EPISODE 16: BITCH TALK ABOUT PALESTINE
Dylan: Well, let's follow the comment you gave me and bitch, let's talk about Palestine.
Intesar: Let's, shall we.
Dylan: Let's do it.
Intesar: I have my rosé right here.
Dylan: Your rosé is all ready.
[Instrumental of ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals begins to play.]
Dylan [VOICEOVER INTRODUCTION]: Hey, I'm Dylan Marron and this is conversations with people who hate me. It's the show where I take negative online comments and turn them into positive offline conversations.
Now, sometimes I speak one-on-one to people who have written negative things to me on the internet and other times I moderate conversations between others.
Today, I'm going to call up a guy named Intesar Toufic. Now, that's not his real name and you'll see why in a moment. But back in January when a certain high profile YouTuber gained notoriety for uploading a disrespectful video, I weighed in on the controversy on social media and in a comment beneath my post, Intesar wrote, bitch talk about Palestine. I'm going to call him up right now with the hopes of doing just that.
[Phone rings. Music fades. Guest picks up.]
Intesar: Hello?
Dylan: Hey, how are ya?
Intesar: Good, you?
Dylan: Can you hear me?
Intesar: Yes, I can hear you. Hi.
Dylan: How are you?
Intesar: I'm okay. I'm a bit stressed but hopefully things will get better.
Dylan: Yeah. Stressed in the big picture sense of the world or the small picture? Is something happening in your daily life stress?
Intesar: All of them, all of those things. When you study sociology and international relations, you see how they're both really intertwined and big picture stress can trickle down to everyday stress and everyday stress can be just seen as a reflection of big picture stress.
Dylan: Yeah and then they just reverberate off of each other.
Intesar: Exactly, yes. But I would like if my pseudonym is used instead of my first name.
Dylan: Do you want to do, right?
Intesar: Can we do Intesar, is that fine?
Dylan: Oh yeah. Then I can bleep your ... Because we're getting on the phone with each other and I said hi. I can bleep that if you'd like.
Intesar: That'd be great if you could do that. Because I've noticed a lot of people and I want to really keep it incognito.
Dylan: Okay, yeah. Well, I guess that's a good place to start. Why do you want to keep it incognito?
Intesar: Well, following the gay rights movement in the Arab world, I was very active and vocal and I was interviewed on camera about my life as a gay person who was Arab and I told the camera, okay, please blur my face and change my voice. My television segment aired and they did not change my voice. They just blurred my face and I got in a lot of trouble. My great aunt said that I should be killed.
Dylan: What?
Intesar: Yeah, yeah, it was not good. It was not good. But she's just the most conservative one in the family. She didn't really have any weight.
Dylan: Yeah, but I mean, that's a pretty extreme thing to say.
Intesar: It is extreme thing. Yeah, it's a very extreme thing to say. She's an 80 something year old woman and whatever. She can have her opinion, but I think I'm excellent.
Dylan: Look at you. You were talking about the fact that on that TV interview you wanted your voice blurred. Are you okay with your voice being your voice on this podcast?
Intesar: I'm okay with it because few people have heard me speak in English.
Dylan: But meaning ... Just double confirming, I won't be distorting your voice and you're okay with that, right?
Intesar: No, no, no. None of that robotic stuff.
Dylan: Yeah, okay. Okay, great. Your voice will be your voice, which is lovely. And just correct me on the pronunciation, Intesar, right?
Intesar: Yes, Intesar.
Dylan: Intesar. And Intesar, the reason we are on this call right now is that you ... Well, we intersected online because I had posted about someone who we'll just name a popular YouTuber and this was back in January and he had become pretty widely talked about for pulling a very uncool stunt and I weighed in on it on my Facebook page and then you commented, bitch, talk about Palestine.
Intesar: Please.
Dylan: So, Intesar, why did you write that?
Intesar: Well, I was actually annoyed that that dude bro was getting more attention than he deserved and I was especially pissed when I saw your post about him. I was like, you too Dylan? Really, you too.
Dylan: Why were you pissed?
Intesar: Because I think there's a ton of other things, Americans especially, can pay attention to and influence. This guy, absolutely, does not care what you think about to him, but if you put your time and attention into something that you can change, it's a more productive use of your anger. Like the Palestinian Israeli conflict. It may be outside of America but I think Arab lives are just as important as American lives, especially in a world where you all have more power over my life than you think you do and certainly then, vice versa. I have no influence, whatsoever, over your lives, but your votes can literally change my life.
Dylan: How so?
Intesar: Well, first of all, if you vote in a particularly conservative way or if you vote for somebody who is pro war abroad, this person will wage war abroad. Probably in my part of the world because it's a popular destination. America represents liberalism in the Arab mind. Liberalism is destructive. Some of us say that, okay, I reject all of this and we'll do the opposite of it just to spite America.
Dylan: Is this a trend you feel of American digital people not giving enough weight to issues abroad?
Intesar: Some of them do. I think, in general, it's not an American problem. I think the nature of attractive media is that it has to be ... There has to be proximity for media to be prosperous. You know what I mean? I'm not going to report about a dolphin crisis in Antarctica to somebody in the Sahara. It's not exactly appealing, but in this day and age where we are so connected, when globalization has really brought us closer together and where America has Naval Military Bases around the Middle East and helps some regimes and does not help the other. I think it's very pertinent that American audiences really pay attention to what their taxes are going to. And I wanted to point out Palestine, particularly, because I think it's such a tragedy and it symbolizes very well the consequences of insufficient attention to a cause.
Dylan: Yeah, I mean, I understand why you wrote it, I think. I think there's also ... And this is, I just want to be super clear, this is not me pushing back on you, but I also think we can't always all talk about all things. And I've adopted this new mantra that I try to follow of, I don't want to weigh in on topics that I'm not an expert in. You know what I mean?
Intesar: Exactly, I understand you completely. There's no way you can cover every single issue in the world, but there are issues that I think are more consequential than others and there are issues that are more consequential to particular people than other issues. When you talk about the context of gay people, are we talking about the context of social justice? I think Palestinian conflict is especially pertinent and not receive enough attention for many, many reasons. But, obviously, thanks to you, among other people, the trend is changing and hopefully we'll see some improvement.
Dylan: Well, like I said, I do think it's important for people to be talking about issues abroad when it's much more rewarded and much more easy to talk about nearby issues that we know about or stories in pop culture that everyone is talking about, which totally is a trap that I fell into, you know? But at the same time, I don't want to, necessarily, be jumping on topics and reading one headline and then a few paragraphs and then being like, great, I'm going to write this whole post about it and I'm going to totally show people how much I know. Do you know what I mean? I just think while people should venture out of their news comfort zones, that there should also be an important admission of not necessarily getting on your microphone when you don't know much about a topic. Do you know what I mean?
Intesar: I see exactly what you mean and I thank you for being so cautious and so professional about things because most people aren't. Most people are just very opinionated and they just say the first thing that pops into their mind. Yeah, I completely understand that. But it's just-
Dylan: But it seems like you pay the price when people don't speak about the issues that are affecting you, right?
Intesar: Exactly, exactly. And it's not just me who pays the price. There's a lot of people who do that. We're in 22 countries. The Arab world is a big, big place, you know? And I find it urgent to talk about these things because they influence the society's perception of sexual minorities because America's actions can, like I explained, influence liberalism in the Arab world and this can influence the lives of sexual minorities in the Arab world. By talking about this one issue, the effect is a lot bigger than just talking about some idiot, some buffoon on YouTube.
Dylan: Right, right. Well, let's, in fact, follow the comment you gave me and bitch, let's talk about Palestine.
Intesar: Let's, shall we?
Dylan: Let's do it.
Intesar: I have my rosé right here.
Dylan: Your rosé is all ready?
[BREAK]
Dylan: Intesar, you have a firsthand view of what's going on. As someone who is physically close to what is happening and we won't give any more details, but what are the things that you can report firsthand? What are the things you want us to know?
Intesar: Well, first of all, I want you to know that I love Americans and I love America. This is not a lecture session. This is just a hopeful nudge. What I want you to know is the land that's contested between Israel and Palestine is a very important land. But if you go to Israel right now and you look at how their children are being taught, the map that they are taught in schools includes land that is not officially part of that state yet. They are telling them from a very early age that this is where we are going to be, whatever happens. This is just the way things are. Granted, same thing can happen in Palestinian schools. There's a lack of compromise, but the thing is, there should not be that much compromise demanded from the Palestinians because they already lost so much. If you look at a map from how Palestine used to be in the 30s and 40s and how it is now, it has been effectively watered down to just two territories, where Israel has a presence where the Israeli currency is used, the people are taxed and they cannot even vote in Israeli elections. What Israel does is, it allows settlers to just take Palestinians homes and these settlers are backed by an Israeli police force. You're taken from your house. This is your house, you have a deed to the house, you have the keys to the house, but this person thinks that they are more worthy of living in this house than you are simply because of their religion and their cultural heritage and their lineage.
Dylan: If you could distill this conflict to the simplest terms, how would you describe it?
Intesar: Okay. After the Holocaust, Jewish people really suffered a lot. And this is not a point for debate. But what's going on now is that there's just a cycle of violence because under international law, Israel is an occupying settler state. This is under international law. This is not an opinion, it's a fact. And the guys there right now, you can only get electricity for a certain number of hours a day. To make it very clear, you cannot really do a lot of shopping because the food will rot because the Israelis are afraid that if the Palestinians have a lot of resources, they will use those resources to attack. They strain the resources, they control how many calories enter the area. It's that control.
Dylan: Would it be fair to say that it is, ultimately, a wrestling for land?
Intesar: Yes, it is a wrestling for land that is very, very messy and involves a lot more than just two people. It involves a lot of people. It involves Russia, it involves America, it involves Europe, it involves the Arabs. But America plays the most important role in this wrestling match.
Dylan: I mean, I also think that this illuminates why you were particularly upset that I was posting about a famous YouTuber who messed up because you're saying that America plays the biggest role in this and, I, by no means, represent America. I'm definitely-
Intesar: not all of America-
Dylan: No, no, no. But I get it. I understand your frustration. Here's another question for you. In talking about this, do you ever get accused of being antisemitic?
Intesar: Oh goodness. Okay, I'm going to continue to say Palestinians are humans. Israelis are humans. Children are children. I am a fabulous gay man. I'm going to say all things are factual at all times?
Dylan: Well, it is pride month. How are you celebrating pride?
Intesar: Existing. I don't exactly ... I haven't really thought about that. It's not something I grew up thinking about. It's just, I'm living and I'm taking care of myself. And I'm talking to my gay friends and we comfort each other and we bitch around and I'm just existing and I think that's the laziest way to be proud, is just to exist.
Dylan: No, I don't think it's lazy at all. I think, I really believe that pride month, you can celebrate ... I think pride month can be celebrated however you want and, I think, just existing is perfect.
Intesar: Yeah. I'm existing happily and healthily and that's the goal of pride month
Dylan: And safely, too. And only answer this question if you feel comfortable, but how out are you?
Intesar: Well, most people know about me, but I don't really introduce myself, "Oh, hello. I'm gay." No, I don't do that. I do that after sense the person's level of liberalism, as I'm sure some gay people can relate to this. I'm out to most of my family, it's just, certain members, I don't think they can take it and I want my inheritance. My inheritance, to me, is a lot more important than a statement. After I collect my inheritance, the gay pride parade will be in my house. But until then, I'm going to play it safe. If you go to my Facebook page, you'll see me with a fan over my face because I'm outspoken. I am really gay. I love being gay, but I really would like my inheritance to remain intact. You're going to see me smile in a really bitchy, sassy way but I can't show my full face just yet, hun.
Dylan: You're just teasing the audience.
Intesar: Violet Chachki better watch her back. She better look out for me.
Dylan: Yes ma'am. Okay, I see you. That's amazing.
Intesar: I went to America for a little while to visit some people and when I was there I wore high heels every day and I just strut around high heels in Philadelphia.
Dylan: Yes ma'am.
Intesar: I was like, yes, I am here. I am doing this right now.
Dylan: Wow, wow, wow, wow. That's amazing. Do you think, in your lifetime, you will be able to wear six inch heels at home?
Intesar: Yes, I certainly think that's possible. But my age at which I will do that depends on the actions of the West, particularly the United States. I hope that you all will take us into consideration because I don't want to be rocking six inch heels when I'm 84. I'd rather walk in them when I'm 45.
Dylan: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Intesar: If that's not too much trouble. Thank you.
Dylan: Do it so Intesar can wear six inch heels at home. No, I totally get that. Well, I usually ask this question at the beginning, but we got on such a roll that I didn't. But separate from all of this stuff, separate from where you're from, separate from the conflict, separate from everything. Tell me about you.
Intesar: I am an aspiring scandalous author. I'm finishing a book and I'm looking for an agent. I've been published in The Gay Lesbian Review and in other publications and yes, look out for me because this is not the last time you shall hear Intesar.
Dylan: Yes, with the tongue pop.
Intesar: Yes, ma'am.
Dylan: Yes, with the tongue pop. Well, I think I know the answer to this question, but I ask it in almost every episode. Do you regret writing your comment, bitch, talk about Palestine?
Intesar: No because we have this now.
Dylan: I know, I know, I know. Look at us.
Dylan: Well, Intesar, it was great talking to you and I'll see you on the internet.
Intesar: Yes, same.
Dylan: Same, I'll see you soon.
Intesar: Bye.
Dylan: Bye.
[Phone call ends with a hang up sound. The drumbeat from ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals kicks in.]
Dylan [VOICEOVER CLOSING CREDITS]: If you'd like to be a guest on this show and take your own online conversation and move it offline, please visit www.conversationswithpeoplewhohateme.com for more information.
Conversations With People Who Hate Me is a production of Night Vale Presents. Vincent Cacchione is the sound engineer and mixer. Christy Gressman is the executive producer. The theme song is These Dark Times by Caged Animals. The logo was designed by Rob Wilson, and this podcast was created, produced, and hosted by me, Dylan Marron.
Special thanks to Adam Cecil, Emily Moler, and our publicist Megan Larson.
We'll be releasing episodes every other week, so I'll see you in two weeks with a brand new conversation. Until then, remember there is a human on the other side of the screen.
[Chorus of ‘These Darks Times’ by Caged Animals plays.]