EPISODE 13: TALENTLESS HACK
Doug: I don't think most people hate you per se. And so, when I saw the terminology, "people who hate me," I just said, oh, this is tacky. This is corny.
Dylan: Tacky? [Laughs.] Tacky and corny.
[Instrumental of ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals begins to play.]
Dylan [VOICEOVER INTRODUCTION]: Hey, I'm Dylan Marron, and welcome back to "Conversations with People Who Hate Me," the show where I take negative online conversations and move them offline.
Today I'm calling Doug, a man who, in the comment section of a trailer for this podcast, called me "a talentless propaganda hack." Well, more specifically he wrote, "So you openly admit that you're a talentless propaganda hack. That's cool." So, let's give Doug a call.
[Phone rings. Music fades. Guest picks up.]
Doug: Hello.
Dylan: Hey, is this Doug?
Doug: This is.
Dylan: Hi.
Doug: Hi. How are you?
Dylan: I'm good. I'm good. So, before we begin, in only as many details as you're comfortable sharing, tell me about you.
Doug: Well, my name is Doug, obviously.
Dylan: Mhmm.
Doug: I am a server at a country club.
Dylan: Oh, nice.
Doug: Yes. I'm trying to think.
Dylan: Do you like the country club?
Doug: I do. I do like it.
Dylan: Yeah.
Doug: It's something, until I really figure out what I'm doing with my life, it's something that really holds me down.
Dylan: Yeah.
Doug: And I enjoy it.
Dylan: So, Doug, we are on this phone call because, a few months ago, underneath the trailer for this very podcast, you wrote, "So you sort of openly embrace the fact that you're a talentless propaganda hack. That's cool."
Doug: That sounds like me. Yeah.
Dylan: [Laughs] Okay, great. So, tell me why you wrote that.
Doug: Well, I've actually seen several of your videos pop up in my newsfeed from time to time.
Dylan: Mhmm.
Doug: And I just mostly diametrically have an opposite belief as you do. So, I just saw that advertisement and I just responded in such. Had no idea that it would actually catch your attention and that we'd be having this conversation right now. But here we are.
Dylan: So, you wrote it and you didn't think that I was going to read it?
Doug: No. I mean, I figured I'd probably get some like snarky teenager from like Berkeley who would like comment some crazy psychotic shit back to me. And then, I'd just laugh at it. But, instead, I'm here on the phone.
Dylan: You're here on the phone with me. So, and again, I ask this with love and I ask this with curiosity, but what made you feel that I was a talentless propaganda hack?
Doug: Well, I guess I figured a lot of your viewpoints are very much cookie cutter for what I typically see in many internet opinionated videos. And so, to me, most of what I've seen from you at least is very similar to what you'd find on you any sort of Buzzfeed video, any sort of Huffington Post, anything like that. Obviously, none of them have ever tried contacting me or reaching out to me.
Dylan: Well, actually in secret backdoor meetings, Buzzfeed and Huffington Post and I were in a deadly race to go find you.
Doug: Well, I'm really glad that I was finally discovered. So, I appreciate it.
Dylan: Yeah. And I won. Yeah. So, I'm the winner of that race. So, you thought that I was a talentless propaganda hack because you disagreed with my views. Right?
Doug: Well, I think it's more of that it seems to be, at least in so many videos I see, it's almost the exact same sort of view that's always presented out there.
Dylan: But it is interesting that you wrote this under the video that was advertising this new project where I'm actually talking to the people who wrote comments like these. Do you know what video you were commenting under? Or you kind of just saw me and you were like, all right, I'm going to comment here.
Doug: No, I did know the video. I actually did know the video. And I'd heard of the "People Who Hate Me" thing. I think also the title, I think, kind of also made me want to write that as well, simply because I don't think most people hate you per se. You don't seem like an easy person to hate. I think most people just kind of very strongly disagree with your viewpoints. And so, when I saw the terminology, "people who hate me," I just said, oh, this is tacky. This is corny.
Dylan: Tacky? [Laughs.] Tacky and corny.
Doug: This is tacky.
Dylan: You know how books have like pull quotes that they advertise or movies have like quotes from reviewers that they put on their poster?
Doug: Yeah.
Dylan: For the poster for this podcast I'll put "tacky and corny" by Doug.
Doug: I would be honored if you did that. I would be so honored.
Dylan: Okay. Tacky and corny. But this was the title. Did you listen to it and still think it was tacky and corny?
Doug: No, actually. Once I viewed the full dialogue, I actually did enjoy it more.
Dylan: So, why the dig at talent? Why talentless?
Doug: Talentless. Well, I guess I've always felt that a lot of people who are in the media, a lot of people who are in many positions of power, and obviously I'm not saying that you're like some high up media mogul or anything like that.
Dylan: I identify as famous, yeah.
Doug: But a lot of these people were kind of just put there. They're there because their parents were there. They're there because they had the money to have the influence. And there are people, don't get me wrong, who have worked their way up from the bottom to get to where they are in many positions of power. But a lot of these people start out... they didn't start at an entry level. They started out at like level nine.
Dylan: Mhmm.
Doug: And then, they climbed up to a level 11 and they're like, "Look at me, look what I've done." And it's like, not really. No. And a lot of these people that you see on many of these news sites, many of online videos, and stuff like that, they don't really seem to have a great grasp of the things that they're talking about. It seems to be this giant echo chamber of opinion. And it's just circulated and circulated. And this is what is propagated to be the news. This is what it's propagated to be reality when it's not. And, to me, when I say "talentless", it's just all these people seem to have very similar opinion. And there's no thought. There's no actual engagement, or debate, or conversation that's really going on. It just seems to be, this is the going opinion. Either you believe it or you're a reactionary. Either you believe it or you're a radical leftist. That's kind of what I mean by talentless. That it's just so simplistic, so almost like Neanderthal thinking that there's only the extreme left and the extreme right.
Dylan: Yeah. That's interesting.
Doug: That's my take on that.
Dylan: No, no, no. And again, I really appreciate that.
Doug: So, now I'm going to flip the tables and ask you a question.
Dylan: Yes.
Doug: What made you decide to want to do podcasts? What made you decide that you wanted to do--
Dylan: This podcast?
Doug: No. Not just this podcast in general. But like get into video making and stuff like that.
Dylan: Oh, got it.
Doug: What made you decide that was your calling? Yeah.
Dylan: So, that's a good question. And it will inevitably circle back to the whole talentless thing.
Doug: Yep. Yep.
Dylan: So, I was a huge theater kid. I was scouted in high school plays. And I would often kind of go up for auditions. And I would sometimes get pretty far in these auditions and the casting directors would sometimes hook me up with agents. And agents would say this thing that I kept hearing that I was talented, but unlikely to get work. And I didn't understand how those two things fit together. And I kind of came to understand that what that meant is that I don't fit a specific type, right? Like I'm a queer person of color, to use an identity factor, which I assume puts me in the social justice warrior camp. But being a queer person of color, there aren't many roles out there for you. Because there weren't roles out there waiting for me to fill them, I learned early on that I had to kind of carve my own path and make my own thing. And making videos was a way that I could crack in to the system. And a way that I could show undeniably that I could do it. Now, clearly you disagree, but I just mean for the many people who do like my videos or do align with my voice. It was a way of kind of skipping the gatekeepers of the industry who were telling me that there were no roles for me, there was no work for me. So, rather than waiting for them to say yes to me by making videos, I was able to say yes to myself. And the videos that you started seeing came from my first really long term professional job in this industry, which was working at Seriously TV. And at Seriously TV, I was initially hired just as a writer. I don't think they really wanted me on camera. And then, I really threw myself into the job. I knew exactly what I wanted to make. I wanted to make interview shows. I wanted to write satire that took these traditional forms like YouTube formats, like unboxing, and I wanted to kind of use that format to talk about pressing social justice issues that were important to me. So, trying to break into this industry as a teenager showed me that I had to make it on my own all along. So, I think it's a really interesting question you ask because that is inherently tied to why I am making videos professing socially left ideologies.
Doug: Do you believe that you are a divisive person? Like that your viewpoints are divisive?
[BREAK]
Dylan: Yeah. Until I started making videos, I never would have said that my viewpoints are divisive ever.
Doug: I think that comes down to like the sort of like echo chamber idea.
Dylan: Mhmm.
Doug: That, if you live in rural Oklahoma, and you only interact with people who are in rural Oklahoma and all of your friends are living in rural Oklahoma, you think that everyone is a gun toting, God fearing, evangelical conservative.
Dylan: Mm-hmm.
Doug: Much like, if you live in Brooklyn and all of your friends live in Brooklyn. And you probably think that the world is much more of an intersectionally feminist sort of playground.
Dylan: Yeah. Well, I don't think the world is like that. I would love for the world to be an intersectional playground, but I fully agree with what you're saying.
Doug: But my whole point is like it seems like people who work at Seriously TV, people who work at Huffington Post, people who work at Everyday Feminism, the Daily Beast, they all have the exact same viewpoint, even though they work in completely different situations. And the same with Breitbart, and RedState, and Townhall. They all have the exact same viewpoints.
Dylan: I just want to say like comparing me and the work I was doing to Breitbart is a bit of a false equivalent, only because, while you may equally not like the two them, Breitbart is professing what I believe to be incredibly dangerous ideologies. But do you maybe think that I was professing dangerous ideologies?
Doug: I think that you were professing opinionated, and I use this term nicely--
Dylan: Mm-hmm.
Doug: Opinionated bullshit.
Dylan: Opinionated bullshit. Like, yes. I have a very leftist point of view. I have that point of view because I believe it is the right point of view. That's how I guess points of view work. Do you know what I mean?
Doug: Yeah. Yeah. I completely agree with you.
Dylan: It's not like I have that point of view because I'm trying it out this month. It's like I believe in it because that's what I believe to be the truth in this moment in time. I am a queer person of color, so I know what life looks like from that angle. And I can't live my life as anyone else. I can speak to people on the phone and that's super, super helpful. But who I am informs how I see the world.
Doug: Yeah. Yeah. I completely agree.
Dylan: Yeah. So, we started this conversation talking about media and media that you don't like. What is the media that you do like? Who are the voices you trust?
Doug: Who are the voices that I trust? I mean, I definitely trust a lot of my local media, a lot of my local TV stations.
Dylan: Mm-hmm.
Doug: I think local media is a lot better than CNN, or Fox, or MSNBC.
Dylan: Yeah. I just have to jump in and say, that's so funny that you say that. Because I don't believe that there's any such thing as like truly subjective bipartisan media.
Doug: Well, I will agree with you on that. There isn't one sort of news source that I just tune into and just tune out the world and just listen to them and just say, oh wow, this is actually what's happening. I follow a bunch of different things. You'd be surprised to know I actually do follow Huffington Post on Facebook.
Dylan: Mm-hmm.
Doug: I follow CNN. Because every now and then they're going to tell me something that I wouldn't have known if I didn't follow them.
Dylan: Mm-hmm.
Doug: I get my news from all sides. I get my news from the far left, the far right, the middle left, the middle right, people in the middle, people who are alt centrists, alt left, alt right. Because you know what? At the end of the day, all these people have different stories. But the truth lies somewhere in there. And the more that you read stories from each angle, you can see, okay, well this is sort of what actually happened. Okay. Well, this person says this and you start coming up with your own picture.
Dylan: Mm-hmm.
Doug: And you start coming up with your own identity. You start coming up with your own viewpoint as to how you view the world and how the way that other people create policies, how it affects you.
Dylan: Mm-hmm.
Doug: And how other people's viewpoints affect you.
Dylan: You said something interesting when you were telling me about your job at the country club. You said that you were figuring out what the next step is and what you want to do after that. What are you thinking of doing after that?
Doug: Yeah. Well, I'm not 100% sure, to be quite honest. I mean-
Dylan: That's okay. That's a great position to be in.
Doug: I've thought about getting into media stuff as well. But, once again, I don't have the connections. I don't have money. And see how polarizing it is, somebody who will agree with your position on something one day and then be diametrically opposed to something else wouldn't fit into the media very well in this day and age, unfortunately.
Dylan: Mm-hmm.
Doug: My degree was actually in political science. So, I've worked on a political campaign in the past. And once again, the more polarized it becomes, the harder it becomes for people who aren't in lockstep with groupthink to make an impact. So, I don't know. Politics, media, television would be great. But it's kind of a farfetched dream, so.
Dylan: That's interesting that you want to be part of media and you were saying that you don't think that your voice would be welcome.
Doug: Yeah. Not at all. Not even a little bit.
Dylan: Because you feel like you have more nuance than most media has.
Doug: I feel as though with media, it seems to be... like I said, it's just two ends of the spectrum. You either have to be very far left or very far right. That seems to be all the voices that are coming out. The edgier, the further out there the voice is, the more they're promoted, the more views they get. And that's just not the person I am. There's going to be days where people on the left are going to be completely horrified with the things I'm going to say. And there are days when people on the right are going to be completely horrified with the things I'm going to say. I wouldn't have much of a fan base.
Dylan: No. I hear you. Then I wonder, and maybe I'm projecting, so tell me if I'm far off. But do you think that had something to do with it? Right? You're talking about like you're considering and thinking about how to get into media, and then you see someone like me who's professing ideologies that you don't agree with, that you think are part of the problem with the media. So, maybe by calling me a talentless propaganda hack, there was also like, fuck this guy. Like he is part of the machine. And I would like to find my own way to be part of the machine.
Doug: I don't think I want to be part of the machine, but I would like to find my own way.
Dylan: Yeah. So, there's one word that I keep thinking of in this conversation and I'm thinking of it because you were saying before how the only things that get through in the media are the extremes, right?
Doug: Yeah.
Dylan: The word is synecdoche. I think I'm remembering the definition of this word. Okay. So, I learned it in high school poetry. And I've thought about it ever since and it feels appropriate for this call. I'm looking up the definition now. A figure of speech in which a part is made to represent the whole or vice versa. Like when you say like Hollywood is doing this. New York is doing this. Everyone is doing this.
Doug: Okay, yeah.
Dylan: And I feel like to say that that's what all of media is unfairly identifying a synecdoche. You know what I mean?
Doug: I will admit that you are right there.
Dylan: And then, to be fair, I also think that by you kind of calling me a talentless propaganda hack, it's like I don't know that you were aware of like the rest of my work. You know what I mean? So, like part of my work was standing for the whole of my work and it was standing for the whole of who I am. So, I feel like this word synecdoche is actually then very appropriate for who we become on the internet. We suddenly become who we are in our avatar pictures. We are the one post we make that someone either disagrees with or agrees with. And, in the same way that you are, previously to this conversation, you were solely the comment that you wrote me. Do you know what I mean? It's like in the world we live in right now, when we are exposed to so many people every single day on the internet, right? Like we scroll past so many humans, or rather avatars of those humans. And to make sense of the world, we have to engage in fitting them into part of the whole.
Doug: Generalized?
Dylan: Yeah, to generalize. So, yeah. I think this is interesting to me. I feel like I'm going to keep thinking on this for a while. I guess we're coming to the close of this conversation. Do you have any questions for me?
Doug: I can't think of any at the moment, to be honest.
Dylan: Okay. That's all right. I've really appreciated this conversation. Thanks for being part of it.
Doug: No problem. Thank you for having me.
Dylan: Of course. Do you regret writing that comment?
Doug: Well, no, because this conversation happened because of it.
Dylan: Yeah, you're right. Doug, you did it.
Doug: But do I think you're a talentless hack anymore? No, I don't.
Dylan: At the beginning, when I read you your comment, you said, that sounds like me. Have you written this stuff in other places online?
Doug: Oh, yeah. You better know it.
Dylan: Okay, great.
Doug: You better know it. I'm definitely a very confrontational person when it comes to a lot of these issues.
Dylan: Did the conversation we just had, does it like make you feel differently about how you write online?
Doug: Yeah. Actually, to be honest, it's definitely changed a little bit the way that I view the things that I say online. When I said this to you, when I said that you were a talentless hack, I had never conversed with you in my life. I had never spoken to you prior to that. And I just said that based on the things that I have seen that you've made, really. I didn't really know anything really about you. And I think that a lot of times that's what the comment sections really are. It's just a shit talking fest.
Dylan: Mm-hmm.
Doug: It's really almost seemingly like a way to get your anger at the world out on random profiles of strangers, pretty much.
Dylan: Yeah. Right. Right.
Doug: And so, I mean, it's unfortunate that that's kind of how we de-stress, but it seems to be very common among anyone with social media. But it definitely has made me rethink the way that I say and interact with people online. And I hope that it interacts, or I hope it has effect to you as well.
Dylan: Yeah.
Doug: I mean, I think in this day and age, we're very quick to label people.
Dylan: Mm-hmm.
Doug: We're very quick to call people an asshole, to call people racist, to call people like any sort of derogatory word just because we can.
Dylan: Yeah.
Doug: And I think maybe, instead of diluting the meaning of words, we should actually try and think, okay, what is this person actually trying to say right now?
Dylan: Yeah. I mean, that's literally the whole point of this podcast. Well, Doug, it has been a pleasure talking to you.
Doug: Feel free to message me or call me anytime, honestly.
Dylan: Totally. I completely will. And I'm very proud of you. And I think everything you were saying that you were considering and what your next steps are after working at the country club, I applaud you in whatever direction you want to take. And I fully understand how intimidating the world can feel when you don't feel like you have any of the connections or ability to kind of make the leap that you see other people making. And I just trust that you will find your way. I really do.
Doug: Well, thank you very much.
Dylan: Of course.
Doug: It actually does mean a lot to hear that.
Dylan: Oh, okay. Well, great. What a beautiful way to end then. Doug, it's been a pleasure. And I will see you on the internet and maybe talk to you soon.
Doug: All right. Look forward to it, Dylan.
Dylan: Bye, Doug.
Doug: Bye.
[Phone call ends with a hang up sound. The drumbeat from ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals kicks in.]
Dylan [VOICEOVER CLOSING CREDITS]: If you'd like to be a guest on this show and take your own online conversation and move it offline, please visit www.conversationswithpeoplewhohateme.com for more information.
“Conversations With People Who Hate Me” is a production of Night Vale Presents. Vincent Cacchione is the sound engineer and mixer. Christy Gressman is the Executive Producer. The theme song is "These Dark Times" by Caged Animals. The logo was designed by Rob Wilson. And this podcast was created, produced, and hosted by me, Dylan Marron.
Special thanks to Adam Cecil, Emily Mueller, and our publicist, Megan Larson.
We'll be releasing episodes every other week, so I'll see you in two weeks with a brand new conversation.
Until then, remember: there's a human on the other side of the screen.
[Chorus of ‘These Darks Times’ by Caged Animals plays.]