EPISODE 12: BURNED AT THE STAKE
Dylan: The idea that you told someone to burn at the stake, I'd call that offensive.
Tom: That is definitely offensive and I probably shouldn't have said that, but I did.
Dylan: Okay. But you did. Do you regret saying it?
Tom: Um...
[Instrumental of ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals begins to play.]
Dylan [VOICEOVER INTRODUCTION]: Hey, I'm Dylan Marron and welcome back to "Conversations with People Who Hate Me." The show where I take negative online conversations and move them from comment sections and inboxes to phone calls. Sometimes I have one on one conversations with people who have written negative things to or about me on the internet. And other times, I connect to strangers who have engaged in their own online negativity.
Today, I'll be connecting people. My first guest is Jaya who wrote an essay about the American television show "The Office", specifically questioning if the show holds up by today's standards. The essay was tweeted out and in response a man named Tom replied, "You should be burned at the stake for disrespecting 'The Office'. Also, stop being a pussy. PC is for non self aware pussies." Okay? So first I'll talk one on one to Jaya, then I'll talk one on one to Tom, and then I'll connect the two of them to each other. Let's get started.
[Music fades.]
Dylan: Hi, Jaya.
Jaya: Hi, Dylan.
Dylan: How are you?
Jaya: Good. How are you?
Dylan: I'm good. So you're a writer.
Jaya: I am a writer.
Dylan: Tell me when that started.
Jaya: It's been around for a long time, right?
Dylan: Writing?
Jaya: Writing...
Dylan: The idea of--
Jaya: ... the art of writing.
Dylan: Got it.
Jaya: I really started realizing that this is what I wanted to do as a career toward the end of college. But at this point I've been doing it for about a decade.
Dylan: So you write very publicly online?
Jaya: Yes, I do.
Dylan: And sometimes things you write online go viral?
Jaya: Yes, they do.
Dylan: So you recently wrote a piece critiquing the television show "The Office"?
Jaya: Yes, I did.
Dylan: What made you write that piece?
Jaya: So the piece was essentially looking back at "The Office" from where we stand in 2018 and seeing how it feels. So I revisited it and sort of to my horror and disappointment found that I had a really hard time finding it as funny as I did when I first watched it. And a lot of what "The Office" deals with is this very bad boss, this boss who says a lot of racist, sexist things, and thinks they're funny and sort of traumatizes his employees. And how does that look and how does that feel at a moment where we're all talking about workplace harassment, and sexual harassment, and these things that have very real consequences?
Dylan: Have you ever been criticized for being too politically correct? And I'm asking this as someone who has always been criticized for being too politically correct.
Jaya: Yeah. It's funny, I think I very much used to be the person that would do the criticizing in a way.
Dylan: In what context?
Jaya: I think I was very enamored with being the cool girl for a long time, but I think I also was fed the idea that being politically correct was that you were just doing this to score brownie points with some unknown entity rather than for the direct betterment of yourself and the people around you. So, I very much understand where that reticence to accept the idea of political correctness comes from. But since I've embraced being the social justice warrior and being that person, I have certainly been accused of being too politically correct on things.
Dylan: Right. Do you still love "The Office"?
Jaya: I don't think I will be able to give up "The Office". I think that there are a lot of things in it that I really love. I think it might be awhile before I sit down and watch it all again. But I still think that there are so many good performances in "The Office". I think there are so many good jokes in "The Office". I, by no means, want everyone to just completely wash their hands of it and think that this was, well, it's wholly bad and we can just never talk about it again. I just think it's always useful to look at the art that we love, and think about why we love it, and what are some difficult things in it. But you're still allowed to love it.
Dylan: Well, I was just going to ask, do you think that by criticizing, critiquing a piece of art, a television show, a movie, a book that you're taking away from it?
Jaya: No, I don't think that critiquing something means you can't appreciate it, or enjoy it, or be a fan of it. I think this is all part of being a fan and all part of being somebody who enjoys various forms of art. I would much rather live in the world where we can have these honest, difficult conversations than just accept everything at face value. Look, anytime we experience art, we're experiencing it and bringing into it our entire life experiences. I can't watch "The Office" as not a woman. I can't watch "The Office" as not a person of Indian heritage. When I watch Michael Scott make racist remarks to Kelly, I can't not be an Indian woman when that happens. And as much as the phrase "triggering" will trigger people who are against it, that brings up visceral reactions. And sometimes I can move past them and see where the humor is and sometimes I can't. Nobody watches a TV show in a vacuum. And because of that, everybody is going to have their own experience and that's why I can't get mad if someone criticizes it because someone else is going to watch "The Office" with their own context and it's going to bring up their own feelings to it that are going to be completely different than mine. And I'll never experienced that and they'll never experience the way I watch it.
Dylan: Yeah. And this is a great segue because in a tweet responding to that article someone wrote, "You should be burned at the stake for disrespecting 'The Office'. Also, stop being a pussy. PC is for non self aware pussies." So how does it feel to see a response like that to your piece?
Jaya: As a non self aware pussy.
Dylan: As a non self aware pussy, yeah.
Jaya: I've certainly had people get mad at me online before about various things and sometimes it hits very personally. If this were in response to an article I maybe wrote, to more of a personal essay, that I wrote about my experience, I think I would have been a lot more upset or a lot more traumatized by it. But the fact that it was about "The Office", I think, let me step back from it a little bit just because I'm... you know it's about "The Office". I don't need "The Office" in my life. I like "The Office", I'm happy that it exists, and that it's brought joy to so many people, but it's not a fundamental part of my identity that I was being attacked for. And so I was more just curious about what makes somebody love a piece of art so much that this is the sort of vitriol that they're going to go after someone who gives it... in my opinion, it was a mild critique.
Dylan: So Jaya, are you curious about the person who wrote this tweet?
Jaya: I am. I definitely am.
[Solo conversation ends. Phone rings. Second guest picks up.]
Tom: Hello.
Dylan: Hey, is this Tom?
Tom: Yes, it is. Let me get outside where you can hear me a little better. My friend needs it quiet in here. He is playing a very intense new video game.
Dylan: Okay, great. I support that.
Tom: Okay. All right. Okay. Can you hear me okay?
Dylan: I can hear you great. This is perfect.
Tom: All right.
Dylan: So Tom, how is your day going? Let's just start there.
Tom: It's going pretty well. A bit of a late night and it's raining now, but everything is all better now. I've had my coffee, so, yeah.
Dylan: Well, congratulations. You're living the life.
Tom: Yes.
Dylan: Okay. Let's start here, so only in as many details as you're comfortable sharing, tell me about you.
Tom: Okay. Geez, I don't even know where to start. I have a dog who I love very much and her name is Athena. And she is a pistol.
Dylan: Oh, love it.
Tom: But she's awesome. She just wants cuddles.
Dylan: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Tom: And I just recently started playing basketball. I'm a little on the chubbier side, so I've liked it. It's a good way to lose weight. I'm pretty quiet. Old school kind of guy. I like to read. I like a nice glass of Scotch and a cigar.
Dylan: Nice. Fancy.
Tom: I guess. I guess.
Dylan: So I'll bring it up. The tweet that we are here to discuss is that in response to someone's essay about the television show "The Office", you wrote, "You should be burned at the stake for disrespecting 'The Office'. Also, stop being a pussy. PC is for non self aware pussies." So Tom, what inspired you to write that?
Tom: The gentleman is saying that "The Office" is not... It's a dude, right?
Dylan: No, it's actually a woman.
Tom: Okay. The woman is saying that "The Office" is not politically correct and it doesn't really, I don't know, kind of belong in this generation's TV sphere. And I'm the type of person that I don't really take offense to things and I find that my life is a lot easier and less stressful that way. But "The Office" really had a way of bringing something out of me that's... I don't know. It gives you a warm and fuzzy on the inside. I'm not very good at all this hallmark stuff.
Dylan: Yeah. So what is it about "The Office" that gives you that warm feeling?
Tom: It basically tracks these people for 10 years of their lives and you see them grow for 10 years. And watching that show, honestly, it did a really big thing for me emotionally and again, I'm not trying to get all hallmark, but it really did. It made me think about things a different way. I guess my feathers got a little ruffled when she wrote that article.
Dylan: Yeah. I get the idea of being defensive about this thing that is near and dear to you, but at the same time, I also think that what you wrote is offensive, right? The idea that you told someone to burn at the stake, I'd call it that offensive.
Tom: That is definitely offensive and I probably shouldn't have said that, but I did.
Dylan: Okay. But you did. Do you regret saying it?
Tom: That's a tough question. Let me give you a two part answer.
Dylan: I'll take it.
Tom: Part A, no, no, no because I'm very unapologetic and I know full well that this is not the right way to conduct being a person. And I'm working on that in 2018. New year, new me. Hashtag bless up. And here is side B of the vinyl. I do want to change as a person. Some people would describe me as a dick. So I'm really trying not to be a dick. And what I said earlier was being a dick and I am sorry for being a dick. I shouldn't have been a dick.
Dylan: So why the hashtag new year, new me?
Tom: It's a popular hashtag on Twitter.
Dylan: No, totally. But why for you?
Tom: To be perfectly honest with you, I'm not a very open minded person. I'm the kind of person that sees someone who is different than me and I immediately kind of feel uncomfortable. In the spirit of full disclosure, that's been with people of different races, people of different creeds, people who are part of the lesbian gay community. I know that it's L-G... I don't know what the... There's four letters and I don't know what they are.
Dylan: LGBTQIA.
Tom: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That part of the, yeah... The members of that community and from this span of a few months in particular from being around all those different types of people and talking to them and learning their story, I almost feel kind of stupid that I've been this close minded all this time. I know, and I'm not sure if you're comfortable with me talking about this-
Dylan: Of course.
Tom: ... you told me you were gay. Is it cool if we discuss that?
Dylan: Of course.
Tom: Dude, if you told me that like two or three years ago, I promise you, you can write this on a rock, that we would not be having this conversation right now.
Dylan: You wouldn't even want to talk, right?
Tom: No, no. As soon as I found out that fact, that would have been the end of that conversation. And now I'm kind of kicking myself in the ass because dude, you're fucking cool guy. You seem like a pretty, pretty chill MOFO.
Dylan: Chill enough, yeah.
Tom: So I appreciate that. And, dude, I wouldn't have even gotten the opportunity to do this and I honestly... this is cool as shit. I feel like a movie star right now.
Dylan: You are. Look at you. You are on the podcast radio waves.
Tom: Hell yeah.
Dylan: But you were saying that you would not have even agreed to this conversation a few years ago?
Tom: If I'm being honest with you, I had my head up my ass at that point and now it's still up my ass, but my chin and my nose are out, so I'm working on it. I'm still kind of an asshole hence the tweets. But I am working on it.
Dylan: You first.
Tom: I'm going to say something super cliche and then I'll stop talking profusely.
Dylan: Okay, okay. No, this is great.
Tom: I think to close out my babbling bullshit, people are trying way too hard. They are seeking to be understood first. I don't think there is enough of seeking to understand before seeking to be understood. Does that make any sense?
Dylan: Yeah, I mean I think a lot of people want to explain themselves more than they want to listen.
Tom: Yes, yes, yes, exactly.
Dylan: So with that being said, are you ready to talk to the author of this essay about "The Office"?
Tom: Are you ready? Yes, I'm ready.
Dylan: I'll take that as a yes.
[Phone rings. Guest picks up.]
Jaya: Hi, Tom.
Tom: Hello, Jaya. I did not know your name. I'm sorry. That's a very pretty name.
[BREAK]
Jaya: Hi, Tom.
Tom: Hello, Jaya. I did not know your name. I'm sorry. That's a very pretty name.
Dylan: That's okay. But look at you guys, Jaya and Tom, we're here. We're on the call all together. So first of all, how are you guys feeling? Tom, how are you feeling?
Tom: I have had my coffee, so I'm very amicable.
Dylan: Okay. Perfect. Jaya, how are you doing?
Jaya: I too have had coffee and I'm feeling good.
Dylan: Okay.
Tom: Let's get a shout out to coffee real quick. Can we get that going on?
Dylan: Coffee is sponsoring this whole episode. Just the general idea of coffee.
Jaya: Making my whole day possible.
Dylan: Yeah, exactly.
Tom: Yeah.
Dylan: So to get things started, I want you guys to get to know who you are beyond this moment that you've intersected at on the internet. So Jaya, tell Tom about you.
Jaya: Hi.
Tom: What's up?
Jaya: I am a born and raised New Yorker. I am married. I have two cats. I've been a writer in some capacity for most of my career, whether that was me doing it on the side while I had other jobs or me doing it full-time. And my mother's white. My dad's from India. My dad raised me on Monty Python, on Mel Brooks.
Tom: Mel Brooks is the man.
Dylan: Now, Tom, again, in as many details as you're comfortable with, tell Jaya about you.
Tom: Okay. I'm Tom. Damn, this has always been a tough question for me. Dude, they asked me, what am I like? He would probably tell you I'm fucking weird. I have a dog. Her name is Athena. She just turned 18 in dog years, which is...
Dylan: Happy birthday.
Tom: Two and five eighths in human years, if I'm not mistaken.
Dylan: Nice.
Tom: I'm trying to keep track. I just played her all the "Fast and Furious" movies. She's old enough to watch those.
Jaya: Oh, yes. I also love the "Fast and Furious" movies.
Tom: Yeah. Okay. Which one's the best?
Jaya: Oh, that's a toss up between five and seven for me.
Tom: Oh, I'm a number three man. It's all about the "Tokyo Drift".
Jaya: Oh, "Tokyo Drift" is also very good.
Tom: Yeah.
Dylan: So, switching gears a little here, Tom, can you tell Jaya why you wrote in response to her article, "You should be burned at the stake for disrespecting 'The Office'. Also, stop being a pussy. PC is for non self aware pussies."
Tom: I would like to go on record as saying that I did indeed say that.
Dylan: Okay, great.
Tom: I mean, I got a little upset that you wrote that article. I understand that some of the things that they say in The Office are offensive to certain people, but they really do let everybody have it, everybody gets the sauce. I trademark that, by the way. Yeah, everybody gets this off in "The Office", which I guess it's offensive to everybody, but they're not singling out one group of people in particular, which, I mean, that would not sit very kosher with me. And I just think that today it's become more of almost like a social necessity to find one thing or a group of things to be super offended at. And I kind of personally blew your article off as like, "Come on! It's fucking funny." And I think you said, correct me if I'm wrong, please, that it's like kind of more or less doesn't really belong on TV in our generation.
Jaya: Well, I think more of the point that I was trying to make is that given a lot of these conversations about sexual harassment in and outside the workplace and other forms of harassment, that it's not that people can't watch it or enjoy it, but that right now, at least for me, it was harder to watch it without immediately thinking of all these conversations and without it immediately being a little too personal or a little too close for comfort. But I'm curious, do you think that because I critiqued it that I was saying that it shouldn't be allowed exist?
Tom: Honestly, yes and no. Because I mean, I'm sure you've seen the show and enjoyed some parts of it at least.
Jaya: I have. I like "The Office".
Dylan: Yeah. So you do both share that.
Tom: Oh, "The Office" is the shit. I appreciate that.
Jaya: Right. No, it's something that I have enjoyed a lot. It was something that my dad was the one to introduce "The Office" to me.
Tom: Yeah. My mom introduced it to me. I mean, she brought this weird show home one day from the library. This is before the days of Netflix. And I was kind of looking at it, "The Office", this is weird. Not really what I'm into. And I put it on and I couldn't put it down. It's just you want to know what happens next.
Jaya: Yeah, no, I feel like my dad, when it was first on, he had heard about the British version of "The Office" and then was super excited when this was coming on. And my dad and I were already big Steve Carell fans from when he was on "The Daily Show", and so we always watched this together and really enjoyed it. So I was very disappointed to find myself feeling this way because I didn't want to feel anything but complete, unobstructed love for "The Office". And then I found that a lot of my feelings were a little more complicated and I wanted to express that, but also that I don't think that keeps me from appreciating it.
Dylan: So Tom, now hearing why Jaya wrote this. I want to kind of bring up a point you made in your tweet, which is the idea of political correctness.
Tom: The idea of political correctness. All right.
Dylan: So Tom, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I think it's fair to say you're not a fan.
Tom: That's fair to say. No, I'm not a fan of political correctness.
Jaya: What do you think the problem with political correctness is?
Tom: Oh my God, it's too much. I know I'm supposed to word that a little bit better and fancier, but I think people sometimes forget that we have a first amendment and it really does let you say or think whatever you want. I personally am not offended by a lot of shit. I just try to live my life. And I guess that collides with other people's lives, i.e. this phone conversation that we're having right now.
Dylan: So Tom, you brought up the first amendment.
Tom: I did.
Dylan: And it's funny, the way I kind of see this podcast is I feel like this podcast is like the continuation of the first amendment. It's like, "Yes, you are free to say whatever you want. But here is how you can listen to someone who is affected by it." You know what I mean?
Tom: So these are like the footnotes of the first amendment.
Jaya: Yeah.
Dylan: These are the footnotes of the first amendment.
Tom: I fuck with that.
Jaya: I always think... because I agree, I think there's a lot about the first amendment that people forget. Yeah. You're allowed to say you want and people are allowed to criticize you for it or disagree with you or whatever. But I always wonder that it's like, yes, you can say whatever you want, but why are you then choosing to say that specific thing? And I'm also a writer, so I think about that a lot.
Tom: Understandably so.
Dylan: Yeah. So, Tom, I think the best way to put it is that it's not just the footnotes to the first amendment, it's like the first amendment--God bless it. It exists. And this is what comes after, you know?
Tom: Yes, yes. The aftermath.
Dylan: The aftermath of the first amendment, right? A lot of the article was about how "The Office" makes light of workplace abuse. Tom, have you experienced workplace abuse?
Tom: I'm a former marine and I don't think I've ever worked anywhere around a female ever in my life except for the Marine Corps, actually.
Dylan: Jaya, have you experienced workplace abuse?
Jaya: I have. And I think, Tom, it sounds like the places we've worked have been relatively different. I definitely have worked around a lot of women, but I think a lot of the abuse I've gotten has never been anything so outright as to have someone physically attack me or assault me. Nobody-
Tom: So that's good. I'm happy about that.
Jaya: Thank you. No one explicitly refusing me promotions or opportunities because of my gender or my race. None of that. But there certainly has been comments about my body because I'm a woman, comments about my race and my background that I'm pretty sure a white person wouldn't have gotten. And nothing so serious as to completely derail my career or even derail my day. But just stuff that over time piles up and I notice more. And I notice that other people don't experience or get the same way. And I do. And then I noticed when other people get it worse than I do. So I think it's more just been something that because of my experiences I have been made aware of a lot more.
Tom: Well that would make perfect sense. I have seen a little bit of it, I guess, but probably not nearly to the extent that you have. A lot of the guys that I work with are African American. I'm actually the only Caucasian man in the office. So I learned a lot of cool stuff, started looking more and more into why people that are black people in particular, they're so upset now because of the way things are going in this country. I'm starting to understand it a little bit more. I used to just write it off as like, "Oh well, damn, they're just upset over nothing I guess." But it's not over nothing.
Dylan: This is interesting if I can be so bold as to kind of identify the theme of this conversation.
Tom: Oh, shots fired, shots fired.
Dylan: Shots fired, shots fired. I think the theme is essentially like we are what we are exposed to. Jaya, you were talking about the comedy you are exposed to and how it influenced who you are as a person, who you are as a writer. Tom, you were talking about what kinds of things you were exposed to, how you changed when you started working with mostly black people. So, given that, this all started because of "The Office". Now that you've talked to Jaya, do you see "The Office" differently at all, or can you understand why someone might not see it the way you see it?
Tom: I'm not going to stop thinking about it in the way I do, but I can definitely appreciate where you're coming from because I didn't even think about not being exposed to a workplace like that ever. I guess, I don't know, I didn't really put myself in your shoes. And you having those experiences and seeing them firsthand, I mean, that's alien to me. And I can definitely appreciate where you're coming from on the article.
Jaya: Well, Tom, thank you for also being so open minded about this. I feel sort of the same way. I think that for anyone, it's very easy to get caught up in your own environment. If we're talking about being a product of our environments, most of our environments consist of a lot of people who, who think like us, look like us, have our same values. And even if we make a really big effort to try to expand our worldview beyond that, it's really hard and sometimes you lose track of being able to do that. And I feel like for myself it's a constant reminder not to get stuck in the bubble that I'm in. And so I feel like this has been really great because, Tom, obviously you and I come from pretty different backgrounds, but it's been awhile since I think I've been able to have a conversation with somebody who comes from such a different place than me. And I get nervous about it sometimes. But I think the fact that this has gone really well, and we hear each other, and we understand each other, it just feels so valuable.
Tom: Yeah. I appreciate it too. I mean, when Dylan hit me up and said, "Hey man, are you trying to back up what you said?" I was like, "Hell yeah. That's awesome. That is what people should be doing." I don't know. The first amendment is a great thing. Use it to its maximum potential. That's what we're doing right now.
Jaya: Yeah.
Dylan: Yeah. That's what we're doing.
Jaya: It's the aftermath.
Dylan: The aftermath of the first amendment. I know we're closing this out, but Tom, since it's what brought us here, I have to ask, do you think Jaya should be burned at the stake?
Tom: I, as an enterprise or a person, do not endorse the burning of anyone at the stake. That is highly, highly illegal. It has been illegal for about 300 years. So, I meant that as like a witch reference.
Jaya: Yeah. I get it.
Tom: Yeah. So yeah. Yeah. Or Joan of Arc, whoever you fuck with.
Dylan: Yeah, Joan.
Tom: But no, no, you shouldn't be burnt at the stake. You're a lovely woman. You're awesome.
Jaya: Thank you.
Tom: And actually, I wanted to ask like a sub question.
Dylan: Please.
Tom: Do you guys like sushi, both of you?
Jaya: Yeah.
Dylan: Sushi.
Tom: Next time I'm in New York, I'm going to hit you up, Dylan.
Dylan: Yes.
Tom: To see if you want to get some sushi and we better all get together.
Dylan: I would love that.
Jaya: I would love that.
Dylan: Okay, so we're going to get sushi.
Tom: Hell yeah.
Dylan: That sounds great.
Tom: All right.
Dylan: Well, this has been wonderful. I just have to ask. It's the title of the show. I'm 100% sure I know the answer. But this show is called "Conversations with People Who Hate Me". Jaya, do you hate Tom?
Jaya: Not at all.
Dylan: And Tom, do you hate Jaya?
Tom: Nah, I fuck with you.
Jaya: I was like, "That was way too long of a pause. Hold on."
Dylan: Yeah, I was like, "Geez, we're getting it."
Tom: So, I wanted to keep you guys in suspense.
Dylan: I know we felt in suspense. So Tom, thank you so much. Jaya, thank you so much.
Jaya: Thank you, Dylan.
Tom: Thank you.
Dylan: I guess I will see you both on the internet.
Jaya: Yeah.
Tom: All right guys. Be safe.
Dylan: Bye, Tom.
Tom: See you.
Jaya: Bye.
[Phone call ends with a hang up sound. The drumbeat from ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals kicks in.]
Dylan [VOICEOVER CLOSING CREDITS]: If you'd like to be a guest on this show and take your own online conversation and move it offline, please visit www.conversationswithpeoplewhohateme.com for more information.
"Conversations with People Who Hate Me" is a production of Night Vale Presents. Vincent Cacchione is the Sound Engineer and Mixer. Christy Gressman is the Executive Producer. The theme song is "These Dark Times" by Caged Animals. The logo was designed by Rob Wilson. And this podcast was created, produced, and hosted by me, Dylan Marron.
Special thanks to Adam Cecil, Emily Mueller, and our publicist, Megan Larson.
We'll be releasing episodes every other week, so I'll see you in two weeks with a brand new conversation.
Until then, remember: there's a human on the other side of the screen.
[Chorus of ‘These Darks Times’ by Caged Animals plays.]