EPISODE 1: YOU’RE A PIECE OF SHIT
Dylan: There is a lot that you and I disagree on.
Chris: I know this.
Dylan: (laughing) Right? As you know I'm "a piece of shit."
Chris: Let me take that back. Let me take that back and I didn't mean to call you a piece of shit. I apologize for calling you a piece of shit.
[Instrumental of "These Dark Times" by Caged Animals begins to play.]
Dylan [VOICEOVER INTRODUCTION]: Hi, I'm Dylan Marron and welcome to Conversations With People Who Hate Me, a podcast where I have extended conversations offline with some of the people who have sent me the most negative or hateful messages online.
Now before we begin, I should let you know: this podcast is not a debate, nor is it an attempt to epically shut down the people who have agreed to speak with me.
This podcast is also not a search for "common ground." On the contrary, some of my guests and I have no common ground other than the fact that we're humans who have agreed to talk to each other. Conversations With People Who Hate Me is an experiment to see what happens when two people with very different views of the world listen to each other.
Now, the final piece of business before we begin is, who is the "me" in the title? Well, hey, it's me. I'm Dylan Marron and I'm a writer, performer and video maker, and almost all of my work exists online. My videos focus on social justice issues and have gained a lot of support, but also have attracted a good amount of hate.
In 2015 I created a series called Every Single Word where I edited down popular movies to only the word spoken by people of color. The series was picked up by media around the world, and shared widely.
In May of 2016 just as the trans bathroom bills were picking up steam, I created and hosted an interview series called Sitting In Bathrooms With Trans People where, just as the title suggests, I interviewed trans folks in the very spot where they were being legislated against.
Jackson [CLIP FROM ‘SITTING IN BATHROOMS WITH TRANS PEOPLE EPISODE 1’]: The thing that really started happening was I would be in the women's room and get these double takes, and I would see women scared of my presence in there. Even though I do not look intimidating in any way. (laughing)
Dylan [CLIP FROM ‘SITTING IN BATHROOMS WITH TRANS PEOPLE EPISODE 1’]: You're terrifying.
Jackson [CLIP FROM ‘SITTING IN BATHROOMS WITH TRANS PEOPLE EPISODE 1’]: I know. I know.
Dylan [CLIP FROM ‘SITTING IN BATHROOMS WITH TRANS PEOPLE EPISODE 1’]: I see you, and right when you walked in, we all gasped. (Jackson laughs)
Dylan [VOICEOVER INTRODUCTION cont’d]: I also make satirical videos, like this one that celebrates the fictional holiday, Heterosexual Pride Day, after a very vocal group of straight folks started asking why they didn't have a pride day for themselves.
Dylan [CLIP FROM ‘HAPPY HETEROSEXUAL PRIDE DAY’]: (Overly cheery music plays) Today's Friday, or Saturday, or Sunday, or Monday, or Tuesday, or Wednesday, or it's Thursday, which means it is Heterosexual Pride Day.
Dylan [VOICEOVER INTRODUCTION cont’d]: Now, probably my most controversial series is Unboxing. You know, the real unboxing videos where YouTubers open up the latest electronic gadgets? Well, I satirized them by making a series that unboxes intangible ideologies like Islamophobia, rape culture, and police brutality.
Dylan [CLIP FROM ‘UNBOXING THE MISTREATMENT OF NATIVE AMERICANS’]: Here's a product as old as the country that made it. Today, I'm unboxing The Mistreatment of Native Americans. This one is an antique that dates back to the 1490s.
Dylan [VOICEOVER INTRODUCTION cont’d]: The work I do has gained many fans, but it has also found its very vocal detractors online, which brings us to right now, the very first episode of Conversations With People Who Hate Me, where I speak to one of those detractors on the phone. And today, I'm speaking to Chris.
A little while ago, Chris sent me this message:
"When the police aren't there, sensitive young men like you will be the first to go. I have to assume you've never checked your comments or like/dislike ratio because I've never seen one so poor. I worry that you will blame this on white cis men, but please look closer. It's the people that you are championing that hate you; ie. you are doing something very, very bad. Proceed.”
“Guy, I'm sorry. One last message. You are talking with those Muslim women and you told them that there has been a lot of talk about a Muslim registry and that there was a Muslim registry with George Bush. So you said a total lie that could have made them scared and made you look like a social justice warrior and American men as monsters. So that's why you are a piece of shit. Good thing nobody watches your shit. You're so dumb. You regularly say things that 100% makes the situation worse, and you do it to signal how virtuous you are. Again, good thing nobody watches your shit, but hey, you're probably getting 10 bucks a video, so whatever."
Okay. Well, awesome, and we're going to call Chris right now.
[Phone rings. Music fades. Guest picks up.]
Chris: Hello?
Dylan: Hi, is this Chris?
Chris: This is Chris!
Dylan: Hi Chris, this is Dylan Marron! How are you?
Chris: I'm doing fine, thank you.
Dylan: Okay.
Chris: Busy day. I had to fix my car and I had to fix my washing machine.
Dylan: Oh!
Chris: Let me get my dogs out of the room.
Dylan: (laughing) Okay, that sounds good.
Chris: Hold on one second. (now talking to his dogs) Cinnamon! Both of you's! Go!
Chris: Okay. Much better.
Dylan: So, Chris. (laughs)
Chris: (laughing) Oh, like I said to you before, I had a couple of cocktails in me, but let me tell you, I stand by most of what I say. I do stand by most of what I said, not about you personally, but about social justice warriors. So that's really where my issue lies, and that they want to- certain people want to turn over the whole country, in order to solve small problems. Like, let me give you an example. The LGBT community. L-G-B-T... whatever letters they're adding onto it now, there's always been gay people, they've always been fine, getting along fine in life. And I'm a supporter of gay marriage by the way, but I don't think that they need a whole list of rights. They're people. It's like saying redhead rights, or left-handed people rights. It just seems all silly to me. The whole social justice stuff seems silly to me.
Dylan: All right. I mean, so clearly there is a lot that you and I disagree on.
Chris: I know this!
Dylan: (laughing) Right. As you know, I'm "a piece of shit."
Chris: Ah- let me take that back. Let me take that back. I was- you had caught me at a bad time. I didn't need to call you a piece of shit. I apologize for calling you a piece of shit.
Dylan: That's okay. I want to lovingly point out, you said I "caught you at a bad time," but you mean that you saw my videos at a bad time, right?
Chris: Well, for the most part, yeah, me and my wife were going over to them yesterday. My wife, by the way, is a big fan of yours.
Dylan: Oh wow. Okay! So one fan in the household-
Chris: Yeah, she's a liberal. I'm surrounded by them. (laughing)
Dylan: Okay, well I'm sorry and you're welcome, depending on how you want to take this. (Chris laughs). What was it about me, and what was it about my videos that got to you so much that you had to send the message that you did?
Chris: I'll tell you what, it was one little thing. You called it racist for somebody to say that the black community and the minority community has a criminality problem. "Black on black crime." And you had mentioned that it was racist. And I'm like, "how is that racist?! These are the facts!"
Dylan: And, and you saw-
Chris: And I saw you are a nice kid. You're a smart kid, you're young. How old are you by the way? If you don't mind me asking.
Dylan: No, I don't mind. I'm 28.
Chris: Okay. Oh, you look younger than that. I figured you 22.
Dylan: Well, Chris, I get carded at rated R movies. (Chris laughs). So I think people think I look like I'm 16.
Chris: So I think your heart's in the right place. And I just think that in many ways you're misguided, and I'm sure you feel the same way about me, that I'm misguided. But that's why there's two extremes of the political spectrum.
Dylan: So I don't want to put words in your mouth, so correct me if I'm wrong. I was kind of like the image of the social justice warrior. Right?
Chris: Right, right.
Dylan: And how would you define a social justice warrior? Don't worry, I won't be offended.
Chris: To me, a social justice warrior is, for the most part, a rich college student who has- his parent, mom and daddy pay for everything, and they pick and choose these subjects to be angry about, in a world where people really generally don't have that much to be angry about. I think you're a fine young man. There's nothing wrong with you. My problem is with social justice, I'm against things like Black Lives Matter. I don't think it helps anybody. I think it hurts. And I am a staunch conservative.
Dylan: Saying that Black Lives Matter is a problem is tough to hear. Only because I feel like that is a movement that is rooted in just saying a group of people's lives matter. And do you disagree with that?
Chris: No, of course I don't disagree with that, but I'm saying that what they concentrate on is the minutia of the killings. The problem with the police in my opinion, and my father is a retired policeman and he'll tell you the same thing, is two things. It is a lack of training, where they don't receive the training that they need. They're put there for a couple months and then sent into scary situations, but I don't think it's necessarily a racial matter. There are some racist cops, but let's look at the black fatalities at the hands of criminals. And I know that you think saying black criminality is a problem is racist, but I don't agree. I think that there is a problem with criminality in the minority community.
Dylan: I don't want to be speaking in circles because I feel like you could argue your side and I could argue my side, which is only in an attempt to be an ally to the black community, but I don't know that talking back and forth about this will necessarily get us anywhere.
Chris: I don't think so either. I don't think so either. I think we're very far apart on this. I think we're very far apart, but don't lay claim to caring more about the black community. I love my black friends. I know that saying that means I'm racist, to say if I have black friends, to use that. But that's another thing the left does, is they take away evidence of a white person not being racist by saying that in a deep imitating voice "Oh, if you have black friends, that doesn't mean you're not black- it doesn't mean you're not racist." Well, it means you're not very racist. Right? So.
Dylan: Have you ever been called racist?
Chris: Sure. Well the time online, but I don't think of myself as a racist.
Dylan: But you feel-
Chris: I think most people aren't really racist. I mean everyone has a little bit, but-
Dylan: So how do you feel when someone calls you racist?
Chris: It doesn't bother me, because it happens so often. Mainly because a lot of times when people don't have an answer for what you say, they resort to "You're a racist." If I am acting as a racist, then it may bother me. In my opinion. And it's a little how I feel. If I don't feel I'm being racist, if I'm just stating facts, things that I know, things that I've seen, then I don't feel that it's being racist. I think that a lot of the racist are strawmen. You're talking about when they say, Oh KKK, fascist USA, well who's the KKK? 30 guys down South with pickup trucks? They're strawmen, they don't really exist.
Dylan: I mean I think sadly it's more than 30 guys.
Chris: Well. Maybe. But I don't think it's a situation where... I mean we have set asides and we have affirmative action for black people, and I'm glad that we do because before we had slavery, and we had Jim Crow for decades, and it was horrible. You think back to, what? We had separate water fountains? Give me a break. It was so ridiculous. So they got rid of that thankfully, and we even things out. It's not perfect, but we have set asides, and we have affirmative action, and I'm for those things. I'm for those things.
Dylan: You're saying that colored water fountains, that is bullshit, right? That should've left. Right.
Chris: Of course. Of course.
Dylan: And then there are things in the past, but I also think to be fair, that decades from now, someone in the future might be saying, "well there was racist stuff going on in 2017 but now that's over. I just can't deal with this stuff." Right?
Chris: Perhaps, perhaps. I don't necessarily disagree with that.
Dylan: We also have to acknowledge that neither you nor I are black. So we don't know what it's like-
Chris: Right.
Dylan: ... firsthand to be a black person dealing with the police.
Chris: Very true. Very true. Very true. I'm not trying to vilify black people, because they're Americans. Actually, if you want to talk about- (laughs) if you want to talk about who I have more problem with, I have more of a problem with illegal aliens. (laughing) They've been here for hundreds of years. My grandfather was a butcher from Italy. So they are- black people more American than us. I have no issue with black people.
Dylan: Right, but you're saying you do have an issue with undocumented immigrants?
Chris: (laughs) No, I don't have an issue with them either. They're in general hard working people, I have no problem with people who are here who want to be Americans. It's just that if we make everybody an American, then being an American is going to lose its value. There's a lot of value to being an American citizen.
[BREAK]
Chris: There's a lot of value to being an American citizen. A lot of value.
Dylan: Yeah. And I think a lot of undocumented immigrants see that value and would like to be American citizens.
Chris: I know.
Dylan: And I think the path to immigration is so hard for people, right?
Chris: It is. It is. It is difficult. I'm not saying it's not.
Dylan: Right. And I mean it is worthwhile to acknowledge that both your family and my family were immigrants at one time.
Chris: Yes.
Dylan: And the people who actually were truly never immigrants to this land have been fucked over the most. Right? Native Americans.
Chris: Right. I totally agree with you. I totally agree with you.
Dylan: Like the Dakota Access-
Chris: I agree with you that native Americans have been mistreated in the past. I do agree. Now they're all rich. Now they're all casino owners.
Dylan: I mean, I don't think that's true. I think there's extreme poverty among Native American communities because of colonialist-
Chris: No, I agree with you. I agree with you. No, there is.
Dylan: So where do you stand on something like the Dakota Access Pipeline?
Chris: I'm a fan of fossil fuels. (laughs).
Dylan: Okay!
Chris: I am, I am! It puts people to work! It energized this world! It gave us what we have! It was the industrial revolution, coal and all that. It's the industrial revolution! And yes, I don't believe in global warming. I believe in climate change. I don't believe that it's as accelerated as they say. It may be, but I think if that's the case, I don't think there's much we can do to really stop that unless we all go back to the stone age. I'm a Western chauvinist. Our way of life relies on fossil fuels right now, and there's not that much we can do about it.
Dylan: So Chris. Okay. It feels like there's a lot that we, like, so strongly disagree about. Right?
Chris: I know.
Dylan: How do you think someone like you and someone like me can keep having productive conversations?
Chris: Well, I think we're having a decent conversation now.
Dylan: Yeah.
Chris: I'm being civil, but not saying things like I said to you (laughs) when I texted you.
Dylan: Let me go back to the notes.
Chris: Because those are non-starters, and also by not saying, "Oh you feel this way because you're racist..." Because that kind of talk that's used shuts down conversation. Okay. Once you call someone a racist without really knowing them, and I'm not saying you did, I'm just saying that when people do that, that's got to stop, because then there's no conversation. We have to be civil with each other, like you and I are being today.
Dylan: Okay. So-
Chris: That's the way to do it.
Dylan: I actually agree with you about being civil, but I also just want to say, I think the viewpoints that I have don't have a direct impact on your life. Right? Like, they don't- my viewpoints don't change your way of life, right?
Chris: Not at all. No sir.
Dylan: But I would say, so let's take one specific thing you brought up saying that the LGBTQIA+ community...
Chris: (laughs)
Dylan: Yes. Those are the words! Those are the letters in the acronym.
Chris: What are they again? Give it to me one more time so I get them right.
Dylan: Oh wow. Okay, great. L-G... L-G-B-T... Oh my God. I'm getting it wrong now! (laughs)
Chris: (laughs) It's not easy. You got to keep up with it.
Dylan: You got to keep up with the times, Chris. But the acronyms now are LGBTQIA+. Um, lesb-
Chris: QIA+. So what is the I, and the A, and the plus?
Dylan: Great questions. Are you ready for it?
Chris: Yes.
Dylan: Okay. It's, I is intersex. The A is asexual, as you know.
Chris: Okay.
Dylan: And the plus is kind of getting ahead of ourselves, and knowing that there are other people involved in this acronym that we might not be identifying yet.
Chris: Got you.
Dylan: Yeah. So-
Chris: See, it used to be: man... Heterosexual male, heterosexual female, homosexual male, homosexual female.
Dylan: Right.
Chris: So I'll catch up. I have no problem with that.I'll catch up. I'll learn. I'll learn the pronouns and the lingo. I don't have an issue with that.
Dylan: Thank you. I mean, the thing I wanted to point out is you said it used to be heterosexual male, heterosexual female, homosexual male, homosexual female. But the truth is, even to just get homosexual male and female onto that foursome, or to add on to that twosome, took a lot of work. Now you said something, Chris, that I really want to talk about because I'm truly interested.
Chris: Sure.
Dylan: ... But you said "these are of course, important issues, but we don't need to talk about them." What do you mean by that?
Chris: I mean, like I was saying before, gay rights, it's almost like left-handed rights and right-handed rights and redhead rights. It's something that we don't always have to... What rights are you talking about? I understand the right to marry. And, okay, there's a bathroom issue. I understand there's a bathroom issue. But you see these people and they're fighting for these rights but they have the rights already. What rights are we talking about? I don't understand what rights they're talking about, what rights the gays need that they don't have now.
Dylan: Well, I can tell you if you're-
Chris: Tell me.
Dylan: Yeah, so I think the reason why I believe that it is very important to talk about this stuff, the very stuff you're saying we shouldn't talk about, is that there are things that cannot be protected by these big laws. Just because I have the right to marry doesn't necessarily mean that legislation is leading the way in protecting me if I am the victim of a hate crime. If that state is saying, well, hate crimes don't really exist, and hate crimes don't cover crimes on the basis of sexuality, gender orientation, or sexual orientation, gender identity, or anything else in the LGBTQIA+ acronym. Um, so these are- I think, um- I'm curious to hear what you say because just to tie up what I'm saying: I think it is important to in fact talk about these issues because there are issues that affect people based on their identity. Do you disagree?
Chris: Yes. But yes and no. And I'll tell you why. Because crimes exist, doing something to somebody whether I see you on the street and somebody comes and punches you in the face, whether because you are gay, whether it be 'cause you called them a jerk, a crime is a crime. And as far as gay men being able to hold hands in society, the government can't dictate how that happens. Society has to change. And it is changing.
Dylan: So Chris, you are, just so that people watching or listening to this know you are not a gay man, right?
Chris: No, I'm a cisgendered straight male, married for 20 years to a beautiful liberal tree hugging wife who I love, who's a registered nurse and I'm a CAT scan technologist.
Dylan: Great.
Chris: 25 years, and I have two children.
Dylan: So Chris, the only reason I asked that is to say that I am a gay man, and I understand that laws protect against crime, but my husband and I don't hold hands in the street because of the shit we get for it.
Chris: And your opinion, it has much more validity than mine does in this area. I have no problem with bowing to your experience in this area.
Dylan: Well, that's interesting. Would you be willing to apply the same generosity that you just gave to me by saying that my opinion is more valid in this area when you're talking about things like Black Lives Matter to a black person who is-
Chris: I would, except that a lot of people, not definitely, a good percentage of black people do not support Black Lives Matter. A good portion of black people voted for Donald Trump. Maybe not all of them. Maybe not half of them, but I don't feel that Black Lives Matter has the eyes and ears of the entire black community. I don't feel that way at all.
Dylan: So, okay. Rather than speaking on these issues, and again, acknowledging that even if this conversation were 10 hours long, we wouldn't necessarily start seeing each other's side.
Chris: (laughing) We wouldn't. We wouldn't.
Dylan: Okay.
Chris: 'Cause there's two sides to the argument.
Dylan: I would argue that there aren't two sides to the argument when one side of the argument is disrespecting human life. But I still think a conversation like the one we're having is crucial to understand how people think who might think differently from you.
Chris: I agree.
Dylan: When did you start identifying as a conservative?
Chris: It happened later in life and I'll tell ya: I was a liberal, I was pro choice. I was very, very liberal and outspoken about it until I was about 35 years old. I used to be very pro-choice, and I would look in the science books for children, gestation, and when it begins, and when the heartbeat begins, and when brainwaves begin, and it just occurred to me that life begins at conception. Life begins at conception.
Dylan: Chris, are there any questions that you have for me?
Chris: No. No. I think, uh- I don't dislike you. I don't dislike you, (both laugh) even though I said I did.
Dylan: You don't dislike me. Okay.
Chris: We disagree on a lot of stuff. We disagree on a lot of stuff and that's fine. That's fine.
Dylan: Has this conversation helped you at all?
Chris: I think so. I think so. Just to show that two people, so ideologically polarized, can have a good conversation without shouting "racist," "dirtbag," to each other. I think there's something good there. There's something good there. It went better than I thought it would.
Dylan: Oh, how did you think it was going to go?
Chris: Contentious. (laughs)
Dylan: Oh. So Chris, this podcast is actually called Conversations With People Who Hate Me. Do you hate me?
Chris: (laughs hard)
Dylan: Do you hate me?
Chris: In order to put it on, do I have to say yes? 'Cause I will.
Dylan: No, no. (Chris laughs) In fact, I... Don't-
Chris: I no longer hate you, Dylan.
Dylan: You no longer hate me. So you did.
Chris: I no longer hate you.
Dylan: Why don't you-
Chris: You're a nice guy.
Dylan: Why don't you hate me anymore?
Chris: You won! You won!
Dylan: No, wait, no, no, no. It's not about winning or losing! Let's-
Chris: You know why? No, no. Because you're willing to listen. I'm listening to you. You're listening to me. And that's the most important thing. We don't agree. And that's fine. But these conversations need to be had.
Dylan: You said you have a liberal wife and you said you would disagree on most issues. Do you guys not talk about politics?
Chris: We- I had a difficult time when Trump won.
Dylan: With-
Chris: I had a difficult life for about a week. (laughs)
Dylan: Just a week?
Chris: She was not happy. I was banished from the bedroom. (laughs) I shit you not. (laughs)
Dylan: Okay.
Chris: I was banished from the bedroom and I still- we can't talk politics. We used to talk politics all the time. But ever since Donald Trump won, I don't know. Maybe she feels like I got a leg up or something, but we can not. We start arguing. So we decided to put politics aside for a while. Actually it got brought up again yesterday, when I told her that I was going to be speaking to you, and we started watching some of your unboxing videos and some of your interview videos, and she's like, "I like him more than I like you."
Dylan: Oh well. Oh, okay. (Chris laughs) Well maybe the next series I do is Conversations With The Wives of The People Who Hate Me.
Chris: Right. That would be a good one. You would get a lot of agreement there.
Dylan: But is there anything that you're going to do differently now that we've had this conversation?
Chris: I tell you what, I'm going to listen. Because it's important.
Dylan: All right. Well Chris, thank you so much. We deeply disagree.
Chris: You're welcome. I thank you for contacting me, reaching out to me.
Dylan: Please. Thank you for... I mean to give credit, you are the first one to contact me, and you said I'm "doing something very, very bad."
Chris: (deep laughs)
Dylan: so here we are.
Chris: Keep up the bad work.
Dylan: I'll keep up the bad work and I hope that you will keep listening.
Chris: Okay.
Dylan: Okay, well have a good one, Chris.
Chris: You too, pal. Nice talking to you.
Dylan: Nice talking to you too. Bye.
Chris: All right. Bye.
[Phone call ends with a hang up sound. The drumbeat from ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals kicks in.]
Dylan [VOICEOVER CLOSING CREDITS]: Conversations With People Who Hate Me is a production of Night Vale Presents. Christy Gressman is the executive producer. Vincent Cacchione is the sound engineer and mixer. Alan Rahimic is the production manager. The theme song is These Dark Times by Caged Animals and this podcast was created, produced, and hosted by me, Dylan Marron.
Special thanks to Night Vale Presents director of marketing, Adam Cecil, our publicist Christine Ragasa, and also Dustin Flannery-McCoy, Rob Silcox, Mark Maloney, and production assistants Alison Goldberger and Emily Moler.
Thank you to all of those who gave feedback and encouragement throughout this process. And thank you also to those who warned me against doing this project. I did it anyway. And yes, thank you to those who wrote the hateful messages, comments, and posts that inspired me to turn one way negativity into productive two way conversations.
Thanks so much for listening and we will be back next week with another conversation.
And remember, there is a human on the other side of the screen.
[Chorus of ‘These Darks Times’ by Caged Animals plays.]