

Benjamin: It just sounds like a person who's just kind of hinting at wanting to have anal sex.

Emma: Yeah, yeah. I totally see why if you saw that conversation without any context, you would have been so confused.

Benjamin: Right, exactly.

Emma: I'm pulling up this conversation right now because I'm genuinely curious now.

Benjamin: I don't want to attack. I have no reason. I don't want to be aggressive towards her. I know this is like sounding kind of aggressive. I'm not trying to do that.

Dylan: Emma, how are you feeling?

Emma: I'm feeling good. Oh my God. Okay, I found it. So, Benjamin, are you ready?

Benjamin: Hold on, let me get right to it. Yeah, okay.

Emma: Okay, so it says, "Fuck me in the butt." But the part that's been cut off is, "Oh, I have to wake up at 6:00 AM."

Benjamin: Okay, that is cut off. I can see how that's cut off.

Emma: Okay, so, "Ugh, I have to wake up early in the morning." I don't remember the exact wording of it, but like "Oh my gosh, I have to wake up early tomorrow. Fuck me in the butt." And then, "Maybe not. JK, I miss your face though." So he's making a kind of sexual joke. And then I'm laughing at his joke. I go, "Ha ha ha ha." Because I'm acknowledging that he's made a joke. And then I say, "You don't miss my lopsided ass?" Which is me making a joke off of his joke, right? And then he's continuing the joke, he says, "I do just not that much." So, I think anyone who saw that first crucial piece that he cut out before he released these Facebook messages, then the whole thing would make sense, right? Because then you would see that he's then making a joke, and then I'm laughing at his joke, and then I'm making a joke in response. Does that sort of clarify it a bit more?

Benjamin: That does clarify it. It does.

Emma: But then again, now that you understand the tone of the Facebook conversation we'd been having, even if I had for some reason given him the very sloppy proposition of fuck me in the butt. If we'd then met up that night and he'd proceeded to do that, and I decided that I didn't want to anymore, that's called revoking consent. And he would have had to stop. Does that make sense?

Benjamin: Yeah.

Emma: I guess I'm curious, Benjamin, if now that I've filled in a bit of that stuff, do you still feel like the evidence stacks up against me?

Benjamin: I'm definitely more inclined than I was an hour ago to believe what you're saying as the absolute truth. I just wish somehow I could have all the information right in front of me, you know?

Emma: Yeah.

Benjamin: But to answer your question, I'm more inclined to believe you.

Emma: Thank you. I mean, I know that takes a lot since you were predisposed to think otherwise before this phone call.

Benjamin: Like I said, I have a completely open mind. All I can do is go of the information I had. So now I understand that there's just stuff I don't know. Most of the time I think women are telling the truth, and I do think that is the truth. I don't think people are just going around accusing people of rape just because they woke up on that side of the bed. There's no reason to think that in my opinion. For the average, morally normal person. But I do think that men are also wrongly accused. Like I said yesterday, this African American gentleman spend 29 years in prison, in a box, for a rape that eventually forensics proved he didn't do. Like you two, I presume, if you're put back to him when he was being charged, would have believed her. Absolutely, flatly. So I think that does happen, too. And I think that there's a certain demo graph of people that just always believe women and there's people who never believe them, and I think somewhere in the middle. What does the evidence say? That's my position. I've thought about that. I felt such empathy in the same way I feel empathy for women who are raped and have to live with that for the rest of their life. I don't discount that. I know that that's a real thing. The PTSD. I absolutely believe that happens. I'm not saying that doesn't happen, but it is nuance. I think you have to be able to look at it in a nuance way.

Emma: Yeah, I was moved to hear that you have empathy for women who are the survivors of rape, and you recognize that they have PTSD. And there's so many ramifications of that kind of trauma. Given what I've told you, do you start to feel that empathy toward me as not only a person who's been raped, but a person who's had to suffer a lot of online hatred?

Benjamin: Yeah. I do feel a lot of empathy. Yeah, I'm sure you've heard horrendous things that have been said to you. I'm sure stuff that does not need to be said. But with that said, I still have my questions about the case. I'm in like a weird, ambiguous place. I'm just saying that the evidence is hard to... it's hard for me to take the evidence and call somebody a rapist from what I've seen.

Emma: I think a really hard thing about rape in general is that the majority of rape cases are going to go on completely under the radar, and I think that people who say things like, "I can't believe you unless you give me evidence that is like perfectly digestible and easy for me to take in," and all this stuff. The women and other survivors who have those kinds of experiences that they've kept in the shadows will never really feel safe talking about it.

Benjamin: I agree with that, but there is that fine line between people, of course, being able to come forward and speak their truth versus the witch huntiness kind of that can ensue unless there is like, where's the evidence? I'm open to the truth, you know? And there is some. Yeah, I still have questions about it all. There's some things that are questionable to me. Like it was all an art project? It just confused me. I'm getting clearer on it now, but it just confused me. When the initial rape occurred, you did the mattress. Which was part of, I read I think, it was for a credit? An art credit that you were doing that for, right?

Emma: Yeah, I was going to do it anyway, but it just so happened to be that I was a senior at Columbia and they were like, "You have to come up with a senior thesis for you Art major" and I was like, "Oh, can you credit this?" And they were like, "Sure." So it was actually that I was going to do Mattress Performance anyway, but then I just happened to get credit for it.

Benjamin: Okay. So it's just like, is it all art, you know? I mean, I just remember reading that and then seeing it. It's like is this some Machiavelli and this is all art? Just to raise attention about... It's just confusing to me.

Emma: Yeah. So, I'm an artist, and I've been an artist as long as I can remember. So when I'm sad or upset or angry, I just make an artwork about it. And there's so many people that when they're sad or upset or angry, will make a song. Or other people who when they're feeling some way, will write an essay. Or other people who will, I can' even think of any other creative things. Dance. They'll go out and dance. They're just people. Everyone expresses themselves differently. And for me, when I was feeling these very, very, very strong feelings, I would make these performance art pieces. So, does that kind of clarify that?

Benjamin: Kind of. And then you also did kind of a bondage thing?

Emma: Yeah, yeah. So, that actually has nothing to do with my rape at Columbia. I was accepted into this really prestigious program, and I was so happy to be accepted. Basically, while you're there, you read a bunch of art theory, and they help you hone your art practice into something that's very theoretically minded. And I was just like, I feel like in this program all of this stuff that we're reading and doing is actually holding us back. It made me feel very trapped. So for the final show, I expressed that. I did this artwork I which my co-performer in that show, we had him kind of binding me up in rope. I was trying to show that this program that thinks it's all that and a bag of potato chips is actually not very effective at doing anything because it's kind of bound by this institution.

Benjamin: Okay, now that I hear that in context, it makes more sense.

Dylan: Benjamin, throughout this call, sometimes you've said you still have questions. Partly because Emma was processing what had happened to them through art, there were questions. And then Emma, part of the way you processed this very traumatic thing that happened to you was by creating art, right?

Emma: Yeah.

Dylan: Yeah. So, and this is interesting because it's when we distill this down, it is a theme that happens unfortunately a lot in a lot of public stories where we have feelings about how someone is processing a thing that has happened to them. Do you think that's fair to say? That part of the disconnect that happened between you, Benjamin, and you, Emma, specifically Benjamin. You reading this national news story about Emma. Part of the disconnect was a judgment on how Emma is processing.

Benjamin: I don't think so. It wasn't like the crux of my issue or like, I was curious. But yeah, it made some questions arise. And I wouldn't handle it that way, but then again I have no idea how I would handle it, you know? I can't really make that judgment.

Dylan: And that, I think, is an inarguable statement, right? There's nothing to argue. I can't argue against that of you saying you have no idea you'd handle it, right? It's just a...I don't know. Emma, you were going to say something?

Emma: No, I was just... I think you've hit on something really important. I think that, I mean, Benjamin, or Ben, sorry I just called you Ben. I hope that's okay.

Benjamin: No, it's fine.

Emma: Cool.

Dylan: We're all old friends now.

Emma: We're all best friends now.

Dylan: Ben, Em, and Dyl.

Emma: I totally see why, from your position, why you'd be like, "Whoa, I thought that when a person is raped they scream and cry and call their dad," or whatever. But this person seems to be making art and doing quite big gestures afterward. Like what the fuck? I could see why you'd be like, "That doesn't make sense of the actions of what I've been told a rape survivor does." And then I can see that then stirring up a lot of disbelief in you.

Benjamin: Yeah, I mean honestly, you guys are like... I never even thought about it like this. Yeah, I think that plays a factor. Like really, I know this makes me sound like a simpleton, I'm just totally going off just the evidence. We don't need to keep on going over it. But that really was the basis. But everything you guys are saying, I really wasn't aware of thinking about it. But now that I think about it, yeah. I guess it is a factor in it.

Emma: Well, I’m glad we brought it up then because I think those thoughts are probably unconsciously happening in a lot of people who've seen my art.

Dylan: Yeah.

Benjamin: Yeah, yeah. Totally.

Dylan: And also, Benjamin, no. I don't think you're a simpleton. At all because-

Emma: Nor do I.

Dylan: Yeah, I don't think anyone is saying that, and I really hope you don't think that I was trying to build that case.

Benjamin: No.

Dylan: I was just-

Benjamin: No.

Dylan: ...trying to point out that we all are at the whim of our weird, weird brains. You know? And perception and how we perceive something to be. And I think sometimes our perceptions, specifically out vocalized perceptions, can have consequences when they're expressed to the person who we are perceiving. Does that make sense?

Benjamin: Yep.

Dylan: Emma, does that make sense?

Emma: Yeah.

Dylan: Okay, great. I didn't want to just be a mad person, just rambling over here.

Benjamin: That was pretty good. I've got to give it to you, that was pretty good.

Dylan: Well Benjamin, I'll take it. So guys we're coming to the close of the call, I just want to check in. Benjamin, how are you feeling about the call?

Benjamin: It was great. I really appreciate the opportunity. It's been a real pleasure.

Dylan: Oh, well, amazing. I'm so glad you took part in this. Emma, how are you feeling about the call?

Emma: I guess I'm feeling a little... I started out feeling really excited and feeling like, oh great. I can explain what happened to this guy, and then he'll understand. And I thought it was going to be pretty one to one. I'm realizing, I mean maybe even since the last time we checked in, your feelings have changed Benjamin. But last time we checked in I felt like you still didn't really feel like you can believe me. And so I guess I feel a little like my wings have been clipped, and I'm a little sad and crushed.

Benjamin: It's not that I don't believe you in this. Its... it's not that I don't believe you. It's just so hard to prove just definitively, and that's sort of what I need before I ruin a person's reputation. Because that's how I'd want to be treated, you know?

Dylan: So its interesting because a lot of, and again Benjamin jump in if I misspeak, but it seems like a lot of what you're saying is hinging on the fact that you do not want to unfairly vilify and villainize someone who is wrongly accused of something. That's fair to say, right?

Benjamin: That's very fair to say. And not only that, I hope that you guys don't either, you know?

Dylan: No, I-

Benjamin: I hope that before you want to send somebody off to prison or ruin their life, it has to be beyond a shadow of a doubt. Not just a person saying words, you know?

Dylan: But that's exactly where we're diverging here because I don't think in this conversation we actually are asking for this person to be villainized. We're just asking for you to believe a very traumatic account from someone who's on the phone with you. Right? This is actually not about the person who committed this crime, right? This is actually-

Benjamin: But it is about the crime though. The crime is why I would believe or not believe Emma, you know?

Dylan: But we're not jurors. The three of us are not jurors in a court of law deciding the fate of this person. We are really just... and I'm putting us all on the same side here because we're all humans, you know what I mean? And we each see ourselves as good humans trying to do the best that we can, right? Is that fair to say that we're all trying to do the best we can guys?

Emma: Yeah, Dylan.

Benjamin: Try.

Dylan: Try. No, but I'm just trying to say I'm including us all here. We're all humans trying to do the best we can. But what I think is important is that that other person, who committed this crime, who has been brought up on this call, we're not deciding his fate. And we're not sealing his fate. We're simply just talking about the account of a person who has to live with the consequences of what that person did and the importance of them kind of being believed. Right?

Benjamin: Right. Yeah. I'm just not to the point where I can 100 percent say he did it, you know? So I think that is really where we're diverging. I'm not saying that he didn't do it also.

Emma: Can I-

Benjamin: I'm just not where, yeah. Go ahead.

Emma: Yeah, thanks Ben. I think one thing that would be good to clarify is that you were like, "Look, I don't even want to ruin someone's life and falsely accuse them of rape." Right? That's something you don't want to do?

Benjamin: Right.

Emma: And I think that that's something that Dylan doesn't want to do.

Dylan: No.

Emma: Dylan is in no way, right?

Dylan: I would very much like to never do that.

Emma: Right.

Dylan: Yeah.

Emma: And then that is also something that I never want to do. I would feel sick if I falsely accused someone of rape. I think that would be a step backwards for the feminist movement. So you don't want to falsely accuse anyone of rape. Dylan doesn't want to falsely accuse anyone of rape.

Dylan: No.

Emma: And I don't want to falsely accuse anyone of rape. Given that, I accused someone of rape. So I think a big part of it is that you would have to trust me to be the kind of person who would never want to falsely accuse someone of rape. And the only reason I would ever accuse someone of rape is if they did it. Does that kind of logically make sense?

Benjamin: It makes sense logically, but I just can't. I can't do that. I don't do that with anybody. You sound like a very nice person. I'm not calling that into question, but I don't... that isn't enough for me to believe somebody is a rapist. I need proof. I need beyond a shadow of a doubt. That's what I need. Forensic, video. Its just what I need.

Emma: I just want to say that forensic evidence is scientifically proven to be fallible.

Benjamin: It's solved a lot of cases.

Emma: Its does.

Benjamin: It's solved a lot of cases of rape.

Emma: And it's incredibly important, and I say this not to make things more confusing but to hopefully actually make them clearer. Let's say two women took a rape test. One was raped by this one guy, and one woman was consensually having sex with the same guy. The rape test would show up positive for both of them. So even a rape test, actually if you think about it, can't really prove anything. It proves maybe even the identity of the guy, but it can't prove what the word in the room, yes or no. It can't prove who said what. So when a case is sometimes 100 percent impossible to prove 100 percent, what do we do? And I think that a lot of the time you kind of have to... I think follow your soul in a weird way. It's so much. You go through so much to come out of being sexually assaulted. You're not going to do that shit for fun. If you want to ruin a guy's life, there are so many better ways of doing it that don't open yourself up to all the shit that comes your way if you come out about sexual assault.

Benjamin: Right.

Emma: So if a person I know... if I see a person who comes out about sexual assault and opens themselves up and makes themselves that vulnerable, I'm like they probably did it for a good reason.

Dylan: And we're talking and thank you for that, Emma. But we're talking in the hypothetical about ruining someone's life. It does beg the question, Emma, by coming forward, was your goal to ruin his life?

Emma: Oh my Gosh. I didn't even say his name. He was the one who actually released his own name, and I was like, "Why did you of that?" I didn't say that to him because I wasn't in contact with him but I was like, "Why did he do that?" No one knew his name until he put it out there. So that was a really weird move, I thought. Because I was making Mattress Performance thinking no one even knew who he was.

Dylan: So you were not sharing his name?

Emma: No.

Benjamin: I guess one of those thing that I've always thought was your intention, but it's like it's being alleged of something like that, it gets around.

Dylan: Yeah. Well, it actually feels like we're at a frustrating impasse here. And-

Benjamin: I'm not frustrated by it. I actually think it's like super good because I think this is how... I think you're right. This is how most people break this thing down, right?

Dylan: I think a lot of people will listen to this conversation and recognize and use this conversation as a way to recognize how hard having this conversation can be.

Benjamin: But these things are... there's processes in place that, you know? I think what I'm saying really, I think maximizes the chance of the rapist getting caught, you know? That's what I want, for rapists to get caught and go to jail and have the key thrown away,

Dylan: But you're also-

Benjamin: As soon as it happens, go to the police and collect all the forensics right away because stuff is left. Evidence that can't be disputed is left.

Dylan: But then-

Benjamin: That's how you build a strong case.

Dylan: But Benjamin, there are so many reasons why people don't go right away. I mean, you're on the phone with someone right now who themselves was made fun of by the police. So we are talking about a unjust, imperfect system.

Benjamin: I'm not saying it didn't happen. I'm just saying I've never heard of someone calling the police saying, "I've just been raped. Please send somebody. I need help." And then them laughing. Is that what happened?

Emma: I mean-

Benjamin: It's unimaginable to me that that would happen. I can't imagine it.

Emma: I, literally, one of my close friends was raped while she was blackout. She got really drink at a party, woke up at the bottom of a stairwell naked, and the guy was like nearby. And she was like, "Oh my God." You know? And as soon as she woke up, she went to the police and they said, "Why didn't you call us last night?" And she was like, "Because I was being raped last night."

Dylan: So-

Benjamin: Yeah, that's not good. That's wrong. That's awful.

Dylan: But what I'm saying is like, it’s so much more than wrong Benjamin. I think, and I'm speaking for myself, but it’s so much more than wrong because in a perfect world, Benjamin, I would sign on to everything you're saying. Meaning, in just systems where you can easily prove beyond a shadow of the doubt when, you know... the body of people who are meant to protect us have no biases. No biases and no judgment. They are just literally the most bipartisan nonpolitical people. But the people who rape survivors have to deal with, the first person is likely a member of the law enforcement. And while there are, I just want to say this. While I'm sure there are many members of law enforcement. Many members of the police force who are very good people, who take their job very seriously and who painstakingly work to bring justice to the world in the truest sense to that word. I also think that inevitably, because the police force is comprised of humans, you're not going to get that, right? Humans are all flawed.

Benjamin: Maybe I've idealized these people. I can't discount that. I just assume that when somebody like gets beat up or like was just raped and has the samples all over their body, they would be believed. Why wouldn't you believe it?

Dylan: But Benjamin, I think there's also a great sense of shame that comes from being raped. And that shame can prohibit you from going to the police, especially if you've heard other stories of the police not believing you. So if you're already feeling shame about this thing that so many people feel shame for, that's a separate topic entirely of why humans feel shame from being sexually assaulted. Emma, you said this yourself. You wanted to convince yourself that it hadn't happened, right?

Emma: Yeah, yeah.

Dylan: So if you are trying to convince yourself that your rape hasn't happened, you are sure as hell not going to be like, you know who I'm going to now convince is law enforcement. What I'm trying to say, Benjamin, is there are so many complications that take this idealized situation that you're painting of like, "Yeah, you should go right to the cops when it happens." But there are so many other factors that, with all do respect Benjamin, I don't know that you are considering. Because you fortunately have, and I truly mean fortunately, like I'm so glad that you have never had to be in this position, but I don't think you have experienced this first hand.

Benjamin: Yeah, I haven't. That's true. I just don't understand... it's not that I don't understand. What is the alternative to all this? So everybody's... what happens to the accused people if everybody who says they're raped and can't give extremely strong evidence for the rape, what happens to those accused people?

Emma: Well, I'll tell you-

Benjamin: And how that doesn't just turn into a witch hunt?

Emma: Yeah, so normally it's nothing. And I guess the only thing that I'm asking is not that you then go and leave this phone call and be like, "Now I'm on a crusade against this dude that I've never met." But for me, I mean, I think the bare minimum I could ask for is that you're reaction is not to message the potential survivor with something that's angry.

Benjamin: Yeah, but I was just questioning by saying you were telling a lie.

Emma: Yeah, exactly.

Benjamin: I could see that.

Emma: But, I mean, the least I can ask for is no more hatred.

Benjamin: It wasn't hatred. It was disbelief. There's a difference.

Dylan: But I think, by calling Emma a liar, it is not hatred when you write it, right? There is no intention of hatred when you call them a liar. But I think there are certain feelings that are elicited when you have gone through this thing, and you receive a message like that.

Benjamin: Mm-hmm (affirmative). It was insensitive. It was insensitive. I'll give you what you want. It was insensitive. It had an insensitive undertone.

Dylan: But, I'm not looking for anything. You just said, "I'll give you what you want." I'm really not looking for anything from you. I'm just trying to explain the discrepancy of why the word hateful comes in because a message that you sent that is not hateful can sometimes be read as hateful on the other side.

Benjamin: Yeah. I see that. I should have expressed myself better. I didn't express myself well. I didn't express it well. I should have said it better.

Emma: Did you, when you sent that message, have any idea that I might be receiving hundreds just like it?

Benjamin: No. That's true. I did not put myself in your shoes and say, this is probably... this could just be more BS, like somebody else has already said this. It doesn't need to be said. Yeah, I didn't think about that.

Emma: Yeah. So when I say the word hatred, and again and I even said this. I really want you to believe me when I say this, that I don't think that you wrote the meanest thing. The feeling of hatred comes from just receiving so many messages just like yours and even worst. And so I'm like, "Why would someone add to the pile?" At that point it's the difference between standing under stream that's whatever, that's getting you wet but it's fine. Versus standing under a waterfall that's kind of torturous, right? So the impulse of adding to the kind of multitude of messages I was receiving is where I feel like, oh my God, I feel hated. Does that make sense?

Benjamin: That makes sense, yeah. That makes sense. That makes sense.

Emma: Okay. Well, I think we've-

Benjamin: I'm sorry for ever sending the message, and I'm sorry I hurt your feelings. I am sorry about that.

Emma: Well thank you for that. I feel like we've taken this as far as it can go.

Dylan: Are there any final things you want to say to each other? Parting words.

Benjamin: Well sure. For both of you, I appreciate this opportunity a lot. This is... I would have never imagined that sending that message would allow me to actually speak to the person. And, I know it may be hard to believe me, Emma and the viewers or whatever, but I really wish this person Emma all the best in life, only the good things for you. May you have a long life and a great life. And you as well, Dylan. And again, I appreciate the opportunity.

Dylan: Thanks, you too, Benjamin.

Emma: Thank you, Benjamin.

Dylan: Emma, any final words?

Emma: Yeah, this has been, you know... it's definitely really re-traumatizing to have to talk about all this stuff because this is the kind of stuff I had to tell the school hearing committee. This is the kind of stuff I had to tell the police officers. This is the kind of stuff I had to tell so many people who wouldn't believe me, and it's kind of just... it breaks my heart to do it again and to feel like the person on the other side can't believe me because I can't provide them with this science that they needed. So, yeah, I'm definitely going away from this conversation feeling like a little... like I'll never have the kind of resolution I've wanted. And you know it's always sad because it's like I never wanted to be raped in the first place. I never wanted to be here at all. So, yeah, I'm coming away from this conversation a little heartbroken and I guess... I hope that this conversation ends up meaning something to someone someday.

Dylan: Yeah.

Emma: Yeah.

Benjamin: Absolutely.

Dylan: Well, that being said, thank you both for being willing to do this. And I guess the way I'll leave it is, we'll all see each other on the internet.

Emma: Yeah.

Benjamin: All right. You take care, you guys.

Dylan: Sounds good.

Emma: Bye.

Dylan: Bye, Benjamin.

Benjamin: All right, bye.

[Phone call ends with a hang up sound. The drumbeat from ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals kicks in.]

Dylan [VOICEOVER CLOSING CREDITS]: If you'd like to be a guest on this show and take your own online conversation and move it offline, please visit www.conversationswithpeoplewhohateme.com for more information.

Conversations with People Who Hate Me is a production of Night Vale Presents. Vincent Cacchione is the sound engineer and mixer. Christy Gressman is the executive producer. The theme song is These Dark Times by Caged Animals. The logo was designed by Rob Wilson. And this podcast was created, produced, and hosted by me, Dylan Marron.

Special thanks to Adam Cecil, Emily Moler, and our publicist, Megan Larson.

We'll be releasing episodes every other week. So I'll see you in two weeks with a brand new conversation.

Until then, remember, there's a human on the other side of the screen.

[Chorus of ‘These Darks Times’ by Caged Animals plays.]