EPISODE 14: DIGITAL SELF-HARM
Dylan: You have been called "dyke," "ugly dyke," "bug-eyed freak." Who was it who wrote that to you?
Alyson: Unfortunately it was me who wrote it to myself.
Dylan: Whoa.
Alyson: Yeah.
[Instrumental of ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals begins to play.]
Dylan [VOICEOVER INTRODUCTION]: Hey, I'm Dylan Marron and this is "Conversations With People Who Hate Me," the show where I take negative online comments and turn them into positive offline conversations. Sometimes I speak one on one with folks who have said negative things to me on the internet, and other times I moderate between people who have gotten into their own digital negativity with each other.
Today, I'm moderating. Well, sort of. I'm talking to a woman named Alyson who has been called a "dyke" and a "bug-eyed freak" by an anonymous poster on her social media accounts.
Now, a quick heads up before we begin. This episode deals with a form of self harm. If that's not a great topic for you to be hearing about, maybe this isn't the conversation for you. And hey, that is totally okay. Go do something fun. Treat yourself. Also, if you or someone you know is having suicidal thoughts, there is no shame, but there is help. In the United States, you can call the National Suicide Prevention Hotline 24 hours a day, seven days a week at 1-800-273-8255. For international listeners, go to IASP.info to help find a crisis center near you.
All right, with that being said, let's do this.
[Phone rings. Music fades. Guest picks up.]
Alyson: Hello.
Dylan: Hey, is this Alyson?
Alyson: This is.
Dylan: Hi, Alyson. This is Dylan Marron. How are you?
Alyson: I'm pretty good. I worked my first Sunday shift.
Dylan: Oh my God. Where do you work?
Alyson: I work for a crisis hotline.
Dylan: Oh, wow. That is very appropriate. Seriously. What kind of crises are you dealing with?
Alyson: Really anything. We deal with really simple crisis from like grief to break up and things like that. We do deal with a lot of teenagers, depression, anxiety, different mental health disorders, and suicide very often.
Dylan: Wow. Well, let's start here. In only as many details as you're comfortable sharing, tell me about you.
Alyson: Let's see. I'm very much a rural girl with a leftist heart.
Dylan: Rural girl with a leftist heart. I feel like "rural girl" is a really hard thing to say now that I just said it out loud, so thank you for that tongue twister.
Alyson: It is a tongue twister.
Dylan: Yeah. I couldn't even say it. Rural girl with a liberal heart. Great.
Alyson: Yes. Cat lover. Live in the middle of nowhere.
Dylan: Love it. Alyson, what we're here to discuss is that you have received some online harassment. You have been called "dyke", "ugly dyke", "bug-eyed freak", among other things. Alyson, who was it who wrote that to you?
Alyson: Unfortunately, it was me who wrote it to myself. Yeah.
Dylan: Whoa.
Alyson: Yeah.
Dylan: Okay. So there's a lot of questions to ask here. How bad did it get?
Alyson: Well, it started off maybe once a week sending a message or two and then it got to the point where I was sending myself messages maybe three different days out of the week. They got very detailed and aggressive. I told myself a couple times actually to kill myself and I think that kind of eventually scared me.
Dylan: But that's so interesting. Did you feel that you almost couldn't control these things you were writing or was it just that thing and where you're just like, "Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. There's the edge. I've reached it. I don't want to go any further."
Alyson: I think a little bit of both. I think I thought I was in control of it until I would kind of read things later on that I had answered and posted. It was really upsetting to me. Like, wow, I'm being so mean to myself. Yet I'd go to do it again and realized maybe this isn't something that I should do anymore. Maybe I've taken this too far.
Dylan: Is it hard to talk about this now?
Alyson: I processed it a lot. I think that there's still some feelings of maybe guilt or shame, but not like towards others, towards myself, really. Like, kind of wish I could go back in time and take care of little me a little bit.
Dylan: I apologize for how simple this question is, but what inspired you to write that to yourself?
Alyson: I think there's a lot of reasons and some I still don't understand. I think that it was kind of this mentality of I'll beat them to the punch. Maybe I'll be accepted if I join in on it, I guess.
Dylan: What ages were you when you were writing this stuff to yourself?
Alyson: I want to say it started around age 12 and probably was completely done when I was 14.
Dylan: Tell me about you in this time
Alyson: I was very sheltered. I had been homeschooled on and off, didn't really know how to interact with my peers, very much into books. Just discovering the internet and loving it because of all the connections I could make. I would kind of like sneak onto a tab and close it because I knew how to use computers pretty well right away. I was looking at YouTube comments and it was just sort of entertaining. I didn't really realize these are real people talking to each other. Convinced my parents to let me get like a Myspace so I could keep in touch with friends.
Dylan: Oh, yeah.
Alyson: The popularity game is terrible.
Dylan: You're talking about the popularity game on social media platforms?
Alyson: Yes.
Dylan: Yeah. How did that manifest for you?
Alyson: I just wanted to be liked. I wasn't very liked in school and I think the internet to me was like this different world where maybe I could kind of be a slightly different person or seem cooler, because you can shape your social media presence.
Dylan: Oh, completely. Yeah. I mean, I even know that as a sometimes confident adult. I like myself way more than I did in high school, but I still see myself shaping who I want to be on social media. You know what I mean?
Alyson: Right.
Dylan: Yeah.
Alyson: I don't think you can help it, honestly.
Dylan: Yeah. But okay, so how are you writing these hateful comments to yourself? Like "dyke" and "ugly dyke", and as you told me earlier, "bug-eyed freak".
Alyson: Yeah. There was this awful website. It was very, very easy to send yourself hate because you could get your own mailbox. Like, you could send yourself it in two seconds flat. You just had the mark it anonymous option.
Dylan: So, people can write an anonymous message and then it posts publicly or privately?
Alyson: Publicly. It's like a wall, like a Facebook wall.
Dylan: Oh my God. But it goes to your Facebook wall?
Alyson: Yes.
Dylan: Okay. Wow. You can anonymously write something that will then be public?
Alyson: Right. Yeah, I would get like a pile of things from other people. Just tons and tons of messages.
Dylan: What were those messages like? The messages from actual other people.
Alyson: They were actually really similar to the ones that I sent myself. Mostly just like calling me ugly, telling me at times that I looked anorexic. My family is very poor, so a lot of stuff had to do with like the clothes I wore. Really typical middle school insults, I guess.
Alyson: I would come home from school and immediately check it. If I didn't get anything, or I got hateful messages I didn't like or I didn't think reflected what people really thought of me or what I thought of myself, I would send myself something along with it.
Dylan: Now, what made you want to mimic the actual hate messages that you are getting or the classist bullying messages you were getting? What made you want to mimic that?
Alyson: I think it was some self-hatred. I think getting messages like that in person or online, you internalize it, and I think a part of me really did believe these things are true. I think it was a control factor. I felt better when I was the one saying mean things to myself instead of others. And maybe wanting to be accepted or have someone worry about me. Maybe someone could figure out it was me and reach out, you know?
Dylan: How would someone figure out that you were sending yourself anonymous messages if it's already an anonymous forum?
Alyson: I guess maybe the way it's typed out. You know, if it doesn't work like the normal messages I'm getting. If it sounds like me. I had some family on social media.
Dylan: That's so interesting. Did you not feel like you had resources to reach out to people with?
Alyson: Not really. I mean, I had a really small group of friends and in middle school your friend can be your enemy in the same breath. Yeah. My mom, she was such a sweet woman, but she was very close to me. Sometimes when you're so close to someone, you share everything, and suddenly you feel like you can't, you don't want to talk to them. Our guidance counselors-
Dylan: Especially in those... Sorry to interrupt. Just especially in those times when you're going through so many changes, you almost end up pushing away the people who are most loving to you in that weird way, you know?
Alyson: Yeah, absolutely. I was in so many arguments with my mother around that time and it was just turbulent. Yeah. At the time we only had a male guidance counselor and he really meant well, but he had no idea what he was doing.
Dylan: The best kind of guidance counselor.
Alyson: Yeah. The best.
Dylan: Meant well, no idea what they're doing. Wonderful. Great. Okay. This was your safety net at school.
Alyson: Yeah. That was about it. I mean, if you had an altercation argument at all, you are told, "Don't fight back, turn the other cheek, ignore it." Then if that doesn't happen, you're sent to the guidance counselor and he would basically tell you the same exact thing. So no, I didn't really have anyone to reach out to.
Dylan: And so in a sense, the reason you're writing these hateful things to yourself is a cry for help.
Alyson: Absolutely. Yeah.
Dylan: Did you get anyone who responded to that call?
Alyson: Yes, actually. Towards the end when I was starting to realize it was becoming a problem, I did have some family and friends who didn't directly call me out on it, but would comment like, "You don't deserve to have to be told those things. You deserve better than that." I made some friends that I did confide in that I was sending those messages to myself, at least some of them.
Dylan: What were those friends reactions when you told them?
Alyson: You know, I really thought that they would judge me a little bit or kind of think it was weird, but a lot of them actually admitted to doing the same thing.
Dylan: Really? I'm so fascinated by this because I didn't know this was a thing. Was it almost like you felt that the world was being cruel to you, and they were, right? True people from your world were coming into this anonymous inbox to actually make fun of you. Right? To actually tear you down. So you're in a sense taking control of the situation.
Alyson: Right. Kind of joining the party. I even tried to kind of one up them like, "Oh, okay. They're going to be this cruel, I'm going to be this cruel." You know?
Dylan: But really the only one paying the price was you, because you were the recipient of the messages?
Alyson: Right. Yeah.
Dylan: You thought your friends would judge you. They revealed, actually, that's not weird at all. Some of them have done it too, right?
Alyson: Yeah. I wound up getting counseling. My mother, I didn't really tell her specifically what was going on, but she realized the internet was becoming a major problem. She got me into counseling at an awesome local agency. When I told my counselor about it a couple of sessions in, she seemed surprised, but at the same time, absolutely not. We talked about how self-harm really evolves with technology.
Dylan: Yeah. That's interesting. Would you consider this a form of self harm?
Alyson: Absolutely.
Dylan: But this counselor helped you out?
Alyson: Definitely. Yeah. She validated a lot of my feelings, explained to me kind of the culture of being a teenager, and pretty much that it was, normal for me, as sad as it is, to really hate myself.
Dylan: Yeah. That was the turning point for you, right?
Alyson: Definitely.
Dylan: And just want to check in again. You're comfortable talking about this, right?
Alyson: Yes. Absolutely.
Dylan: Okay, great. Two of these messages you sent yourself, "dyke" and "ugly dyke". Was that almost like a form of coming out for you?
[BREAK]
Alyson: Yeah, ironically. Looking back, that was one of the biggest pieces of the puzzle for me to process on my own. I was struggling really hard to come out as bisexual. I think it goes back to the beating them to the punch thing. A lot of people were kind of figuring it out.
Dylan: So there were people whose gaydar was going off?
Alyson: Oh, yeah.
Dylan: Yeah. Yeah. Got it. Got it. You were like, "I'm going to say it before you can say it, but I'm not going to say it publicly."
Alyson: Right. Exactly.
Dylan: Or rather, I'm not going to say it as myself.
Alyson: Yes. It almost turned into sort of a really mean diary for a while.
Dylan: Yeah, a really mean diary role play essentially, where your diary is writing back to you. I mean, I don't mean to make light of what you're doing.
Alyson: No, I agree.
Dylan: What was the timeline between kind of realizing that you are bisexual and then starting to articulate it in this very nasty way against yourself?
Alyson: Strangely, it was very short. I think around 12 and a half, 13, I started to go, "Oh, I am different." Shortly thereafter, starting to send these mean messages as people began to speculate. Rumors started to fly, maybe because of the messages I sent myself and the ones that followed from other people.
Dylan: But you were the catalyst?
Alyson: Yes. Yes.
Dylan: So the rumors started because of the messages that you were sending anonymously to yourself?
Alyson: Right. In a strange way, I did the footwork.
Dylan: Yeah. No. While I just wish that your younger self had an easier time, I get what you were doing. You know what I mean?
Alyson: Yeah. It kind of softened the blow, made it less of a surprise. And because people just thought it came from this anonymous person or group of people, when I did come out around 14, there was some backlash. But I feel like it could have been a lot worse. I was able to be like, "Oh, yeah, well people have called me that before." As time moved on, I think it was easier for me with friends and family that I felt more vulnerable around because I was able to say, "Well, these people have been so mean to me, or homophobia is a real thing, and here's proof."
Dylan: Whoa. I mean, but see, this is where this is hard for me, because like homophobia is real, right? That is a true part of our world. And fellow queer people see signs much more than our straight and cis family members do.
Alyson: Right.
Dylan: Like, you're not making up this thing that isn't real, but you're almost giving a voice to the hate that you know is out there. You know what I mean?
Alyson: Yeah. It's such a complex thing. There's so many reasons and I'm sure other people have done this and had their own reasons, but it was almost to amplify the things that already existed and be able to just shove it in someone's face and prove it because it depended on the time or place, is someone going to see this real thing happen to me.
Dylan: Yeah. The coming out process was easier because of this?
Alyson: I think so. I think I honestly desensitized myself a little bit ahead of time.
Dylan: Because you were role playing the worst case scenario of what this could be.
Alyson: Exactly. Yeah.
Dylan: You know, you brought this up earlier, you said this thing that stuck with me. You said, "I wish I could go back to my younger self and be better." What would you say right now to your younger self?
Alyson: That's a tough one. I guess that I'd just tell her like the stereotypical stuff she wouldn't have listened to.
Dylan: Yeah. She would've been like, "Get out of here." Yeah.
Alyson: All right. Yeah. You know, that it's temporary, and that these people who are hurting you suck, and you're not even going to remember half their names in 10 years. Time moves a lot faster than you think and you're going to meet some really amazing lifelong friends who actually care about you and stick with you.
Dylan: Yeah. I always think about what I'd say to the younger version of me, but it's like, it is always that thing like, "Oh my God, this thing that you think is the most important thing in the whole world. You're not going to remember it in three years." You know?
Alyson: Uh-huh. I look back at boyfriends. I'm like, "What was his name?"
Dylan: Yeah, well you don't even remember their names. Yeah. You're like, "Oh my God, this person who has given me the most heartbreak in my whole life," and by whole life you mean the life you've lived up until that point. But it's like there is so much beauty and fun things beyond that point, you know?
Alyson: Yeah.
Dylan: And the most important thing is to kind of just survive to see it. But of course, I would be remiss to even suggest that it's easy to have that foresight. You know what I mean?
Alyson: Oh, yeah.
Dylan: As if it's easy to like look forward. But my question for you is for anyone listening right now who is younger or not younger, for people who are experiencing this at any age, since you went through this, what is advice you would give to them?
Alyson: People are judgmental but not everybody. And rejection is terrifying, but it is going to save you so much effort to just reach out, risking the rejection knowing that out of the 10 people you approach, five of them are probably going to understand at least enough to help you out.
Dylan: And specifically for kids who are bullying themselves through social media, what would you say to them if they're doing it right now?
Alyson: If it feels like a problem, it probably is a problem.
Dylan: Now I think the logical next question that I have for you is what are some resources that you would recommend for anybody going through this, anybody engaging in specifically cyber self-harm?
Alyson: If the internet, or apps, or phones are your way of self-injury, I would suggest using a positive spin on that. Contact your local crisis text line. They're awesome and most of them are 24/7 so it doesn't matter if you're up way past bedtime. They can talk to you.
Dylan: Yeah. Well, that's a great segue to ask what is... Is there like one crisis text line that people can use?
Alyson: Yes. The crisis text line in the US, the national one, you text the word "home" to 741741, and it's 24/7.
Dylan: That's the word "home," H-O-M-E, to 741741?
Alyson: Yes. That's correct.
Dylan: But I also have to say in a very interesting twist, you actually now work for this crisis text line.
Alyson: Yes. That does tie in to my experiences with this. There were some times before I went to my counseling appointment, that linkage wasn't made, and somehow I stumbled probably like on Tumblr or something I wasn't supposed to be on either.
Dylan: Great. But you found something healthy and good. Okay, great.
Alyson: Yes, and on the internet. A miracle.
Dylan: Oh, great. God bless.
Alyson: I found a crisis text line and I just texted them. I was just testing the waters to see if someone got back to me. I don't know why I viewed the worker as... I think there was the ability to stay anonymous. I think that helped me because it was like I wasn't a specific person with a problem, I was a person with a problem. Nonjudgmental, very supportive.
Dylan: What you mentioned earlier is that you did not come from very many financial means. In fact, I think the word you used was "poor," right?
Alyson: Yeah. Grew up very lower middle class, working class.
Dylan: So your family did not have the means to afford access to mental health care and yet there are still ways to get access to mental health care, even if you don't have the money to pay for it?
Alyson: Right. Yeah. These crisis lines, they're normally not licensed professionals or if they are, they can't act with their license through the job, but oftentimes they can get people hooked to nonprofits that are either going to be free or at least sliding scale, so much more accessible.
Dylan: It's so funny, when you first reached out to me, I had no idea that you worked for a crisis text line and it was so funny because all day today I was kind of like searching for the best resources that I would be including with this. It's just fortuitous that the person I'm talking to about this works for a crisis text line. Truly, and I hope this doesn't come off as empty, I mean this with every ounce of my heart, but thank you for the work you do. I just think that's like so many people use this as a resource.
Alyson: A lot of people, especially young people. Most of the people who text us are very young people.
Dylan: Yeah. Because it can be embarrassing to seek help, you know?
Alyson: Yes. Yeah.
Dylan: Yeah. I mean, it can be, it can feel embarrassing to seek help. It is not embarrassing to seek help.
Alyson: Right.
Dylan: You know, it's funny, at the end of this show I say, "Remember, there's a human on the other side of the screen," and I feel like that needs to kind of be adjusted for this episode because it's like, "Remember, there's a human on the other side of the screen even if that person is you."
Alyson: Yeah, definitely.
Dylan: Wow. Well, Alyson, really, truly thank you so much for sharing what you did with me.
Alyson: Of course.
Dylan: Thank you for providing resources for the people who are listening.
Alyson: Thank you.
Dylan: And any final things you want to say?
Alyson: Yeah. I think going back to how to help people who are doing this, I think it's also important to think of what if you're a parent of someone who is doing this, or if you're a parent of a child and you don't know if they're doing this or not. I feel like with my parents, the internet was a very new concept, so it was very intimidating, and they kind of just gave me free range. I want parents to know as long as you start with children young, using those parental controls, and being respectful, and having that mutual respect, it's going to help prevent a lot of problems to have that open communication instead of waiting until they're a moody teenager.
Dylan: Yeah. You mean putting parental controls on internet use?
Alyson: Yeah, and not even like apps or add-ons, but being that human element, asking them who they're talking to, asking them if they're comfortable online. You don't need to go into specifics if it's not going anywhere, but just regularly checking in on them, just like you would if they're going over to a friend's house, because they are.
Dylan: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. They're going to another person's digital doorstep.
Alyson: Yes.
Dylan: Yeah. And yet at the same time, I think, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I think it's also important to acknowledge that the internet is not just this bad place where bad things happen.
Alyson: Oh, absolutely. The internet has been an amazing platform for me. I've made a lot of friends online and found a lot of resources, free resources online that I would not have been able to access otherwise.
Dylan: Yeah. Yeah. But just like the world, the internet's complicated.
Alyson: Absolutely. Yeah.
Dylan: Yeah. Well Alyson, really, truly, thank you so much for talking to me today. I'll say it for the millionth time, but thank you for the work you do. Well, I guess I'll see you on the internet.
Alyson: Sounds good. Thanks, Dylan.
Dylan: I'll talk to you soon.
Alyson: Bye.
Dylan: Bye.
[Phone call ends with a hang up sound.]
Dylan [VOICEOVER CLOSING CREDITS]: If you or someone you know is having suicidal thoughts, there is no shame, but there is help. In the United States you can call the National Suicide Prevention Hotline 24 hours a day, seven days a week at (1-800) 273-8255. For international listeners, go to IASP.info to help find a crisis center near you. And like Alyson said, for those of you in the United States, you can text "home", H-O-M-E to 741741 for free 24/7 crisis support.
[Instrumental of “These Dark Times” by Caged Animals begins to play.]
"Conversations With People Who Hate Me" is a production of Night Vale Presents. Vincent Cacchione is the Sound Engineer and Mixer. Christy Gressman is the Executive Producer.
The theme song is "These Dark Times" by Caged Animals. The logo was designed by Rob Wilson. And this podcast was created, produced, and hosted by me, Dylan Marron. Special thanks to Adam Cecil, Emily Mueller, and our publicist, Megan Larsen. And today, an extra special thank you to Dr. Jill Harkavy-Friedman from the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention for her advice on this episode.
We release episodes every other week, so I'll see you in two weeks with a brand new conversation.
Until then, remember: there is a human on the other side of the screen.
[Chorus of ‘These Darks Times’ by Caged Animals plays.]