EPISODE 11: THE TRANS BAN
Dylan [VOICEOVER]: This is Tyler. He's a veteran.
Tyler: I looked up, how long does it take to transition? What happens when someone does transition? And so, I thought maybe it would be better if trans people weren't able to serve. I mean, I guess I just have a lot of questions.
Dylan [VOICEOVER]: And this is Maddie. She's also a veteran.
Maddie: I served for 16 years in the military, so the place I have in my heart for the Marines is right next to the place where I feel in my core that I'm trans.
Tyler: Hi Maddie.
Maddie: Hello. How are you?
[Instrumental of ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals begins to play.]
Dylan [VOICEOVER INTRODUCTION]: Hey, I'm Dylan Marron and welcome back to "Conversations With People Who Hate Me," the show where I move negative online conversations from inboxes, comment sections, and social media posts to phone calls.
Now, sometimes I speak one on one with people who have said negative things about me on the Internet, and other times I share this platform with people who have received their own digital negativity. In this episode, I'm connecting two people who didn't know each other before this call. Their relationship is through me.
My first guest, Tyler Gilmore, is my husband's cousin. And the other guest, Maddie Makara, is the wife of my childhood babysitter. Why am I connecting them? Well, it comes down to one topic, the proposed ban of transgender folks serving in the military. In a since-deleted Facebook post, Tyler, a veteran of the Marines, publicly expressed his support of the ban. Maddie is also a veteran of the marines, and she recently came out as a trans woman.
First I'll speak one on one with Tyler, then I'll speak one on one with Maddie, and after that I'll connect them to each other. So let's get started.
[Music fades.]
Dylan: Hi Tyler.
Tyler: Hello.
Dylan: How are you?
Tyler: Good. I'm doing good.
Dylan: You are a veteran.
Tyler: Yes.
Dylan: And a Marine?
Tyler: Yes.
Dylan: Okay. So what made you want to join the Marines?
Tyler: I mean, there was a plethora of reasons why I wanted to join. I come from a poor family and I wanted to explore the world and get out of the small town of Middleton, Idaho. And I also was trying to come out of the closet at the same time, and so it was like this ... I thought in my head ... I thought, "If I join the Marine Corps," part of me was like, "It'll turn me into a man". And then the other part of me was like, "Oh, I'll be the first Marine to serve openly gay," which obviously wasn't true at the time. I just was unaware.
Dylan: But you were like, why not? Let's get that record.
Tyler: Yeah. And it was a good choice. I mean, ultimately I'm the first person in my immediate family to even get a degree, and so it ended up being very, very good for me.
Dylan: What was it like being in the Marines?
Tyler: It's very intense and ... Right in the beginning bootcamp was really challenging. I definitely cried a few times. Everybody cries at bootcamp and if they say they didn't they're lying.
Dylan: But this is the truth coming from you.
Tyler: Exactly. And so, middle of the night, no one's looking you just ... You sob, like deep, deep sobbing. Yeah, when people ask me, I always say it was very intense. It was some of the best and worst experiences of my life and it taught me amazing lessons. I think a lot of the times in the United States we do live in this very small bubble of ... Very safe bubble for the most part. But going to places like war torn nations, that really ... I almost feel like everybody should have to go and see something like that because it is so intense and it is so eye opening and it really changes your view on everything from how you view your family to how you view your friends, how you view objects. I just don't view objects the same anymore. None of that seems to matter since I came back.
Dylan: You mean like material--
Tyler: Yeah. Materialistic stuff. Yeah, and I'm in what's called inactive service. If shit hits the fan, they're going to call back someone like me and other people who have-
Dylan: Who's inactive right now.
Tyler: Exactly.
Dylan: And so, what have you been doing in your inactive duty time?
Tyler: Well, the first thing I did when I got out ... I took some college courses when I was in. I was in a combat battalion and we just could not do courses. I wanted to do school so bad and I couldn't do it, so when I got out, I immediately went to a community college in Bellingham, Washington. And so, into my second year of college I started applying to schools and I got accepted into Cornell, which was across the country. And once I got in, I screamed. I told my dad. He was like, "Oh my god!" And I packed my bag up ... Or, my apartment up and drove across the country, and that's where I'm at right now.
Dylan: Okay, great. Now, to bring this into a more macro conversation. July of 2017, Trump announces the trans ban in the military, and your feelings about that were?
Tyler: That tweet, I was absolutely against the tweet. It's not necessary to say something like that. So I was not for that, but is it a good thing to have transgenders in the military? Does it affect the overall readiness?
Dylan: Okay. So in a since deleted Facebook post, you expressed support for the ban. Not the tweet, but the ban. Why did you write that post?
Tyler: I saw like outrage on the left, right? Are you fucking kidding me? How dare you do something like that? I was annoyed that the left was reacting like this when there's... When I felt like they were so opposed to the military industrial complex in general. A lot of my friends on the left were like just so mad at me that I could even think that maybe it would be a good idea to have a ban on transgenders in the military. And that was just my argument. I was like, "Well, I mean, they're not inclusive and they're not equitable. It's not the point of the military." The military's point is to be a fighting force, to kill.
Dylan: When people started pushing back on you for that post, how did you start to feel?
Tyler: I mean, I don't know. I mean, I didn't feel ... I mean, I wasn't upset, but I was just ... Lay off me. Most of them weren't even military members and that's what's irritating. It was people who had never even experienced the military and have no idea what it's like to be under the pressure of combat, and then they're coming at me being like, "We need to do this and this," and I'm just like, "Shut the fuck up."
Dylan: And where do you stand now on it? Are you pro the trans ban?
Tyler: I'm honestly just still confused about it. Like I don't want to be against it, and I want to be for it because I want everybody to feel a part of this country. I don't want them to feel left out. But it is really complicated because I do feel like there's a lot of issues that come on board with that. I looked up like, how long does it take to transition? What happens when someone does transition? I watched a few YouTube videos. And so, my thing is if someone comes in and they're trans with the hope to transition in the military, that makes them inoperable for six months to a year is what I read because of hormone treatment. And then, if they get the surgery on top of that, and then you're getting hormone treatment, which affects your brain. I mean, steroids are illegal and you can't take those. And a lot of that is because of the reactions that you have. Not only metabolically, but--
Dylan: And steroids are illegal--
Tyler: They are illegal in the Marines, in the military in general. And so, that was my thing. And then when they're... I mean, I guess I just have a lot of questions.
Dylan: But what an amazing place to start, right? Questions are a great thing to have. So did you know any trans marines?
Tyler: Not a single one that I served with. I never met a single one. I didn't know anybody in the marines, no.
Dylan: Okay. So we can change that right now.
Tyler: Cool. Yeah.
Dylan: Lucky you.
Tyler: Is she in the marines?
Dylan: Yeah.
Tyler: Wow.
[Solo conversation ends. Phone rings. Second guest picks up.]
Maddie: Hello.
Dylan: Hi Maddie.
Maddie: Hi. How are you?
Dylan: I'm good. How are you doing?
Maddie: Pretty good.
Dylan: So Maddie, in only as many details as you're comfortable sharing, tell me about you.
Maddie: Well, I grew up in a small town--Massachusetts--and a conservative family. We went to church a lot, I was a Pentecostal Christian, and I was this solitary kid with long hair. I spent almost all my time either playing sax and guitar or skateboarding, and I used those as my outlets for getting my frustration out a lot.
Dylan: And what are you seeking an outlet from?
Maddie: I feel like I didn't know myself at all. I couldn't see myself in the future. I couldn't see myself in the present. I didn't really want to go into college right away. I was thinking just an adventure into the unknown might be best for me, because I'm an unknowable person. So I decided to join the Marines as a musician, even though I knew almost nothing about the Marines.
Dylan: And this was right out of high school?
Maddie: Yup.
Dylan: What was the introduction to the Marines like?
Maddie: All marines have to go through three month bootcamp combat training, so it was a lot of hard work. It was a ton of work, but it really was an adventure. I got to travel the country. I became a leader very early. I was a sergeant before my 21st birthday.
Dylan: Oh my God.
Maddie: Things that I learned there have propelled me through the past 20 years. The core values in the marines, honor, courage, and commitment and integrity. Those things, especially now ... And I'm really feeling them in my core and they define me in a big way.
Dylan: How are you using honor, courage, and commitment right now?
Maddie: I really feel like I'm honoring my friends and family and others out there who have struggled with who they are through the years by being myself now coming out as a trans woman. It's funny, because sometimes I think it's sort of like one of those born identity movies where the government taught me these values, and little did they know that one day I would use them to live openly as a trans woman.
Dylan: Yeah, that's beautiful. What was the coming out process like?
Maddie: Well, after I left the Marines, I had an epiphany a few years ago that life is really short. It's about living your life as who you are with integrity, and being an example of that for sure for your kids. And I have a daughter, so there was a huge shift in me when I felt that and I knew I had to come out. And it wasn't even a question, I just knew I had to do it. It was a really magical moment too, because now it became a challenge and it was, "Oh, you think this is impossible? Wait and see, because I'm coming for you, life, and I'm going to slay this thing."
Dylan: Yeah. Oh my God. That's so beautiful. Wow. How has it felt to live out loud and proudly as a trans woman?
Maddie: It's been amazing. It was hard going right up to that moment and I didn't know how people would react. I knew people would be surprised, but I wasn't expecting to be surprised myself by the reactions because I just got a ton of support and love from-
Dylan: That's wonderful.
Maddie: A lot of people. People I served in the Marines with, and then I also was in the Air National Guard, and people have been amazing.
Dylan: So last July, when Trump suddenly announced this trans ban in the military, where were you when that happened and how did it feel to see that?
Maddie: I think I was at work, I think, and I heard the news. I had a swirl of thoughts and feelings in the wake of that. I served for 16 years in the military, and that's not a small thing. I come to it from that perspective, and everybody thinks of the phrase: "Once A Marine, Always A Marine." If you're a marine, it's weird because it's almost like an unsentimental fact. It's just, it is what it is. You are a marine. That's just the way ... It's just a fact. So the place that I have in my heart for the Marines is right next to the place I have in my heart where I feel in my core that I'm trans, and they're like two sides of the same coin because the courage and integrity I learned in the military are things I use every day. And that have really given me the opportunity, I feel like, to do this thing.
Dylan: Did you interact with any people who vocally supported the ban?
Maddie: No, I really haven't done that. I've steered clear of that.
Dylan: So you are about to talk to someone who did, at least at one point, vocally support the trans ban. How are you feeling?
Maddie: I'm feeling pretty good. It's a little nerve racking, I guess, because I don't really do that. Talk to people about issues like this. I steer clear of that, and ... I do think my example, just being myself and being in the lives of my friends and family, that has some effect I hope.
Dylan: Well, do you feel ready to have this conversation?
Maddie: Yup, I think so.
Dylan: Okay. All right, well let's do it.
Maddie: Great.
[Phone rings. Guest picks up.]
Tyler: Hi Maddie.
Maddie: Hello. How are you?
[BREAK]
Dylan: Maddie, can you hear us at an okay level?
Maddie: Yup. You sound reverby, but it's probably like a speaker phone or something.
Dylan: We are on speaker phone, but it's just for recording purposes. Are you okay with that?
Maddie: No, I have to back out. I'm sorry.
Dylan: Okay. All right. Well, thank you so much. [Laughter.] To kick things off, Maddie, can you talk to Tyler about your history and time in the Marines?
Maddie: Sure. Joined the Marines in '97, and I had a unique job in the Marines as a musician, but went through bootcamp, combat training, everything marines do. In a single day, we could spend hours on a really delicate piece of music and then go and ... firearm training, gas chamber, physical fitness. But it was a lot of hard work.
Dylan: And now, just so you can hear, Tyler, tell Maddie about your experience in the Marines.
Tyler: Sure. I was a 3531 motor vehicle operator, and so when we deployed, we did route clearance, we did security, we did logistics. A lot of it was just prepping a lot of convoys, a lot of weapons maintenance and training, and probably a lot of the same things that you did. Gas chamber too.
Dylan: What does that mean? That sounds terrifying to me.
Tyler: Gas chamber? Do you want to take that, Maddie?
Dylan: Maddie, what's that?
Maddie: Well, I mean, gas chamber training... You go and you're in this enclosed space and they release tear gas, and you have to do a series of things and if you do them correctly then you get out of there and you'll be fine. You'll get through it. But if you can't operate your gas mask correctly or you don't breathe as you should, if you're too nervous, then a few seconds after getting in there, you're crawling for the door.
Dylan: Damn. Yeah, that'll fuck you up. Okay, this is great to know. I also now wanted to bring up... You both very bravely came out as identities, one of which was not and one of which now is not necessarily welcome in the military. Tyler, I want to start with you. You came out as gay.
Tyler: Yeah. Yeah, I did. I remember when Don't Ask Don't Tell was repealed. I was deployed and-
Dylan: It was right then?
Tyler: Yeah, it was. And somebody ran up to me with a newspaper that had this image of a male marine jumping on another male marine kissing him in the Hawaii Hangar Bay.
Dylan: I remember that actually.
Tyler: Yeah, it was an iconic photo. Then I tried to come out and my best friend at the time, he abandoned me. I mean, he stopped being my friend entirely and this was in a combat environment.
Dylan: Whoa.
Tyler: And I just went into a very deep depression and I didn't want to come out. Then when I came back out of deployment, I just couldn't ... I wanted to come out, and Don't Ask Don't Tell was repealed so I knew I could.
Dylan: And just so people know how that works, Don't Ask Don't Tell was a policy implemented by Clinton, right?
Tyler: Correct.
Dylan: That was saying, "You're welcome to be gay in the military as long as you don't tell anyone."
Tyler: I think that's a little bit too--
Dylan: Generous?
Tyler: Yeah. Way too generous. During when Don't Ask Don't Tell was in place, people were getting kicked out quite often. I remember even being in when it was Don't Ask Don't Tell, and I remember them... My sergeant coming around and just saying like, "If any of you guys get caught, know we're going to find you faggots." Blah, blah, blah.
Dylan: Fuck.
Tyler: Oh yeah. And he's like, "Even though it might be repealed here in the next couple of years, just know that if we catch you being a fag before then you're out." And I remember like my fists... My palms like sweat, and I was just like, "Oh my God. Oh my God."
Dylan: I mean, this is a really important thing we're hitting on right now, which is that policy is affecting how people are treated.
Tyler: Oh yeah. Absolutely.
Dylan: Yeah. So Maddie, you were serving in the time when Don't Ask Don't Tell was law, right?
Maddie: That's right.
Dylan: What was the vibe under Don't Ask Don't Tell?
Maddie: I did actually have very close friends in the Marines who were gay, who either told me at the time or later.
Dylan: Were they nervous?
Maddie: We didn't talk about it.
Dylan: Yeah. Right. That's the name of the policy. How have you been treated as a gay marine, both in the Marines and beyond?
Tyler: When I did come out, obviously the first time in Afghanistan, it was bad. It was not good.
Dylan: That was when the faggot talk was happening.
Tyler: Yeah, losing a friend was not ideal. Then when I came out in Hawaii when I got back, it was actually one of the most beautiful experiences of my life. I came out to one of my best friends, and he looked at me and it was just like the sweetest thing. He just had this smile and he just looked at me. He's like, "What?" And I was like, "Yeah, I'm gay." And he was just like, "Why didn't you tell me? Am I the first person to know?" I was like, "Yeah." He's like, "Well, thank God." That was all he was worried about, that he wouldn't be the first person. And then the rest of my ... and then, of course, they're marines... And Maddie knows about this. They ask the most inappropriate questions you could possibly imagine. Like, "Do you like to take it up the butt?" Blah, blah, blah. All that stuff. And I would answer in the most thoroughly disgusting and descriptive ways so that they would feel uncomfortable, because if you're going to ask me that question, you're going to get a fucking answer. Yeah, but no, I mean overall it was very well received and I felt more love from my command for coming out then I did from sadly my own family. I love them, but that's really how I felt. I felt like they were much more accepting.
Dylan: So Maddie, I know you didn't come out as trans when you were in the Marines. But once a marine, always a marine, so you came out as a marine. So what was your coming out process?
Maddie: After the Marines, I was in the Air National Guard for 12 years. And it was even after that that I came out. But I didn't think I could ever come out. It didn't seem like anything I could even fathom happening. I just thought people would lose their minds basically. And one skill I learned in the marines is to suck it up. Nobody ever told me that explicitly. There wasn't a drill instructor who said, "If you think you're transgender" ... He did call us ladies a lot.
Dylan: And you were like, "Okay, I'm into this."
Maddie: That's the nicest thing they ever said to me.
Dylan: Yeah. And so, the reason we're on this call is that in a since deleted Facebook post that I actually haven't seen, Tyler wrote in support of the trans ban and then got a lot of pushback. So Tyler, why did you delete it?
Tyler: Yeah, that's a good question. Honestly, I felt like ... This is going to be brutally honest. I'm applying for jobs and I really didn't want this to be something that inhibited my ability to get a job. I basically said that I thought it was ridiculous that the left was arguing in favor of having trans people be able to serve when they're so ardently against the military industrial complex in the first place. And then, later on, people commented back on there that I was a bigot and stuff like that. And that's when I started getting into more intricate arguments in the comments, which were like, "Well, what about the Rand report?"
Dylan: And we all know the comment section is the greatest place to have nuanced conversations.
Tyler: Oh, it's so amazing. [Laughter.] The people are really nice. But I guess my thing was like ... I thought about when I came out in the Marines and when I was deployed, and there was a point when I was so depressed that I wanted to kill myself. And I thought, "What if someone was transitioning when they're in the military, even if they're not deployed?" You're in the Marines too, Maddie, and you know how stressful the Marines is in general. So I thought like, "What would that have been like?" Because arguably coming out as trans especially now is much more challenging than coming out as gay. And so, that was why I was in support of ... I hate calling it the trans ban. That just sounds like so evil-
Dylan: I feel like it is. Well, I think ... Maddie, what would you call it? Do you call it the trans ban?
Maddie: Yeah. I mean, in my mind I think that's really what it is.
Dylan: Okay. So to sum this up, the feeling you had, Tyler, was, "I'm against these tweets."
Tyler: Sure.
Dylan: "But I am for this ban because of the research I'm reading."
Tyler: Yeah. Yeah.
Dylan: And what were these sources for you? So it's the Rand report?
Tyler: Yeah, it's Rand-something report, which outlined the budget. And then, I just looked up basic information about how long it takes to transition and what hormone therapy does to people. And so, I thought, "Man, maybe it would be better if trans people weren't able to serve because, I mean, A, it might even help them out because that's going to be really challenging for them. But also, overall readiness of the military."
Maddie: When it comes to a strong military, I think it doesn't make the military more strong to ask people to hide who they are, because that's an exhausting thing to do. And it also goes against what I consider the greatest values of the military, the integrity of the members. I think it might actually make the military weaker to ask trans people to hide who they are. And trans people, I mean, they aren't monolithic, though. Some trans people don't opt for any medical intervention and some do to varying degrees.
Tyler: I mean, I guess I just always thought ... I didn't think that trans people didn't. I just viewed them all as wanting to transition. I guess I just didn't really know that there were people in the trans community that maybe didn't.
Maddie: Yeah. I mean, transition means different things to different people. I think unfortunately, issues surrounding trans people are made out to be political issues. That's how they're filtered down into what people hear about trans people. But I don't actually think it's a political issue.
Dylan: I was talking about Don't Ask Don't Tell earlier, and you were saying the policy sounds better than it is because, yes, in theory Don't Ask Don't Tell is like, "Just stay closeted, but you can be gay." And in theory, the trans ban, like you were expressing Tyler, is like, "Well, it doesn't make sense on paper in this way that is presented to me," and I'm not blaming you for that. I'm saying like, you were reading this report that presented trans identity in a pretty monolithic way. And I think the trans ban might have the same effect. When legislation or when policy says, "We're banning this group of people," or, "We're literally silencing these group of people," as Don't Ask Don't Tell did, you're also leading people to create biases.
Maddie: Just looking at the culture in the Marine Corps, it won't move unless it's pushed along by the leadership.
Dylan: We started this conversation just talking about the trans ban, but we've invoked Don't Ask Don't Tell. Don't Ask Don't Tell, would not have allowed you, Tyler, to enlist in the marines. And as we know, the trans ban would ban you, Maddie, from joining. So first I want to ask Tyler, where would you be if you are not allowed to enlist in the marines?
Tyler: That's a good question. That is a good question. I couldn't tell you, but I mean, I can tell you how good it's been for me. Maybe I wouldn't have free college. I wouldn't have lived in Hawaii. I wouldn't have traveled the world. I wouldn't have some of the friends that I have. I wouldn't have the skill sets that I have of just being able to be resilient. I mean, it would have really hurt my life, for sure. Yeah, definitely.
Dylan: Maddie, same question to you. Where would you be without the Marines?
Maddie: I'd definitely be in a different place. It's hard to imagine because it was so formative for me, and I can trace so much back to the Marines. Yeah. I mean, life would've been much duller, I think, for sure. And having the experience of serving in the Marines is unlike anything else, so it's hard to even imagine.
Tyler: I don't know. I just want to say thanks. You're the first a transgender marine I've ever met in my life.
Maddie: Awesome.
Tyler: Via phone. And it's really awesome to meet you and ... I don't know. I guess I just appreciate you explaining ... Well, talking with me in the first place. And then also, not, I don't know, being upset that I had questions and maybe dissenting opinions on the policy that obviously isn't in place in the first place. And I also wanted to say, you're super brave for serving, especially years before I did when it was probably a much more hostile place for anybody in the LGBTQ spectrum. I guess that's it, and thanks. Yeah, thanks.
Maddie: It's so awesome to meet you and hear your story, and thank you so much for coming on here and letting me share my story too. And I can't imagine what you went through coming out while you're deployed, and I'm just in awe of you having the bravery to do that. So that's where I am right now.
Tyler: Wow. Thanks.
Maddie: No, I think that's amazing. And yeah, thanks for being open and discussing this stuff. I think it's definitely an open story. We'll see where the story leads. One thing I like to think about ... I transitioned myself, but ... I may be in the driver's seat, but I think everybody around me is a passenger. So I think we're all on this story together, so I'm hopeful. I think it's exciting and it's just great to get to talk about this with you.
Tyler: Yeah, agreed.
Dylan: Well, that feels like a wonderful place to leave this. Thank you both so much for being on this call.
Tyler: Thank you.
Maddie: Thank you, Dylan.
Dylan: I guess we'll all see each other on the internet.
Tyler: We will.
Maddie: Great.
Dylan: Okay. Bye, Maddie.
[Phone call ends with a hang up sound. The drumbeat from ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals kicks in.]
Dylan [VOICEOVER CLOSING CREDITS]: If you'd like to be a guest on this show and take your own online conversation and move it offline, please visit www.ConversationsWithPeopleWhoHateMe.com for more information.
"Conversations With People Who Hate Me" is a production of Night Vale Presents. Vincent Cacchione is the Sound Engineer and Mixer. Christy Gressman is the Executive Producer. The theme song is "These Dark Times" by Caged Animals. The logo was designed by Rob Wilson. And this podcast was created, produced, and hosted by me, Dylan Marron.
Special thanks to Adam Cecil, Emily Moler, and our publicist, Megan Larson.
We'll be releasing episodes every other week, so I'll see you in two weeks with a brand new conversation.
Until then, remember: there's a human on the other side of the screen.
[Chorus of ‘These Darks Times’ by Caged Animals plays.]